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Sanders forces Trump to flip-flop

poweRob

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
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Trump had said in the past that "wages are too high". Now he's saying "wages are too low" after Sanders hit him on it. Trump's first response was to call Sanders a liar but you know... when you go on tv and say such things... it kind of is easy to prove.

Trump has some real issues with telling the truth.

Donald Trump changes tune on wages after Bernie Sanders broadside

Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump has appeared to take a new position on US wages.
After previously saying wages were "too high," Trump instead stressed Monday that they were actually "too low."

In the Monday-morning tweet, Trump also said that good jobs were "too few" and that people had "lost faith in our leaders."

The apparent shift came after Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont), a Democratic presidential candidate, said in a Sunday interview that his message would resonate among Trump's working-class supporters.

"Look, many of Trump's supporters are a working-class people, and they're angry," Sanders said on CBS' "Face the Nation," according to the show's transcript. "And they're angry because they're working longer hours for lower wages. They're angry because their jobs have left this country and gone to China or other low-wage countries."

Sanders added: "In fact, he has said that he thinks wages in America are too high."

Trump first responded Sunday by accusing Sanders of lying.

Trump, however, has indeed said that wages — among many other things in the US — are too high.

In a Fox Business Network debate in November, Trump used his opening statement to say, "Taxes too high, wages too high. We're not going to be able to compete against the world."

And Trump doubled down on his position during a "Morning Joe" interview the day after that debate.​
 
The two positions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Often one is paid for what they know (or where they work) and not what they do. For example, if you have a malfunctioning bathtub drain it will likely cost you far more to call a plumber than to call a handyman to find and fix the problem.

Similarly, it will likley cost you more to have a car dealer fix a flat tire than a Walmart or other "discount" shop. Therfore it should be no surprise that the employee performing that same service might be paid a different wage for that service.

Is the car dealer employee (or plumber) being paid too much or is the Walmart employee (or handyman) being paid too little?
 
I don't think it will be hard to make Trump flip flop. He doesn't have a political platform, he just has lowest-common-denominator rhetoric.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The two positions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Often one is paid for what they know (or where they work) and not what they do. For example, if you have a malfunctioning bathtub drain it will likely cost you far more to call a plumber than to call a handyman to find and fix the problem.

Similarly, it will likley cost you more to have a car dealer fix a flat tire than a Walmart or other "discount" shop. Therfore it should be no surprise that the employee performing that same service might be paid a different wage for that service.

Is the car dealer employee (or plumber) being paid too much or is the Walmart employee (or handyman) being paid too little?
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I'm not understanding where you are getting that argument. It's pretty clear that Trump said, "wages are too high" and now, after Sanders called him out on it, he's saying "wages are too low".
 
Ikari said:
I don't think it will be hard to make Trump flip flop. He doesn't have a political platform, he just has lowest-common-denominator rhetoric.
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On social issues you are right. He diverts by blaming Mexicans and Muslims for everything. But as for the fiscal side, he thinks he has an edge as a businessman and this is where Sanders hit him and made him flop.
 
poweRob said:
On social issues you are right. He diverts by blaming Mexicans and Muslims for everything. But as for the fiscal side, he thinks he has an edge as a businessman and this is where Sanders hit him and made him flop.
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He has no edge. He's personally rich, but how many times did his companies have to declare bankruptcy? Trump is an attention whore, just doing whatever he can to get as many people as possible to pay attention to him. And he'll say whatever it is that he needs to say to make that true.
 
Ikari said:
He has no edge. He's personally rich, but how many times did his companies have to declare bankruptcy? Trump is an attention whore, just doing whatever he can to get as many people as possible to pay attention to him. And he'll say whatever it is that he needs to say to make that true.
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It's working well for him in the group he is targeting at the moment. Where its going to kill his candidacy is that he can't grow it beyond the base he has. When your rhetoric is, "stand with me and hate them" ... you know "them" is who you need to attract more of in the general to grow your campaign.
 
