• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Top ten problems with Socialism

NonConformer

NonConformer

Banned
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
425
Reaction score
211
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
With Bernie Sanders' popularity rising up in the polls, especially among the younger "millennials", it's time for a quick refresher on why Socialism - and leftism, in general - stinks. Here are the top 10 reasons:

1. It assumes government cares. Government doesn't give a flying flip about you or anybody's welfare. Government is all about power and control over your life and your money. It would be different if government agents were funding all these programs out of their own pockets, but they're not: they're spending someone ELSE'S money, and then getting credit for being "generous".

2. It assumes government knows best. They deny it vehemently, but all leftist-liberal-progressives believe that government has all the answers, government is always right, government can solve all problems, government never makes mistakes. Fact check: government is not a deity.

3. Government is inefficient. A private entity MUST control costs if they want to survive; but government has no such constraints. The vast bulk of tax dollars collected ostensibly to "help" people actually gets consumed by administrative overhead. Most high-ranking government bureaucrats earn 6-digit incomes.

4. Nobody is "entitled" to free stuff. Food, housing, medical care, etc, etc, are all good and services that someBODY has to PRODUCE. Claiming that someone else must work on your behalf to produce these things for you is a form of theft.

5. Free enterprise is the best wealth-creator. Throughout history, the wealthiest nations are those where the people have the freedom to work, to earn, to grow, to achieve. At the bottom of history's trash heap are the tyrannies and dictatorships (see: Soviet Union) where government promised everyone everything.

6. Employers are not the bad guys. Entrepreneurs who figure out what people want & need, invest their own money, take risks, work their butts off, make a profit, create jobs, hire people, and pay them a salary - these are the real heroes of our society. But leftist-liberal-socialists believe that they are villains who must be destroyed. A STRONG ECONOMY is where lots of businesses make lots of profit, and that is what we should all be promoting.

7. Know what free enterprise is NOT. Free enterprise is where businesses operate with neither help nor hindrance from government. Subsidies, favoritism, protectionism, bailouts, and other forms of crony capitalism do not jibe. Furthermore, businesses do NOT have the right to pollute our air and water without accountability. Finally, in a true free market, any form of coercion, fraud, or threats of force cannot be tolerated.

8. It's based on the politics of ENVY. In a free society, those with more intelligence and ambition tend to make more money. Sorry, but we're NOT all created equal. Welcome to life. Deal with it. Don't worry about how much money others earn.

9. If you want to help the poor, then help them. So you say you care about the poor? Then donate your money, your time, whatever you have. Keep government bureaucrats and politicians out of it. And you'll sleep better tonight knowing you truly helped someone today.

10. Put the donor in control. Private charities and philanthropies need donors, but they must PROOVE that they are efficiently helping the poor, else donors will take their money elsewhere. As a voluntary donor, you call the shots! (Too bad we don't have this choice as bureaucracy-funding taxpayers.) Find a charity that will spend your money wisely. Can't find one? Then start your own.
 
NonConformer said:
With Bernie Sanders' popularity rising up in the polls, especially among the younger "millennials", it's time for a quick refresher on why Socialism - and leftism, in general - stinks. Here are the top 10 reasons:

1. It assumes government cares. Government doesn't give a flying flip about you or anybody's welfare. Government is all about power and control over your life and your money. It would be different if government agents were funding all these programs out of their own pockets, but they're not: they're spending someone ELSE'S money, and then getting credit for being "generous".

2. It assumes government knows best. They deny it vehemently, but all leftist-liberal-progressives believe that government has all the answers, government is always right, government can solve all problems, government never makes mistakes. Fact check: government is not a deity.

3. Government is inefficient. A private entity MUST control costs if they want to survive; but government has no such constraints. The vast bulk of tax dollars collected ostensibly to "help" people actually gets consumed by administrative overhead. Most high-ranking government bureaucrats earn 6-digit incomes.

