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Obama, Cuba, and Us

Thrilla said:
how exactly do you do " honest commerce" with a regime that literally stole all foreign owned property, completely negated all private property rights, and dramatically increased taxes in all imports from the US?... not too mention directly supporting our primary enemy in the world ( USSR) in word and deed.

the sensible reaction to all of that is to say " ok, **** you... we're done... you get no trade, no tourism, no nothing from the US".... there is literally no sense in rewarding such a regime with commerce, trade, tourism, or anything... just cut ties altogether and be done with them.

if they really want closer ties with the US, they can start by paying our business the 7 billion dollars they stole.... and maybe signing a treaty that they won't steal from us again, or support sworn enemies.
for that, we'd let the Castors stay in power, and we could give them a lil taste of commerce... .a very small one at first ( ya can't trust thieves).


and besides all that, why would anyone want ot normalize relations with a bullying imperialist country?.... if we're so bad as you think we are, what could we possibly offer them but additional hardship and damage?... maybe it would be smart of the Castro's to refuse normalized realtions with the great satan. :roll:
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Thrilla thrilla thrilla, you have no idea about the history surrounding Cuba. Before Castro started to nationalize all businesses within Cuba the US had already started making plans to overthrow Castro and they already started bombing Cuban targets. All this has been pointed out to you before.
 
Militant_Vegan_ said:
50 years later and they are still defying us. have you been in a coma for 60 years?
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no, I've been quite awake, for 63 years, in fact.

I don't care if they defy us... that's their business.
our business is in how we react to said defiance.....not having relations with them is a valid and rational policy.
rewarding said defiance is not the proper course of action, until said defiance ceases.
if that take 1 day or a 100 years.. it doesn't matter.
 
Tuatara said:
Thrilla thrilla thrilla, you have no idea about the history surrounding Cuba. Before Castro started to nationalize all businesses within Cuba the US had already started making plans to overthrow Castro and they already started bombing Cuban targets. All this has been pointed out to you before.
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ahh yes, the internet, where perfect strangers somehow know what other people know or don't know.

your timeline is off, Ike initially recognized the Castro government, and nothing " untoward" was done until after Castro began his agrarian reforms and nationalizations....it wasn't until after Castro's charm offensive that the US signed off on covert regime change.
...as the nationalizations and reform took hold, more covert efforts were enacted... including enlisting exiled Cubans to launch offensive attacks against the regime.

I don't care what you think you have gone over with me.. or what your opinion even is, for that matter.... but i'm not surprised your sympathetic to the Castro regime , despite the Castro regime being very very far from liberal, modern US liberals are adoring of the commie regime, for some explainable reason.
 
katzgar said:
you need to get a grip, it is freakin Cuba.
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You do realize that we almost went into WW3 because of "freakin Cuba"? You realize 9/11 was planned in "freakin Afghanistan"? You understand WW1 started because of events in "freakin Bosnia"?
 
NonConformer said:
Commerce, trade, and tourism does not "reward" the regime - rather, it helps the Cuban PEOPLE, and demonstrates to them: hey, commerce and trade and tourism are BETTER for us Cubans than this socialist crap our government is selling us!

And it's good for us Americans, too.

Side note: I long for the day I can sail my boat to Cuba. I hear it's a gorgeous place!
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yes, it does reward the regime, the vast majority of enterprises in Cuba are owned by the regime..... but you're correct in in opining it's good for the Cuban people.
then again, the Cuban people keep Castro in power, so i'm not really interested in helping them at this point...... they have the govt they want and deserve... a very illiberal totalitarian govt.

no, it's not really "good" for the US... there's no substantial benefit whatsoever..... not in comparison to the benefit the Castros are enjoying, anyways.

I've been to Cuba a number of times (mostly to Gitmo, though).. its a nice island.... I prefer other Caribbean destinations, though... they are much better in every way imaginable ( except for Haiti... Haiti is mostly a ****hole... it's much much better next door in the DR)
 
The whole Cuban thing annoys me to no end.

Was Castro a bad man who did bad things to his people? Yes.

Did our embargo push Castro out of power? No.

Did our embargo hurt the Castro regime more than it hurt the Cuban people that suffered under it? No.
 
Mr Person said:
The whole Cuban thing annoys me to no end.

Was Castro a bad man who did bad things to his people? Yes.

Did our embargo push Castro out of power? No.

Did our embargo hurt the Castro regime more than it hurt the Cuban people that suffered under it? No.
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the Cuban people keep Castro propped up as their dictator...they, by and large, are not hapless victims of the regime, they are willing accomplices.
 
Thrilla said:
the Cuban people keep Castro propped up as their dictator...they, by and large, are not hapless victims of the regime, they are willing accomplices.
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what puerile nonsense.
 
Thrilla said:
ahh yes, the internet, where perfect strangers somehow know what other people know or don't know.

your timeline is off, Ike initially recognized the Castro government, and nothing " untoward" was done until after Castro began his agrarian reforms and nationalizations....it wasn't until after Castro's charm offensive that the US signed off on covert regime change.
...as the nationalizations and reform took hold, more covert efforts were enacted... including enlisting exiled Cubans to launch offensive attacks against the regime.

