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An observation (#2) about the human predicament.

Frank Apisa

Frank Apisa

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This is the second in a series of observations that I will use to make a larger point at a later time. This observation is multi-faceted…and I will acknowledge that I have minor reservations about some of its elements.

I know, as with the last observation, many will be talking about what causes some of these things to be…but I am more interested in whether or not you agree with the observation…rather than what you see as the reason for the observation being so. It goes without saying, that if you disagree with any facet of the observation…I’d like to know why you do.






Observation #2:

It makes sense to be as productive as a nation as possible.*

The more productive we are...the more there is of everything. The greater the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the greater the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people.

Anything that harms productivity inherently impacts negatively on the amount of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If productivity is harmed (lessened) there will be less in the way of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If that is so, it seems almost certain that we should avoid anything that impedes productivity…and should encourage and adopt anything that increases productivity.



* It also makes sense to be as productive as possible as an individual, but I'm not dealing with that here.
 
Frank Apisa said:
This is the second in a series of observations that I will use to make a larger point at a later time. This observation is multi-faceted…and I will acknowledge that I have minor reservations about some of its elements.

I know, as with the last observation, many will be talking about what causes some of these things to be…but I am more interested in whether or not you agree with the observation…rather than what you see as the reason for the observation being so. It goes without saying, that if you disagree with any facet of the observation…I’d like to know why you do.






Observation #2:

It makes sense to be as productive as a nation as possible.*

The more productive we are...the more there is of everything. The greater the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the greater the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people.

Anything that harms productivity inherently impacts negatively on the amount of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If productivity is harmed (lessened) there will be less in the way of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If that is so, it seems almost certain that we should avoid anything that impedes productivity…and should encourage and adopt anything that increases productivity.



* It also makes sense to be as productive as possible as an individual, but I'm not dealing with that here.
Click to expand...

If you believe what you just wrote you can save a lot of time if you just skip to the part where you say you're turning conservative.
 
bubbabgone said:
If you believe what you just wrote you can save a lot of time if you just skip to the part where you say you're turning conservative.
Click to expand...

Actually, conservatives want to do everything that makes us LESS productive. Like eliminating min wage (thus reducing the reward incentive to work) and increasing taxes on the non-rich (reducing the reward incentive to work). Many conservatives these days also tend to be anti-education, so apparently they think we should have an undereducated work force. And conservatives do everything they can to reduce demand (demand is why companies produce to begin with).
 
imagep said:
Actually, conservatives want to do everything that makes us LESS productive. Like eliminating min wage (thus reducing the reward incentive to work) and increasing taxes on the non-rich (reducing the reward incentive to work). Many conservatives these days also tend to be anti-education, so apparently they think we should have an undereducated work force. And conservatives do everything they can to reduce demand (demand is why companies produce to begin with).
Click to expand...

And then there are liberals and welfare (reducing the incentive to work).
 
bubbabgone said:
If you believe what you just wrote you can save a lot of time if you just skip to the part where you say you're turning conservative.
Click to expand...

I don't do "believing"...but I do think a nation should attempt to be as productive as possible.

Do you agree with the observation?
 
imagep said:
Actually, conservatives want to do everything that makes us LESS productive. Like eliminating min wage (thus reducing the reward incentive to work) and increasing taxes on the non-rich (reducing the reward incentive to work). Many conservatives these days also tend to be anti-education, so apparently they think we should have an undereducated work force. And conservatives do everything they can to reduce demand (demand is why companies produce to begin with).
Click to expand...

Should we do as much as possible to increase productivity...and as much as possible to avoid decreasing it?

(If you can, I'd appreciate a response to that question, rather than getting into how best that stuff is done.)
 
Luftwaffe said:
And then there are liberals and welfare (reducing the incentive to work).
Click to expand...

Should we do as much as possible to increase productivity...and as much as possible to avoid decreasing it?

(If you can, I'd appreciate a response to that question, rather than getting into how best that stuff is done.)
 