4. Nobody is "entitled" to free stuff. Food, housing, medical care, etc, etc, are all good and services that someBODY has to PRODUCE. Claiming that someone else must work on your behalf to produce these things for you is a form of theft.

5. Free enterprise is the best wealth-creator. Throughout history, the wealthiest nations are those where the people have the freedom to work, to earn, to grow, to achieve. At the bottom of history's trash heap are the tyrannies and dictatorships (see: Soviet Union) where government promised everyone everything.

6. Employers are not the bad guys. Entrepreneurs who figure out what people want & need, invest their own money, take risks, work their butts off, make a profit, create jobs, hire people, and pay them a salary - these are the real heroes of our society. But leftist-liberal-socialists believe that they are villains who must be destroyed. A STRONG ECONOMY is where lots of businesses make lots of profit, and that is what we should all be promoting.

7. Know what free enterprise is NOT. Free enterprise is where businesses operate with neither help nor hindrance from government. Subsidies, favoritism, protectionism, bailouts, and other forms of crony capitalism do not jibe. Furthermore, businesses do NOT have the right to pollute our air and water without accountability. Finally, in a true free market, any form of coercion, fraud, or threats of force cannot be tolerated.

8. It's based on the politics of ENVY. In a free society, those with more intelligence and ambition tend to make more money. Sorry, but we're NOT all created equal. Welcome to life. Deal with it. Don't worry about how much money others earn.

9. If you want to help the poor, then help them. So you say you care about the poor? Then donate your money, your time, whatever you have. Keep government bureaucrats and politicians out of it. And you'll sleep better tonight knowing you truly helped someone today.

10. Put the donor in control. Private charities and philanthropies need donors, but they must PROOVE that they are efficiently helping the poor, else donors will take their money elsewhere. As a voluntary donor, you call the shots! (Too bad we don't have this choice as bureaucracy-funding taxpayers.) Find a charity that will spend your money wisely. Can't find one? Then start your own.
Click to expand...

Socialism is an "ism" and every "ism" should be shunned.
 
NonConformer said:
With Bernie Sanders' popularity rising up in the polls, especially among the younger "millennials", it's time for a quick refresher on why Socialism - and leftism, in general - stinks. Here are the top 10 reasons:

1. It assumes government cares. Government doesn't give a flying flip about you or anybody's welfare. Government is all about power and control over your life and your money. It would be different if government agents were funding all these programs out of their own pockets, but they're not: they're spending someone ELSE'S money, and then getting credit for being "generous".

2. It assumes government knows best. They deny it vehemently, but all leftist-liberal-progressives believe that government has all the answers, government is always right, government can solve all problems, government never makes mistakes. Fact check: government is not a deity.

3. Government is inefficient. A private entity MUST control costs if they want to survive; but government has no such constraints. The vast bulk of tax dollars collected ostensibly to "help" people actually gets consumed by administrative overhead. Most high-ranking government bureaucrats earn 6-digit incomes.

4. Nobody is "entitled" to free stuff. Food, housing, medical care, etc, etc, are all good and services that someBODY has to PRODUCE. Claiming that someone else must work on your behalf to produce these things for you is a form of theft.

5. Free enterprise is the best wealth-creator. Throughout history, the wealthiest nations are those where the people have the freedom to work, to earn, to grow, to achieve. At the bottom of history's trash heap are the tyrannies and dictatorships (see: Soviet Union) where government promised everyone everything.

6. Employers are not the bad guys. Entrepreneurs who figure out what people want & need, invest their own money, take risks, work their butts off, make a profit, create jobs, hire people, and pay them a salary - these are the real heroes of our society. But leftist-liberal-socialists believe that they are villains who must be destroyed. A STRONG ECONOMY is where lots of businesses make lots of profit, and that is what we should all be promoting.

7. Know what free enterprise is NOT. Free enterprise is where businesses operate with neither help nor hindrance from government. Subsidies, favoritism, protectionism, bailouts, and other forms of crony capitalism do not jibe. Furthermore, businesses do NOT have the right to pollute our air and water without accountability. Finally, in a true free market, any form of coercion, fraud, or threats of force cannot be tolerated.