I don't care what you think you have gone over with me.. or what your opinion even is, for that matter.... but i'm not surprised your sympathetic to the Castro regime , despite the Castro regime being very very far from liberal, modern US liberals are adoring of the commie regime, for some explainable reason.
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Please, by all means, dispute anything in this timeline. Bay of Pigs Chronology

Pointing out the barbaric and terrorist actions of the US does not mean Castro gets automatic support. Castro is worthy of criticism but before you or anyone else does you need to look at the actual facts and not the propagandized distortion the US government and US media fed you.
 
Thrilla said:
the Cuban people keep Castro propped up as their dictator...they, by and large, are not hapless victims of the regime, they are willing accomplices.
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Which ones? The cronies or the peasants? Where are you even getting that?


Either way, the embargo hasn't had the intended effect. Time to stop denying real patriots their fine cigars.
 
Mr Person said:
Which ones? The cronies or the peasants? Where are you even getting that?


Either way, the embargo hasn't had the intended effect. Time to stop denying real patriots their fine cigars.
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there are only a couple of Cuban cigars worth a damn.... Nicaraguans and Dominicans are better, nearly across the board. (Nicaraguans dominated the field the last few years )

what was the intended effect of the embargo?
 
Tuatara said:
Please, by all means, dispute anything in this timeline. Bay of Pigs Chronology

Pointing out the barbaric and terrorist actions of the US does not mean Castro gets automatic support. Castro is worthy of criticism but before you or anyone else does you need to look at the actual facts and not the propagandized distortion the US government and US media fed you.
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I don't need to dispute that timeline, it reflects exactly what I said....

and why are you whining about what the US government "feeds us" when you provided a link based entirely on declassified US govt documents?.... seems rather hypocritical.
 
Thrilla said:
there are only a couple of Cuban cigars worth a damn.... Nicaraguans and Dominicans are better, nearly across the board. (Nicaraguans dominated the field the last few years )

what was the intended effect of the embargo?
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oh cool, you smoke.
 
Thrilla said:
I don't need to dispute that timeline, it reflects exactly what I said....

and why are you whining about what the US government "feeds us" when you provided a link based entirely on declassified US govt documents?.... seems rather hypocritical.
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Yes, everything in those declassified documents the government and the media were not reporting. In fact the US has been doing an ongoing propaganda operation against Cuba for many years.

Please read this

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Lx...=onepage&q=us propaganda against cuba&f=false

Also:

Demonizing Fidel Castro: ?Normalization? and the Thrust of Anti-Cuba Propaganda | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
U.S. Aggression & Propaganda Against Cuba Why the unrelieved U.S. antagonism toward Cuba? by Michael Parenti
 
Thrilla said:
ahh yes, the internet, where perfect strangers somehow know what other people know or don't know.

your timeline is off, Ike initially recognized the Castro government, and nothing " untoward" was done until after Castro began his agrarian reforms and nationalizations....it wasn't until after Castro's charm offensive that the US signed off on covert regime change.
...as the nationalizations and reform took hold, more covert efforts were enacted... including enlisting exiled Cubans to launch offensive attacks against the regime.

I don't care what you think you have gone over with me.. or what your opinion even is, for that matter.... but i'm not surprised your sympathetic to the Castro regime , despite the Castro regime being very very far from liberal, modern US liberals are adoring of the commie regime, for some explainable reason.
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You need to either check your memory banks or do a bit of reading. Ike didn't "recognize" the Castro government, in fact when Castro came to the States shortly after taking over, Pres. Eisenhower refused to meet with him.

Castro instituted a lot of social improvements for the poorest Cubans which of course irritated those Cubans who had done well under Batista - who was such a 'nice' guy, the Mafia just loved him. The fact the communist government in Cuba did much which benefitted a majority of Cubans does not mean they were to be seen as a regime for any one to emulate. Yes, the Castroites killed a few thousand fellow Cubans but then Batista had also killed a few thousand during his years in power.

Your statement, "modern US liberals are adoring of the commie regime" is complete and utter bull ****. Liberals however are willing to acknowledge that some of the problems in Cuba are a direct result of American actions even while accepting that the Castro regime has punished far too many innocents. American actions against Cuba have been used as excuses to punish Cubans who did little more than express a desire for more personal freedom.

Sometimes demanding a nation's leaders do only what the establishment in Washington wants is not the best way to advance relations.
 
Eric7216 said:
You do realize that we almost went into WW3 because of "freakin Cuba"? You realize 9/11 was planned in "freakin Afghanistan"? You understand WW1 started because of events in "freakin Bosnia"?
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you need to realize the cuba missile crisis had nothing to do with cuba. you need to realize time marches on. get a grip.
 
Tuatara said:
Please, by all means, dispute anything in this timeline. Bay of Pigs Chronology
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I can't. I wasn't there. I was offered a commission in the group but refused it. That turned out to be a good decision.

Pointing out the barbaric and terrorist actions of the US does not mean Castro gets automatic support. Castro is worthy of criticism but before you or anyone else does you need to look at the actual facts and not the propagandized distortion the US government and US media fed you.
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You do understand, don't you, that the U.S. government didn't run the invasion? It may have contributed financially but the invasion was planned and operated by Cuban expats. Some of them were family members of mine.
 
fmw said:
I can't. I wasn't there. I was offered a commission in the group but refused it. That turned out to be a good decision.



You do understand, don't you, that the U.S. government didn't run the invasion? It may have contributed financially but the invasion was planned and operated by Cuban expats. Some of them were family members of mine.
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With direct help from the CIA and backing by the US military.
 
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