Frank Apisa said:
This is the second in a series of observations that I will use to make a larger point at a later time. This observation is multi-faceted…and I will acknowledge that I have minor reservations about some of its elements.

I know, as with the last observation, many will be talking about what causes some of these things to be…but I am more interested in whether or not you agree with the observation…rather than what you see as the reason for the observation being so. It goes without saying, that if you disagree with any facet of the observation…I’d like to know why you do.






Observation #2:

It makes sense to be as productive as a nation as possible.*

1) The more productive we are...the more there is of everything. The greater the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the greater the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people.

2)Anything that harms productivity inherently impacts negatively on the amount of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If productivity is harmed (lessened) there will be less in the way of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If that is so, it seems almost certain that we should avoid anything that impedes productivity…and should encourage and adopt anything that increases productivity.



* It also makes sense to be as productive as possible as an individual, but I'm not dealing with that here.
Click to expand...

#2 follows logically if you accept #1

#1 however isn't so straight forward. It depends on what the productivity is aimed at, and greed and corruption could easily undermine this notion, and often does. Increased productivity in an already bloated military industrial complex, making equipment that the DOJ already has excessive inventory of, and then selling them to the DOJ, does not help meet the needs and wants of the country. In fact it takes away from what we have to meet those needs and wants in the form of $, and in return we get something we neither need nor want.

The needs and wants of the country can be better met with increased production. But increased production does not necessarily better meet the needs and wants of the country.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I don't do "believing"...but I do think a nation should attempt to be as productive as possible.

Do you agree with the observation?
Click to expand...

Sure.
But through a system that encourages personal participation, advancement, and reward.
China is pretty productive but they chose a different way to get there.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Should we do as much as possible to increase productivity...and as much as possible to avoid decreasing it?

(If you can, I'd appreciate a response to that question, rather than getting into how best that stuff is done.)
Click to expand...

Yes, and that would, in my opinion, definitely require certain regulatory factors, but not as much as say liberals would want.
 
shagg said:
#2 follows logically if you accept #1

#1 however isn't so straight forward. It depends on what the productivity is aimed at, and greed and corruption could easily undermine this notion, and often does. Increased productivity in an already bloated military industrial complex, making equipment that the DOJ already has excessive inventory of, and then selling them to the DOJ, does not help meet the needs and wants of the country. In fact it takes away from what we have to meet those needs and wants in the form of $, and in return we get something we neither need nor want.

The needs and wants of the country can be better met with increased production. But increased production does not necessarily better meet the needs and wants of the country.
Click to expand...

Let me accept what you are saying for the moment. I said I have reservations about some of its elements...and this is an area where I have some reservations. If we increase productivity in certain areas and dampen productivity in others in order to obtain that increase...there could be a diminishing return in some vital areas. (The classic guns or butter scenario.)

But I ask you this: What part of #1 are you in disagreement with. (Thinking of it in general...rather thanfrom the perspective of the guns/butter scenario.)

The more productive we are (in general)...the more there is of everything.
Click to expand...

Do you disagree with that?

Can we have "more of everything" by being less productive?

The greater the productivity of a country (in general), the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the greater the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people.
Click to expand...

Do you disagree with that?
 
Frank Apisa said:
I don't do "believing"...but I do think a nation should attempt to be as productive as possible.

Do you agree with the observation?
Click to expand...

Well, you do believe. If you don't believe you do, then...
 
bubbabgone said:
Sure.
But through a system that encourages personal participation, advancement, and reward.
China is pretty productive but they chose a different way to get there.
Click to expand...

Okay...but essentially you agree with the observation. I am seeking anyone who disagrees with THE OBSERVATION. I am trying to test it.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Yes, and that would, in my opinion, definitely require certain regulatory factors, but not as much as say liberals would want.
Click to expand...

But you also generally agree...although, as we all expect, the way liberals would suggest we will best achieve greater productivity...will be quite different from the ways conservatives will suggest.

Correct?
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay...but essentially you agree with the observation. I am seeking anyone who disagrees with THE OBSERVATION. I am trying to test it.
Click to expand...

So you've said.
Okay.
When you find someone who claims "The less productive we are...the more there is of everything. The less the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the less the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people." give me a buzz.
 
bubbabgone said:
So you've said.
Okay.
When you find someone who claims "The less productive we are...the more there is of everything. The less the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the less the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people." give me a buzz.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Bubba. I will take that as a "Yeah, I agree with it".

Sometimes you have got to clarify the obvious in order to get to the more complex.
 
Frank Apisa said:
What????
Click to expand...

I'm merely pointing out that you do in fact believe some things. All humans do, and do so with incomplete knowledge, which is why they are said to believe this or that, rather than knowing with absolute certainty. Scientists point their research based on belief - incomplete knowledge.
 
Frank Apisa said:
This is the second in a series of observations that I will use to make a larger point at a later time. This observation is multi-faceted…and I will acknowledge that I have minor reservations about some of its elements.

I know, as with the last observation, many will be talking about what causes some of these things to be…but I am more interested in whether or not you agree with the observation…rather than what you see as the reason for the observation being so. It goes without saying, that if you disagree with any facet of the observation…I’d like to know why you do.






Observation #2:

It makes sense to be as productive as a nation as possible.*

The more productive we are...the more there is of everything. The greater the productivity of a country, the better the needs and wants of the country will be met; the greater the productivity of a country, the more goods and services will be available to meet the needs and wants of the people.

Anything that harms productivity inherently impacts negatively on the amount of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If productivity is harmed (lessened) there will be less in the way of goods and services available for EVERYONE. If that is so, it seems almost certain that we should avoid anything that impedes productivity…and should encourage and adopt anything that increases productivity.



* It also makes sense to be as productive as possible as an individual, but I'm not dealing with that here.
Click to expand...
You are beginning to sound more like a Blue Dog Democrat like we have here in Texas, Liberal but far more Conservative than would be the norm up in your neck of the woods. Don't take it as a dig, this Southern Liberal (not a Party member of any sort) means it as a Compliment.
Addressing the actual point; both sides have their issues when it comes to productivity as a Nation, one side wraps themselves in the flag and declares they love America and American works then supports sending American jobs overseas in the name of more profits at the expense of Americans that lose those jobs, the other side is no better in the fact that they speak of supporting American Workers and support Unions Nationwide they are also guilty of supporting Major Businesses that also export US jobs out of the country. Neither side has realistically every wanted to address the issue by removing or reducing the reasons US business ship US jobs offshore.
As for education; both sides are also guilty of harming US productivity. One side cuts education funding and supports abandoning the public school system and Millions of American children in favor of vouchers so they can walk away from the system entirely and thus abandoning the idea of actually fixing the problem. The other side wants more money spent on education but does not want accountability in how that money is spent and their answer is Standardized Tests that actually undermine the education system in requiring teachers to teach what is expected for the students to simply pass a test instead on focusing on a well rounded education on all topics and where Testing only accounts for part of a students and School Systems success.

So what we have here are two different approaches that sadly often end up with similar results, neither of which is good for the People and the future of the Nation. What is the answer, maybe a bit less Partisan Squabbling and a Bit more Common Sense would be a good start, and we know that is going to come about any minute. Kind of gloomy when one realizes where we are today and where we obviously seem to be headed.
My 2 cents.
 
humbolt said:
I'm merely pointing out that you do in fact believe some things.
Click to expand...

I do NOT do believing.


All humans do, and do so with incomplete knowledge, which is why they are said to believe this or that, rather than knowing with absolute certainty.
Click to expand...

I do not...so obviously not all humans do. I am a human; I do not; therefore all humans do not.


Scientists point their research based on belief - incomplete knowledge.
Click to expand...

I have lots and lots of incomplete knowledge. I make lots and lots of guesses; lots of estimates; lots of suppositions. When I do, I call them guesses, estimates, suppositions and that sort of thing.

But I do not do "believing."

If you really want me to start a thread on that particular subject, I will. But it has no place here.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Thank you, Bubba. I will take that as a "Yeah, I agree with it".

Sometimes you have got to clarify the obvious in order to get to the more complex.
Click to expand...

I get yelled at a lot for getting too "Socratic" on these threads ... especially with AGW ... it really works well there.
If that's the method you're using with National productivity I'll try to be more patient but you have to tell me up front.
 
Casper said:
You are beginning to sound more like a Blue Dog Democrat like we have here in Texas, Liberal but far more Conservative than would be the norm up in your neck of the woods. Don't take it as a dig, this Southern Liberal (not a Party member of any sort) means it as a Compliment.
Addressing the actual point; both sides have their issues when it comes to productivity as a Nation, one side wraps themselves in the flag and declares they love America and American works then supports sending American jobs overseas in the name of more profits at the expense of Americans that lose those jobs, the other side is no better in the fact that they speak of supporting American Workers and support Unions Nationwide they are also guilty of supporting Major Businesses that also export US jobs out of the country. Neither side has realistically every wanted to address the issue by removing or reducing the reasons US business ship US jobs offshore.
As for education; both sides are also guilty of harming US productivity. One side cuts education funding and supports abandoning the public school system and Millions of American children in favor of vouchers so they can walk away from the system entirely and thus abandoning the idea of actually fixing the problem. The other side wants more money spent on education but does not want accountability in how that money is spent and their answer is Standardized Tests that actually undermine the education system in requiring teachers to teach what is expected for the students to simply pass a test instead on focusing on a well rounded education on all topics and where Testing only accounts for part of a students and School Systems success.

So what we have here are two different approaches that sadly often end up with similar results, neither of which is good for the People and the future of the Nation. What is the answer, maybe a bit less Partisan Squabbling and a Bit more Common Sense would be a good start, and we know that is going to come about any minute. Kind of gloomy when one realizes where we are today and where we obviously seem to be headed.
My 2 cents.
Click to expand...

One, I did not take it as a dig. I understood exactly what you meant.

Two, you made some great points here...and valid points.

Three, I certainly agree (as I said above) that the left and right have totally different ideas about what will accomplish "greater productivity"...some of which is irreconcilable. (Some actually can be reconciled.)

But essentially...you recognize that greater productivity, as Martha Stewart might say, is a good thing.

Right?
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do NOT do believing.




I do not...so obviously not all humans do. I am a human; I do not; therefore all humans do not.




I have lots and lots of incomplete knowledge. I make lots and lots of guesses; lots of estimates; lots of suppositions. When I do, I call them guesses, estimates, suppositions and that sort of thing.

But I do not do "believing."

If you really want me to start a thread on that particular subject, I will. But it has no place here.
Click to expand...

Well, you mentioned it. I didn't. I was just reading along when you mentioned that impossibility. However, you may call your beliefs whatever terms make you happy, since you seem pretty sensitive about it.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do NOT do believing.




I do not...so obviously not all humans do. I am a human; I do not; therefore all humans do not.




I have lots and lots of incomplete knowledge. I make lots and lots of guesses; lots of estimates; lots of suppositions. When I do, I call them guesses, estimates, suppositions and that sort of thing.

But I do not do "believing."

If you really want me to start a thread on that particular subject, I will. But it has no place here.
Click to expand...

I believe you've given me a headache.
 
bubbabgone said:
I get yelled at a lot for getting too "Socratic" on these threads ... especially with AGW ... it really works well there.
If that's the method you're using with National productivity I'll try to be more patient but you have to tell me up front.
Click to expand...

I am just trying to be real sure everyone can get on board the idea..."If we can make ourselves more productive...we should do it; if we can avoid making ourselves less productive...we should do that also.

Are you on board with that?
 
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