8. It's based on the politics of ENVY. In a free society, those with more intelligence and ambition tend to make more money. Sorry, but we're NOT all created equal. Welcome to life. Deal with it. Don't worry about how much money others earn.

9. If you want to help the poor, then help them. So you say you care about the poor? Then donate your money, your time, whatever you have. Keep government bureaucrats and politicians out of it. And you'll sleep better tonight knowing you truly helped someone today.

10. Put the donor in control. Private charities and philanthropies need donors, but they must PROOVE that they are efficiently helping the poor, else donors will take their money elsewhere. As a voluntary donor, you call the shots! (Too bad we don't have this choice as bureaucracy-funding taxpayers.) Find a charity that will spend your money wisely. Can't find one? Then start your own.
Click to expand...

where did you get this from OP - did you come up with it yourself? its pretty good.
 
This should end well... :roll:
 
NonConformer said:
With Bernie Sanders' popularity rising up in the polls, especially among the younger "millennials", it's time for a quick refresher on why Socialism - and leftism, in general - stinks. Here are the top 10 reasons:

1. It assumes government cares. Government doesn't give a flying flip about you or anybody's welfare. Government is all about power and control over your life and your money. It would be different if government agents were funding all these programs out of their own pockets, but they're not: they're spending someone ELSE'S money, and then getting credit for being "generous".

2. It assumes government knows best. They deny it vehemently, but all leftist-liberal-progressives believe that government has all the answers, government is always right, government can solve all problems, government never makes mistakes. Fact check: government is not a deity.

3. Government is inefficient. A private entity MUST control costs if they want to survive; but government has no such constraints. The vast bulk of tax dollars collected ostensibly to "help" people actually gets consumed by administrative overhead. Most high-ranking government bureaucrats earn 6-digit incomes.

4. Nobody is "entitled" to free stuff. Food, housing, medical care, etc, etc, are all good and services that someBODY has to PRODUCE. Claiming that someone else must work on your behalf to produce these things for you is a form of theft.

5. Free enterprise is the best wealth-creator. Throughout history, the wealthiest nations are those where the people have the freedom to work, to earn, to grow, to achieve. At the bottom of history's trash heap are the tyrannies and dictatorships (see: Soviet Union) where government promised everyone everything.

6. Employers are not the bad guys. Entrepreneurs who figure out what people want & need, invest their own money, take risks, work their butts off, make a profit, create jobs, hire people, and pay them a salary - these are the real heroes of our society. But leftist-liberal-socialists believe that they are villains who must be destroyed. A STRONG ECONOMY is where lots of businesses make lots of profit, and that is what we should all be promoting.

7. Know what free enterprise is NOT. Free enterprise is where businesses operate with neither help nor hindrance from government. Subsidies, favoritism, protectionism, bailouts, and other forms of crony capitalism do not jibe. Furthermore, businesses do NOT have the right to pollute our air and water without accountability. Finally, in a true free market, any form of coercion, fraud, or threats of force cannot be tolerated.

8. It's based on the politics of ENVY. In a free society, those with more intelligence and ambition tend to make more money. Sorry, but we're NOT all created equal. Welcome to life. Deal with it. Don't worry about how much money others earn.

9. If you want to help the poor, then help them. So you say you care about the poor? Then donate your money, your time, whatever you have. Keep government bureaucrats and politicians out of it. And you'll sleep better tonight knowing you truly helped someone today.

10. Put the donor in control. Private charities and philanthropies need donors, but they must PROOVE that they are efficiently helping the poor, else donors will take their money elsewhere. As a voluntary donor, you call the shots! (Too bad we don't have this choice as bureaucracy-funding taxpayers.) Find a charity that will spend your money wisely. Can't find one? Then start your own.
Click to expand...