Ikari said:
He has no edge. He's personally rich, but how many times did his companies have to declare bankruptcy? Trump is an attention whore, just doing whatever he can to get as many people as possible to pay attention to him. And he'll say whatever it is that he needs to say to make that true.
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^

that

Trump doesn't really lie or flip flop, if you watch him he picks up on the mood of the crowd and caters to whatever his read is, thus his support could almost vary daily

it's working so far
 
poweRob said:
It's working well for him in the group he is targeting at the moment. Where its going to kill his candidacy is that he can't grow it beyond the base he has. When your rhetoric is, "stand with me and hate them" ... you know "them" is who you need to attract more of in the general to grow your campaign.
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It is working very well, sadly enough. I don't think he'll play on the nationwide election, however. Unless he's running against Hillary, then we're all so super f'd it doesn't really matter. But America has become a lowest-common-denominator entertainment society and that's what Trump is playing on, and for now it's paying dividends.
 
poweRob said:
I'm not understanding where you are getting that argument. It's pretty clear that Trump said, "wages are too high" and now, after Sanders called him out on it, he's saying "wages are too low".
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What I am getting at is that wages are only part of the much bigger picture. It costs more to produce a widget in the US than in China even if labor costs were identical just as it costs more to have plumber fix your drain problem than a handyman. You see your wage as $X (your "take nome" pay) but your real wage is what your employer must pay for that labor. Things like SS, Medicare and PPACA (among other things) add to that labor cost but are often hidden from (ignored by?) you.
 
Trump seems to think that wages are too high for people who are forced to take damn near any job they can get because they can't afford the crippling life destroying debt that comes with higher education.

To Trump a person working 40 hours a week gets what they get. If a full time person works hard at a minimum or low paying wage doesn't make enough money to live on that's their problem. They can always sign for massive interest education loans and go to school while working 40 hours a week in a job that is one step above living on the street.

Sanders believes that people working 40 hours a week should be making a living wage. Doesn't everyone want that for all Americans?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
What I am getting at is that wages are only part of the much bigger picture. It costs more to produce a widget in the US than in China even if labor costs were identical just as it costs more to have plumber fix your drain problem than a handyman. You see your wage as $X (your "take nome" pay) but your real wage is what your employer must pay for that labor. Things like SS, Medicare and PPACA (among other things) add to that labor cost but are often hidden from (ignored by?) you.
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Ok... but what does that have to do with Trumps flip-flop? Cause I don't think he's making the argument you are.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Trump seems to think that wages are too high for people who are forced to take damn near any job they can get because they can't afford the crippling life destroying debt that comes with higher education.

To Trump a person working 40 hours a week gets what they get. If a full time person works hard at a minimum or low paying wage doesn't make enough money to live on that's their problem. They can always sign for massive interest education loans and go to school while working 40 hours a week in a job that is one step above living on the street.

Sanders believes that people working 40 hours a week should be making a living wage. Doesn't everyone want that for all Americans?
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Well I suggest that everyone should just be like Trump and get a "small loan" from dad for $1 million to start their life off. Of course that $1 million loan back when he got his from daddy would be more like probably $5 million today adjusted for inflation.
 
poweRob said:
I'm not understanding where you are getting that argument. It's pretty clear that Trump said, "wages are too high" and now, after Sanders called him out on it, he's saying "wages are too low".
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I don't think this one is going to get too much play time. Trump was clear when he specified that "minimum wage" would be too high at $15 an hour for entry level jobs, but he also said there are not enough high paying jobs out there for skilled workers.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Trump seems to think that wages are too high for people who are forced to take damn near any job they can get because they can't afford the crippling life destroying debt that comes with higher education.

To Trump a person working 40 hours a week gets what they get. If a full time person works hard at a minimum or low paying wage doesn't make enough money to live on that's their problem. They can always sign for massive interest education loans and go to school while working 40 hours a week in a job that is one step above living on the street.

