The BERN you CANNOT debate. But you can try.

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

What parts do you want to debate? What parts do you feel are worth doing away with our way of life, doing away with our Constitutional government? Exactly what part makes you feel that you honestly deserve to be supported by others, let alone that you have an inherent right to that? Who pays for your mistakes, others? Who pays for your failures, others?

I am against socialism. So much that I would fight to stop it from taking over this country. We have gone down that road too far already. We cannot trample on the graves of the men and women that worked, fought, and died to create a country where those with the talent and commitment could succeed as far as that talent and commitment could take them.

What Bernie Sanders and others are advocating is not that you should be able to succeed as far as your talent and commitment can take you, but that you have the right... THE RIGHT... to be taken higher by the work of others through wealth redistribution via limitations put on those that can where you may not be able to do.

You can only take from others for so long, before they finally rise up to throw off the tyranny of those that take by force.

What Sanders is advancing is Tyranny under the guise of some altruistic battle against greed. Which is ironic as hell, because he is selling his self by making people greedy for what others have under a promise that the other cannot "have it all," and that what they have belongs to all of us. That... IS TYRANNY.

Divergent said:

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

Click to expand...

The first thing is that he sees a number of things that are very probably not well (general welfare maximizing in economic terms) structured. He is very probably right that we could improve our society.

The problem with his positions is, though, that he does not seemingly know much economics or does not apply his knowledge. And he develops policy to suite those that know very little about economics and socio-political systems. I am not sure he realizes this. He appears to believe, what he says. But he is factually a demagogue and depends on methods that would harm everyone in the country within a relatively short period.

he's the only candidate on either side who i believe genuinely cares about the average worker.

Divergent said:

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

Click to expand...

Seems your guess is wrong.

I can debate what "The Bern" did to Roosevelt's speech (about the 25 minute mark): "The Bern" (cleverly?) glossed over the words and independence in the phrase economic security and independence that Roosevelt actually used. One can (and should) debate just how independent one is that is forced to rely on whatever the government can take from a tiny subset of others and give to them. Is that not creating economic dependence rather than economic independence?

As "The Bern" quite correctly pointed out we now have tens of millions of folks that are (100%?) economically dependent on those government handouts, and yet, "The Bern" seeks to increase that economic dependence. What "The Bern" is advocating is increasing that dependent class from tens of millions of Americans to about 330 million. They would become dependent on that "handful" of folks that would (gladly?) continue to work, invest, produce and provide for everyone else in order to keep 10% while being taxed at 90%.

When will "The Bern" ever include, in one of his speeches, exactly what percentage of the US GDP should be 100% controlled by the federal government? It is now just above 20% but it sure seems that "The Bern" is advocating (at least?) doubling that. Medical care alone is now over 10% of GDP.

Beaudreaux said:

... We cannot trample on the graves of the men and women that worked, fought, and died to create a country where those with the talent and commitment could succeed as far as that talent and commitment could take them. ...

Click to expand...

I am confident that not a single Marine gave his life at Guadalcanal to protect the corporate greed of investment bankers, financial Wall Street spivs, and entrepreneurs who relocate their offices to offshore tax havens in order to avoid paying taxes. Please show some decency toward our heroes.

Beaudreaux said:

What parts do you want to debate? What parts do you feel are worth doing away with our way of life, doing away with our Constitutional government? Exactly what part makes you feel that you honestly deserve to be supported by others, let alone that you have an inherent right to that? Who pays for your mistakes, others? Who pays for your failures, others?

I am against socialism. So much that I would fight to stop it from taking over this country. We have gone down that road too far already. We cannot trample on the graves of the men and women that worked, fought, and died to create a country where those with the talent and commitment could succeed as far as that talent and commitment could take them.

What Bernie Sanders and others are advocating is not that you should be able to succeed as far as your talent and commitment can take you, but that you have the right... THE RIGHT... to be taken higher by the work of others through wealth redistribution via limitations put on those that can where you may not be able to do.

You can only take from others for so long, before they finally rise up to throw off the tyranny of those that take by force.

What Sanders is advancing is Tyranny under the guise of some altruistic battle against greed. Which is ironic as hell, because he is selling his self by making people greedy for what others have under a promise that the other cannot "have it all," and that what they have belongs to all of us. That... IS TYRANNY.

Click to expand...

LOL. Summarized "Sanders is advancing tyranny and attempting to destroy our way of life and eliminate our constitution." What ridiculous hyperbole.

Our tax rates are lower for the upper class than they've just about ever been post 1912. In the glorious 50's, which conservatives hold as the golden era of America, the max tax rate was 90%, and Sanders isn't suggesting anything even remotely that high.

It's not tyranny to insist that even poor people should be able to see a doctor, that climate change is real and should be addressed, that Americans shouldn't be working 60-80 hour work weeks and still living in poverty, and that corporate money shouldn't be in our politics. If you toned down the hyperbole and actually made some rational and calm points, people might take you a bit more seriously.

Beaudreaux said:

We cannot trample on the graves of the men and women that worked, fought, and died to create a country where those with the talent and commitment could succeed as far as that talent and commitment could take them.

Click to expand...

I find it disgusting and morally deplorable that you would try to use the deaths of American heroes as a tool to prop up your political conspiracy theories. Shame.

Heinrich said:

I am confident that not a single Marine gave his life at Guadalcanal to protect the corporate greed of investment bankers, financial Wall Street spivs, and entrepreneurs who relocate their offices to offshore tax havens in order to avoid paying taxes. Please show some decency toward our heroes.

Click to expand...

Much of that business relocation was a direct result of US taxation rates and environmental regulation coupled with "free trade" (relaxation of import duties) - we now see some that seek a bigger government solution to a big government problem.

One can clearly see this problem when the largest private US employer, Walmart, has mostly foreign goods on its shelves. This was not done by accident or for lack of government taxation or regulation policies - it was done purposefully by those government taxation and regulation policies.

Divergent said:

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

Click to expand...

I don't have time to watch a lengthy video and wonder which points you think he made that are "truth." Could you please point out the exact issues he presents, or what time they appear in the video that you would like to debate? Otherwise, there really can't be much of a conversation.

ttwtt78640 said:

Much of that business relocation was a direct result of US taxation rates and environmental regulation coupled with "free trade" (relaxation of import duties) - we now see some that seek a bigger government solution to a big government problem.

One can clearly see this problem when the largest private US employer, Walmart, has mostly foreign goods on its shelves. This was not done by accident or for lack of government taxation or regulation policies - it was done purposefully by those government taxation and regulation policies.

Click to expand...

those foreign goods are on the shelves, displacing Made in America products are only there BECAUSE of government action in the name of "free trade"
Bernie advocates FAIR Trade. notice his strong opposition to TPP and the previous "free trade" giveaways of the world's richest marketplace to corporations that hold NO allegiance to our nation. and, to be fair, they should not. the corporation's allegiance is - and should always be - to its shareholders. thus, it is reasonable for those corporations to seek the place to manufacture products to maximize profits. and that has caused them to shift jobs away from the USA and toward countries that do not impose restrictions for the benefit of our workers and our environment
these corporations seek out low cost manufacturing destinations without labor laws. employees there are fungible, and another will show up to replace the one who was maimed because there were no safety standards. where there is no protection of unionized workers to insist on a fair wage and a safe workplace. where there are no restrictions - and thus, no costs imposed - to prevent adversely impacting the environment with their wastes and byproducts. a place which does not compel the employer to fund an old age insurance program, disability program, unemployment insurance, or health insurance program
we then open up the most lucrative market in the world to those corporations and pretend it is "free trade" when they undercut the price of goods of the American competitors
the corporations have bought the politicians under the aegis of citizens united,where free speech is cited as the basis to sanction legal bribery. and this is our result. a nation that privatizes the profits and socializes the losses. don't see anyone on the horizon except Bernie who is willing to change that. until Sanders is elected, we will continue to have the best government money can buy

justabubba said:

those foreign goods are on the shelves, displacing Made in America products are only there BECAUSE of government action in the name of "free trade"
Bernie advocates FAIR Trade. notice his strong opposition to TPP and the previous "free trade" giveaways of the world's richest marketplace to corporations that hold NO allegiance to our nation. and, to be fair, they should not. the corporation's allegiance is - and should always be - to its shareholders. thus, it is reasonable for those corporations to seek the place to manufacture products to maximize profits. and that has caused them to shift jobs away from the USA and toward countries that do not impose restrictions for the benefit of our workers and our environment
these corporations seek out low cost manufacturing destinations without labor laws. employees there are fungible, and another will show up to replace the one who was maimed because there were no safety standards. where there is no protection of unionized workers to insist on a fair wage and a safe workplace. where there are no restrictions - and thus, no costs imposed - to prevent adversely impacting the environment with their wastes and byproducts. a place which does not compel the employer to fund an old age insurance program, disability program, unemployment insurance, or health insurance program
we then open up the most lucrative market in the world to those corporations and pretend it is "free trade" when they undercut the price of goods of the American competitors
the corporations have bought the politicians under the aegis of citizens united,where free speech is cited as the basis to sanction legal bribery. and this is our result. a nation that privatizes the profits and socializes the losses. don't see anyone on the horizon except Bernie who is willing to change that. until Sanders is elected, we will continue to have the best government money can buy

Click to expand...