Every single one of your points is built on a strawman, or is simply inaccurate, or both. I will use your point 4 to illustrate. Let's look at a potential socialized medicine program. It pays for itself with a national sales tax of whatever % would be needed. Nobody is getting free health care, they are paying for it every time they buy something. And yet the program is absolutely socialism. It helps to actually know what you are talking about before explaining the problems with something. Until you learn what socialism is(and in particular what Sanders advocates since you explicitly reference him) before you try and explain the problems with socialism.

And in the meantime, you need to stay off our roads and bridges, since infrastructure work is socialist, and you are taking advantage of free stuff, which you say you are not entitled to.
 
The Standard Operating System in the USA is "Socialize the liabilities, and privatize the profits." That is Corporate Welfare. That is the real Socialism threat, and it is ongoing.
 
Redress said:
Let's look at a potential socialized medicine program. It pays for itself with a national sales tax of whatever % would be needed.

And in the meantime, you need to stay off "OUR" (lol) roads and bridges, since infrastructure work is socialist, and you are taking advantage of free stuff, which you say you are not entitled to.
Click to expand...

nothing "pays for itself"

i notice the left likes to take ownership of things they dont own - OUR SCHOOLS, OUR ROADS, etc but if he's paying gas tax, he's paying for the roads, or at least he was until state and fed govt began to divert these funds to pay for something else
 
Redress said:
you need to stay off our roads and bridges, since infrastructure work is socialist, and you are taking advantage of free stuff, which you say you are not entitled to.
Click to expand...

There are lots of things that are funded via taxes, and yes these goods and services could be called "socialist". You mentioned roads and infrastructure; the list also includes Social Security, the Post Office, air traffic control, and many others. Yes, I am a "consumer" of these services. But, I don't have much of a choice - unless I go live as a hermit on a deserted island. And I cannot simply choose NOT TO PAY for them, else I would be imprisoned for non-payment of taxes.

ALL of these services could be better handled by the free market. (For a discussion on free market roads, see: http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...90-down-government-roads.html?highlight=roads )

The beauty of the free market is that we can choose what products we want or don't want. If some private company tries to sell me worthless, overpriced goods, I can tell them to stuff it. Not so when It comes to government. If you don't like it, don't want it, don't want to pay for it - too bad.
 
NonConformer said:
With Bernie Sanders' popularity rising up in the polls, especially among the younger "millennials", it's time for a quick refresher on why Socialism - and leftism, in general - stinks. Here are the top 10 reasons:

1. It assumes government cares. Government doesn't give a flying flip about you or anybody's welfare. Government is all about power and control over your life and your money. It would be different if government agents were funding all these programs out of their own pockets, but they're not: they're spending someone ELSE'S money, and then getting credit for being "generous".

2. It assumes government knows best. They deny it vehemently, but all leftist-liberal-progressives believe that government has all the answers, government is always right, government can solve all problems, government never makes mistakes. Fact check: government is not a deity.

3. Government is inefficient. A private entity MUST control costs if they want to survive; but government has no such constraints. The vast bulk of tax dollars collected ostensibly to "help" people actually gets consumed by administrative overhead. Most high-ranking government bureaucrats earn 6-digit incomes.

4. Nobody is "entitled" to free stuff. Food, housing, medical care, etc, etc, are all good and services that someBODY has to PRODUCE. Claiming that someone else must work on your behalf to produce these things for you is a form of theft.

5. Free enterprise is the best wealth-creator. Throughout history, the wealthiest nations are those where the people have the freedom to work, to earn, to grow, to achieve. At the bottom of history's trash heap are the tyrannies and dictatorships (see: Soviet Union) where government promised everyone everything.

6. Employers are not the bad guys. Entrepreneurs who figure out what people want & need, invest their own money, take risks, work their butts off, make a profit, create jobs, hire people, and pay them a salary - these are the real heroes of our society. But leftist-liberal-socialists believe that they are villains who must be destroyed. A STRONG ECONOMY is where lots of businesses make lots of profit, and that is what we should all be promoting.