Sanders believes that people working 40 hours a week should be making a living wage. Doesn't everyone want that for all Americans?
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I wonder who paid for his Ivy League education?

there was a day when the average little guy had an average to zero education and could still support his family, have mum stay at home, own his own car and afford a vacation once a year

now it's his fault that he can't
 
HowardBThiname said:
I don't think this one is going to get too much play time. Trump was clear when he specified that "minimum wage" would be too high at $15 an hour for entry level jobs, but he also said there are not enough high paying jobs out there for skilled workers.
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Here are the videos of him saying "wages are too high". He didn't say $15 was too high... he said "taxes are too high, wages are too high". That's saying current wages are too high.

Now, of course, he's saying they are too low.
 
-
Gary Trudeau is a douche-bag, on that we can all agree, but his Sunday strip yesterday was accurate and funny as hell.

doonesbury - 12-27-2015 - donnie.webp
 
poweRob said:
Ok... but what does that have to do with Trumps flip-flop? Cause I don't think he's making the argument you are.
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I think that he is. That is exactly why Trump would never allow "free trade" agreements to ignore adding field leveling tariffs on foreign goods/services. Just as rental prices per square foot of real estate vary it is not a simple matter of establishing a government mandated "fair" price nationwide. That is one huge problem of establishing a federal MW when even the GS (civil service) pay varies greatly based on where the "same" federal job is.
 
poweRob said:
Ok... but what does that have to do with Trumps flip-flop? Cause I don't think he's making the argument you are.
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I don't necessarily want to call ttwt a Trump supporter because I don't want to insult him, but I have seen a very common trend amongst his supporters when you point out quotes or criticisms of his plan. They inevitably respond with some form of altered argument that Trump is supposedly making. For example, "stop all muslims from entering the country" is somehow morphed into a, "let's evaluate all individuals that are entering the country and exclude those who wish to carry out terrorist attacks from entering."
 
HowardBThiname said:
I don't think this one is going to get too much play time. Trump was clear when he specified that "minimum wage" would be too high at $15 an hour for entry level jobs, but he also said there are not enough high paying jobs out there for skilled workers.
Click to expand...

Trump is amazingly nuanced and detailed in his policy proposals after they have been analyzed and filtered by Trump proponents.
 
poweRob said:
It's working well for him in the group he is targeting at the moment. Where its going to kill his candidacy is that he can't grow it beyond the base he has. When your rhetoric is, "stand with me and hate them" ... you know "them" is who you need to attract more of in the general to grow your campaign.
Click to expand...
You're correct. Although Trump is shinning now just wait until he finds out the number of GOP base that will stay home during the general election; and, he is going to have to debate a lot more better in the general debates with either Hillary or Bernie. Because let's face it: Trump is going to have to use better rhetoric than "I'm going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it". When the competition ask how he should have a better answer than, "just trust me." :roll:
 
Bob N said:
You're correct. Although Trump is shinning now just wait until he finds out the number of GOP base that will stay home during the general election; and, he is going to have to debate a lot more better in the general debates with either Hillary or Bernie. Because let's face it: Trump is going to have to use better rhetoric than "I'm going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it". When the competition ask how he should have a better answer than, "just trust me." :roll:
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His style of debate works great when you are on a stage with a slew of others. The lack of time allows only for the harshest comments to be remembered and he's good at that. You're right though, in a one on one debate in the general, that crap won't fly.

"We are going to win more."
"Trust me."
"Make America great again."
"So and so is a loser."

That won't fill the time given in a one on one debate. And mods will expect more from the answers than such platitudes when more time is allotted for answers.
 
poweRob said:
Here are the videos of him saying "wages are too high". He didn't say $15 was too high... he said "taxes are too high, wages are too high". That's saying current wages are too high.

Now, of course, he's saying they are too low.
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Well, suit yourself, but I researched both comments and in the first - he was addressing minimum wages and in the latter, he was addressing too few "good" jobs.

Candidates, and even media outlets do this kind of thing frequently - to all the candidates - or to famous people in general - but usually, with a little research, there's a bit more to the story. It's always easy to pull a phrase or two out of context, but if it doesn't carry the headline, it usually loses traction quickly.

In Trump's case, all he has to do is issue a "clarification." That's typically what they all do - if they feel the story merits any attention at all.
 
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