How, exactly, would electing a Democratic Socialist as POTUS change the mindset of congress? Changing laws requires that a majority of our 535 congress critters be replaced, not just the POTUS. I agree with you 100% that many, if not most, of our congress critters are beholden to those that supply that, all important, campaign cash. It should come as no surprise that congress critters of both parties being in, and beholden to, that 1% will continue to govern to benefit that group. What I do not see is how replacing only the POTUS will alter that situation.

Divergent said:

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

Click to expand...

Can't stand his voice. Sounds like a gangster with dementia.

Heinrich said:

I am confident that not a single Marine gave his life at Guadalcanal to protect the corporate greed of investment bankers, financial Wall Street spivs, and entrepreneurs who relocate their offices to offshore tax havens in order to avoid paying taxes. Please show some decency toward our heroes.

Click to expand...

Your heroes? You're in Spain, sucking off the teats of the Spanish people, so forgive me if I do not accept your irresponsible drivel as fact, of which you have no obvious actual knowledge to which to speak to any person much less a person that you obviously do not know is a disabled veteran myself, that has served MY country in combat across this globe and to which I spoke earlier from a position of personal and painful knowledge.

However, I will politely accept your ignorance as not of your causing and hold no ill will toward you for that ignorance - however, you are no longer in possession of such ignorance to allow for excusal of such statements as were made above.

Have a nice day.

RabidAlpaca said:

LOL. Summarized "Sanders is advancing tyranny and attempting to destroy our way of life and eliminate our constitution." What ridiculous hyperbole.

Our tax rates are lower for the upper class than they've just about ever been post 1912. In the glorious 50's, which conservatives hold as the golden era of America, the max tax rate was 90%, and Sanders isn't suggesting anything even remotely that high.

It's not tyranny to insist that even poor people should be able to see a doctor, that climate change is real and should be addressed, that Americans shouldn't be working 60-80 hour work weeks and still living in poverty, and that corporate money shouldn't be in our politics. If you toned down the hyperbole and actually made some rational and calm points, people might take you a bit more seriously.



I find it disgusting and morally deplorable that you would try to use the deaths of American heroes as a tool to prop up your political conspiracy theories. Shame.

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I hold no shame for speaking from personal experience, nor do I hold any shame for wanting to prevent the subjugation of the American people to their government for all basic requirements that they, until now, have been able to provide for themselves, even when the days of the actual "robber barons" (as the Bern likes to call them) were alive and well in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

You guys can candy coat and polish it all you want, but Tyranny is still Tyranny, no matter how welcomed it becomes through fear and misperceived needs for government supplied safety.

Unlike Heinrich, you know very well who and what I am. You sir, do not get a pass.

Beaudreaux said:

Your heroes? You're in Spain, sucking off the teats of the Spanish people, so forgive me if I do not accept your irresponsible drivel as fact, of which you have no obvious actual knowledge to which to speak to any person much less a person that you obviously do not know is a disabled veteran myself, that has served MY country in combat across this globe and to which I spoke earlier from a position of personal and painful knowledge.

However, I will politely accept your ignorance as not of your causing and hold no ill will toward you for that ignorance - however, you are no longer in possession of such ignorance to allow for excusal of such statements as were made above.

Have a nice day.

Click to expand...

In your case, I am sure you sacrificed much for bankers bonuses, derivative rip-off merchants, and corporation executives. No doubt they will thank you for your service on their behalf.

Heinrich said:

In your case, I am sure you sacrificed much for bankers bonuses, derivative rip-off merchants, and corporation executives. No doubt they will thank you for your service on their behalf.

Click to expand...

Cute. Seriously, that was actually funny. Wrong, but funny.

Aside from his rhetoric at George Town this is what Sanders planned for America...to move America " forward " ( to drive it into the ground )
Agenda for America: 12 Steps Forward

Rebuilding Our Crumbling Infrastructure AKA " Stimulus to increase aggregate demand ", Sanders want's to borrow and spend America into prosperity while he raises taxes on ' WallStreet ", the Rich and Corporations.

Never-mind that Stimulus just doesn't work ( well it works to grow debt exponentially and leads to more economic stagnation ) or that Sanders has no clue how market based economies function. He wants to increase the debt and Federal spending while simultaneously driving off private sector investment. He would destroy whats left of economy that's already on life support.

Reversing Climate Change So he wants to implement " solutions " to fix something that's not occurring ( Global Warming ). Solutions that would drive up energy cost for millions of Americans who are going to be struggling under a Sanders Presidency. Or basically turn the rest of America into California.

Creating Worker Co-ops Subsidized Co-Ops "compete " with existing businesses who lack the advantage of Federal incentives.

Growing the Trade Union Movement Unions get the full backing and support of the United States Federal Government to " help them grow ", increase dues and membership and increase donations to Democrat candidates who are up for election. Sounds legit..:roll:

Raising the Minimum Wage Again, Sanders has no a clue what grows and drives Market based economies. All he has are these lazy,superficial and purely ideological " solutions ". Government mandated cost increases on private businesses to " make things equal " without any concept or clue of the unintended consequences.

Pay Equity for Women Workers This is just blatant pandering

Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers Someone please tell Mr Sanders that this is not 1955 and that tariffs go both ways.

Making College Affordable for All Who's going to pay for this ?? The " Rich " ? " WallStreet " Nope. The American Middle Class, that's who.

Taking on Wall Street :lamo Taking on " Wall Street " What did they do ? Knock your garbage cans over ? How about you " take on " the real criminals Sanders. The one's who drove two iconic American Financial Institutions into Insolvency ?

Health Care as a Right for All And who's going to pay for this ?? Sanders wants all of America to know what it feels like to be a US Veteran who's being ignored and shifted around onto multiple waiting list I guess. When Single Payer leads to inferior care, long waiting times and or just being ignored outright, does that mean my " Rights " have been violated ?

Protecting the Most Vulnerable Americans More blatant pandering..

Real Tax Reform Increase taxes on the Rich, on investors and on Corporations. Awesome plan BERN. Way to drive off new private sector investment. Way to make sure Corporations keep siting on Trillions of dollars in Capital. Way to cut off foreign investment.

Honestly, Sanders is just a hack left wing ideologue in front of audience full of naivete. He opposes the Free Market on principle, which means he has no idea how to grow a market based economy. His ideas are not fresh and new, not cutting edge, not progressive and the last thing they would do is move America forward.

ttwtt78640 said:

Much of that business relocation was a direct result of US taxation rates and environmental regulation coupled with "free trade" (relaxation of import duties) - we now see some that seek a bigger government solution to a big government problem.

One can clearly see this problem when the largest private US employer, Walmart, has mostly foreign goods on its shelves. This was not done by accident or for lack of government taxation or regulation policies - it was done purposefully by those government taxation and regulation policies.

Click to expand...

Nonsense.

Jobs are moved overseas to save on labor costs, not taxes

sangha said:

Nonsense.

Jobs are moved overseas to save on labor costs, not taxes

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High corporate taxes motivate business to perform an inversion, a merger with a company off shore, typically Ireland with low corporate taxes, where the business resulting from the merger declares itself as now a business of that off shore nation to take advantage of the lower corporate taxes.

I'm pretty sure that you probably already know this.

Divergent said:

Will Right Wingers fight for their own Poverty after they understand the truth?

Can anyone debate this? My guess is no.

Click to expand...

why don't you tell us why that twit is correct rather than demanding people argue by proxy?

sangha said:

Nonsense.

Jobs are moved overseas to save on labor costs, not taxes

Click to expand...

jobs moved overseas to DECREASE THE COST OF MANUFACTURING

be it labor costs or taxes

sangha said:

Nonsense.

Jobs are moved overseas to save on labor costs, not taxes

Click to expand...

Hmm... so the best answer that demorats have is to try to raise US labor costs?

eohrnberger said:

High corporate taxes motivate business to perform an inversion, a merger with a company off shore, typically Ireland with low corporate taxes, where the business resulting from the merger declares itself as now a business of that off shore nation to take advantage of the lower corporate taxes.

I'm pretty sure that you probably already know this.

Click to expand...

Inversions do not cause jobs to move overseas because, as you point out yourself, it merely involves a business incorporating in another country. This explains why american jobs are not being shipped to Ireland.

TurtleDude said:

jobs moved overseas to DECREASE THE COST OF MANUFACTURING

be it labor costs or taxes

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Income taxes are not a cost of manufacturing.