7. Know what free enterprise is NOT. Free enterprise is where businesses operate with neither help nor hindrance from government. Subsidies, favoritism, protectionism, bailouts, and other forms of crony capitalism do not jibe. Furthermore, businesses do NOT have the right to pollute our air and water without accountability. Finally, in a true free market, any form of coercion, fraud, or threats of force cannot be tolerated.

8. It's based on the politics of ENVY. In a free society, those with more intelligence and ambition tend to make more money. Sorry, but we're NOT all created equal. Welcome to life. Deal with it. Don't worry about how much money others earn.

9. If you want to help the poor, then help them. So you say you care about the poor? Then donate your money, your time, whatever you have. Keep government bureaucrats and politicians out of it. And you'll sleep better tonight knowing you truly helped someone today.

10. Put the donor in control. Private charities and philanthropies need donors, but they must PROOVE that they are efficiently helping the poor, else donors will take their money elsewhere. As a voluntary donor, you call the shots! (Too bad we don't have this choice as bureaucracy-funding taxpayers.) Find a charity that will spend your money wisely. Can't find one? Then start your own.
Click to expand...

1. Well corporations certainly don't care about you either.

2. Nobody is saying government is perfect. Conservatives believe the free market can solve all problems. Fact check: the free market is not a deity.

3. There are efficiencies and inefficiencies in both the private and public sector. The state run NHS is far more efficient than the private US health industry, NASA put man on the moon, private organisations have got nowhere near that.

4. Can I presume you don't use public roads, etc?

5. Wealth creation which stayed with the few at the top. If you want see what a capitalist society with no welfare system, just read some Dickens.

6. Nobody says they are. But when they use offshore accounts to avoid tax, or treat employees poorly despite vast profits, then criticism is justified.

8. It's capitalism which is the politics of envy: greed, consumerism and wealth accumulation.

9 & 10. Charities can't meet the demand needed. Someone who needs 24 hour care can't rely on the whims of donations which could dry up at any moment. It was tried in Victorian Britain and didn't succeed.
 
Politicshead said:
Fact check: the free market is not a deity.
There are efficiencies and inefficiencies in both the private and public sector.
Click to expand...

I just want to address the above points you mentioned:

You are absolutely correct. I agree: the free market is NOT a deity, it is NOT perfect, and there ARE inefficiencies therein.

But there's a huge difference between the free market and government-imposed bureaucratic socialism: The free market is all about VOLUNTARY exchange and cooperation. But government is all about force and coercion and threats.

Government say: do as we command, or you will be physically punished. The free market says: buy our product (please!) and it will make your life better. Government uses a NEGATIVE incentive. The free market uses a POSITIVE incentive.
 
lb_on_teh_cb said:
nothing "pays for itself"

i notice the left likes to take ownership of things they dont own - OUR SCHOOLS, OUR ROADS, etc but if he's paying gas tax, he's paying for the roads, or at least he was until state and fed govt began to divert these funds to pay for something else
Click to expand...

You notice the point, well done. It is not "free stuff", it is stuff we pay for.
 
NonConformer said:
I just want to address the above points you mentioned:

You are absolutely correct. I agree: the free market is NOT a deity, it is NOT perfect, and there ARE inefficiencies therein.

But there's a huge difference between the free market and government-imposed bureaucratic socialism: The free market is all about VOLUNTARY exchange and cooperation. But government is all about force and coercion and threats.

Government say: do as we command, or you will be physically punished. The free market says: buy our product (please!) and it will make your life better. Government uses a NEGATIVE incentive. The free market uses a POSITIVE incentive.
Click to expand...

Government is running a society, the free market is selling goods. When there is a conflict of interest between profit and service, e.g. healthcare, justice, etc, then government should control it.
 
Redress said:
You notice the point, well done. It is not "free stuff", it is stuff we pay for.
Click to expand...

Yes, the "free stuff" meme is a popular conservative boogyman. You see, they resent the fact that some people are so poor that their needs can only be met with assistance from government. They wax nostalgic for the days when being too poor was solved with slow death. They won't admit that the private charities are insufficient to handle the problem of poverty, which can lead to other much more expensive societal problems, if not addressed, like crime, sickness and an unhealthy environment for businesses to operate within.

So, the question is really priority, and not whether we should or will spend tax dollars to help "people". You see, historically, conservatives are very willing to build prisons for black adults and less willing to build and fund quality schools for black children. They are very willing to spend money on bombers but not as much on foreign aid. Your politics ends up being defined by whom you prefer to help, not if you think helping others is OK. It's the difference between investing in the future of the poor rather than the present comfort of the elite. Obviously, the most ironic part of the "free stuff" meme is that the largest socialist institution in the country is the military, which the conservatives give blank checks to every time they're in office.

This debate about ideology breaks down to fear verses hope. The former is very visceral and the latter intellectual. They both have reason to believe they are right but the two ideas are not politically compatible. As long as the right are afraid, they can never understand why the left are hopeful about the future. As long as the left are hopeful, the fear seems counterproductive to accomplishing progressive change.

I can see that there's plenty to fear but we've never won anything in this country by allowing fear to dominate. Every challenge we've faced together benefited more from intellectual integrity than from raw emotionalism. Yet, when all is said and done, emotions are more powerful. That is the unfortunate place in which we find our political body, pulled in two directions by those with opposite inspirations. Our representatives compromise by doing nothing, and it's our fault.
 
I understand that blocked money under the pillows of the rich could be harming your economy, but you do not seriously consider socialism, do you?
 
Politicshead said:
Government is running a society, the free market is selling goods. When there is a conflict of interest between profit and service, e.g. healthcare, justice, etc, then government should control it.
Click to expand...

The only conflict is manufactured by the proponents of Socialism.

It's how Socialist gain power. They manufacture a 2 class narrative, convince as many uniformed and gullible people that they're being exploited by the other class, and then tell them their only hope is to rely on the Government.

Once Socialist are granted power they implement their agenda via appropriating private property and wealth creating industries under the pretense of " fairness " and " equality "

Those Govt run industries which are now run by ideologue Central Planenrs are from that point on completely disconnected from any useful economic and Finacial principles that account for things like cost and waste and allocation of goods and services.

Central planners then run those industries and the economy into the ground.

No, Healthcare shouldn't be Nationalized. Why would want the same people who couldnt manage to build a functioning website to have control over their healthcare ?
Maybe the rest of America can learn what it feels like to languish on hidden waiting list without treatment until they die.
 
DDD said:
I understand that blocked money under the pillows of the rich could be harming your economy, but you do not seriously consider socialism, do you?
Click to expand...

We already have "socialism".
 
Fenton said:
The only conflict is manufactured by the proponents of Socialism.

It's how Socialist gain power. They manufacture a 2 class narrative, convince as many uniformed and gullible people that they're being exploited by the other class, and then tell them their only hope is to rely on the Government.
Click to expand...

No such narrative needs "manufactured". There is a ruling class.
 
lb_on_teh_cb said:
fact check: who said it was?
Click to expand...

Whatever dumb**** blogger wrote the OP's list certainly thinks it is. Because that individual lives in a completely black and white universe. Business good, government bad. Lazy tripe. Even schoolchildren know the world isn't so simple. But libertarians rarely manage to be as wise as schoolchildren.
 
Redress said:
You notice the point, well done. It is not "free stuff", it is stuff we pay for.
Click to expand...

Yes, and therein lies the issue. Not everyone pays. And those that don't pay are the ones consuming most of the "free stuff".
 
Groogrux said:
Yes, and therein lies the issue. Not everyone pays. And those that don't pay are the ones consuming most of the "free stuff".
Click to expand...

Deployed combat troops?
 
Typical right-libertarian talking points. You'll function more effectively on a political debate site if you learn to understand your opponents instead of demonizing them.
 
Groogrux said:
Yes, and therein lies the issue. Not everyone pays. And those that don't pay are the ones consuming most of the "free stuff".
Click to expand...

That is how insurance works. Well done for understanding that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom