Take the Common Core 4th grade math test

Aced it, mainly because I help my kids with their homework all the time..


Tim-

donsutherland1 said:

It appears that the emphasis is on encouraging children to think about what the actual problem is and how to structure it. If so, this is valuable preparation for one's dealing with uncertainty, imperfect information, etc., later in one's academic and professional life.

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Very well, but how things appear and if they actually have improved outcomes are two different things.

Grim17 said:

The biggest issue I've had with Common Core math is shown on these videos:

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Please tell me those are jokes.

Please tell me that this is not what is being taught kids today.

a seven year old is being asked to make 4 mathematical steps to add two numbers? Please tell me this is a parody.

LagerHead said:

It seems pretty much like what I remember, except for a couple of the concepts. But I don't think that's really the issue people have with common core. I think it's the one-size-fits-all teaching method and some of the crazy hoops they have you jump through to get to your answer rather than simply memorizing that 9+7=16.

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Yes, I think that covers some of the criticism, beyond that math is objective, Im all for showing/helping people think of math in different ways but the answer isn't open to interpretation.

I teach EMTs and Paramedics and math is a constant struggle for them. I get not having done math for quite a while, and being a bit fuzzy on concepts, but Im getting kids (mostly under age 25) who can't do basic math. As in multiplication and long division. Ive resigned myself to reteaching long division (something they are supposed to know prior to entry) to them, because Ive found it raises scores on medical math/drug calcs.

I have found that I have to make it clear that the only way through Paramedic school is to embrace the pain and learn how to get very good at these things. The kids who struggle try to get around the math by "learning" shortcuts which not only do not work (save very specific sets of circumstances) but prevent them from addressing the underlying issue-that they can't do math. Interestingly enough, calculators (which I allow when introducing new formulas) dont actually correlate to higher scores, it just helps them get to the answer quicker.

I call them out when they aren't doing it correctly, and we immediately locate the source of the error (wrong formula, rounding error, long division error, wrong dosage, wrong drip set, etc) so they have context, and I keep note of where they are struggling for next time. We do something I had to do in school-"stand and deliver", the student stands and gives me the info I ask for (wt in kilo's, dosage for this patient, concentration of this drug, etc) as Ive found its an incentive for them to learn what they need to learn. When they get the correct answer, there is positive feedback-especially in demonstrating they can do this to themselves and their peers. When they get the wrong answer there is negative feedback for the same reason. It may seem a bit strict but this is dealing with life and death and some of the meds we give can actually be lethal if the patient is under dosed.

Beyond that, and especially with the younger students there is a marked reading difficulty. These kids have problems even reading basic passages, its painful to hear. And to make it worse, they now are learning to read a "new" medical language with lots of unusual words they haven't heard people outside of medicine say. I have to work with them on prefixes, suffixes, root words, pronunciation, etc.

The quality of product being put out by our public schools is a problem on so many levels. Something needs to be done.

Mycroft said:

I agree...inefficient and time consuming.

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Which is another issue. Part of wisdom is knowing how and where to put effort. I get that there are a few kids who might benefit from thinking about this in a more complex manner, but for the most part why even go there if you dont have to?

Fearandloathing said:

Please tell me those are jokes.

Please tell me that this is not what is being taught kids today.

a seven year old is being asked to make 4 mathematical steps to add two numbers? Please tell me this is a parody.

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Our public schools are failing our children, so the education system puts out token "solutions" to show they are doing something.

I think of the value of the one room school house-each student would be responsible for teaching previously learned concepts to students the grade level below. It gave one-on-one attention to the younger student, and allowed the older kid to re-learn the concept (by teaching), as well as how to communicate concepts to someone else.

The teacher was more there for introducing things, dealing with difficult cases, and keeping the system organized. It couldn't have been worse than what we have now.

US Conservative said:

Yes, I think that covers some of the criticism, beyond that math is objective, Im all for showing/helping people think of math in different ways but the answer isn't open to interpretation.

I teach EMTs and Paramedics and math is a constant struggle for them. I get not having done math for quite a while, and being a bit fuzzy on concepts, but Im getting kids (mostly under age 25) who can't do basic math. As in multiplication and long division. Ive resigned myself to reteaching long division (something they are supposed to know prior to entry) to them, because Ive found it raises scores on medical math/drug calcs.

I have found that I have to make it clear that the only way through Paramedic school is to embrace the pain and learn how to get very good at these things. The kids who struggle try to get around the math by "learning" shortcuts which not only do not work (save very specific sets of circumstances) but prevent them from addressing the underlying issue-that they can't do math. Interestingly enough, calculators (which I allow when introducing new formulas) dont actually correlate to higher scores, it just helps them get to the answer quicker.

I call them out when they aren't doing it correctly, and we immediately locate the source of the error (wrong formula, rounding error, long division error, wrong dosage, wrong drip set, etc) so they have context, and I keep note of where they are struggling for next time. We do something I had to do in school-"stand and deliver", the student stands and gives me the info I ask for (wt in kilo's, dosage for this patient, concentration of this drug, etc) as Ive found its an incentive for them to learn what they need to learn. When they get the correct answer, there is positive feedback-especially in demonstrating they can do this to themselves and their peers. When they get the wrong answer there is negative feedback for the same reason. It may seem a bit strict but this is dealing with life and death and some of the meds we give can actually be lethal if the patient is under dosed.

Beyond that, and especially with the younger students there is a marked reading difficulty. These kids have problems even reading basic passages, its painful to hear. And to make it worse, they now are learning to read a "new" medical language with lots of unusual words they haven't heard people outside of medicine say. I have to work with them on prefixes, suffixes, root words, pronunciation, etc.

The quality of product being put out by our public schools is a problem on so many levels. Something needs to be done.

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any idea how terrifying those two sentences are when isolated together?

I found that calculating percentages was a really big issue. In business, sales, you have to be able to calculate margin and mark up [two different animals] quickly, often while on the phone with the bidder whose made an offer. Even with calculators you get nonsense 20% margin on $425 completes at $565 [425/.8] but they will either go the wrong way and get $493 or worse calculate mark up at $510.

I often wonder if education today concentrates on the answer as opposed to how to get. Certainly doing four steps to get the same answer as subtraction is idiocy.

US Conservative said:

Our public schools are failing our children, so the education system puts out token "solutions" to show they are doing something.

I think of the value of the one room school house-each student would be responsible for teaching previously learned concepts to students the grade level below. It gave one-on-one attention to the younger student, and allowed the older kid to re-learn the concept (by teaching), as well as how to communicate concepts to someone else.

The teacher was more there for introducing things, dealing with difficult cases, and keeping the system organized. It couldn't have been worse than what we have now.

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I liked kindergarden. I had three crayons, you had two. Put them together we had five.

We played "take away" [to this day my mind goes xxx 'take away' nine....

and we played 'find the threes' how many groups of three crayons are there in this box of 18?

Then there was hockey, where in first grade you learned to add and subtract time: "three more minutes in this roughing penalty...'

Redress said:

In part because it was absolutely nothing like any test I took in elementary school.

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It was very much like the tests I took in school. It's asking math questions.

Also 95%

Deuce said:

I feel confused because there's no such thing as a "common core math test."

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The New York State Education Department released several questions from the 2014 math exams in grades 3-8. These are 20 multiple choice questions from the fourth grade test. The tests also include short-answer and long-form questions and are taken over three days.

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There's a reading comprehension portion on the test I'm sure.

Fearandloathing said:

any idea how terrifying those two sentences are when isolated together?

I found that calculating percentages was a really big issue. In business, sales, you have to be able to calculate margin and mark up [two different animals] quickly, often while on the phone with the bidder whose made an offer. Even with calculators you get nonsense 20% margin on $425 completes at $565 [425/.8] but they will either go the wrong way and get $493 or worse calculate mark up at $510.

I often wonder if education today concentrates on the answer as opposed to how to get. Certainly doing four steps to get the same answer as subtraction is idiocy.

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Yes thats why I try to teach them to think via inspection as well (like if they are giving more than one vial of drug, are they correct?), and I can hear explosions in their minds when they show me the same formula (from another source) I have given them with a different order of operations-they think its magic or something.

Getting the right answer isn't the same as comprehension, and thats a concept thats very hard to get across. They dont get what it means when I say that even if they get the right answer they only have the required backround knowledge-not true comprehension. The beauty of comprehension is once you have it-you dont have to work to keep it. Its like riding a bike.

Our schools used to strive for this, now its gone.

I think the biggest irony is that conservatives have the most problems with common core and yet states that typically vote Republican tend to have the people with the lowest education and poorest schools.

US Conservative said:

Yes thats why I try to teach them to think via inspection as well (like if they are giving more than one vial of drug, are they correct?), and I can hear explosions in their minds when they show me the same formula (from another source) I have given them with a different order of operations-they think its magic or something.

Getting the right answer isn't the same as comprehension, and thats a concept thats very hard to get across. They dont get what it means when I say that even if they get the right answer they only have the required backround knowledge-not true comprehension. The beauty of comprehension is once you have it-you dont have to work to keep it. Its like riding a bike.

Our schools used to strive for this, now its gone.

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You're right.'
"comprehension" used to be the buzz word in school when I was there and it is what is missing when I have interviewed prospective hires. They can, or mayb can, get an answer, but do they understand the how and the why.

And note, more and more the US and Canada to a lesser degree have to look offshore for the technical sciences. The second most spoken language at [I think] Microsoft is Mandarin.

Fearandloathing said:

I liked kindergarden. I had three crayons, you had two. Put them together we had five.

We played "take away" [to this day my mind goes xxx 'take away' nine....

and we played 'find the threes' how many groups of three crayons are there in this box of 18?

Then there was hockey, where in first grade you learned to add and subtract time: "three more minutes in this roughing penalty...'

Click to expand...

And thats a very effective method because its practical, you can see how the knowledge is beneficial in life, its not just theoretical.
I actually wish I had learned with the metric system, I still have to convert everything in my mind from the british/standard system.
Its much more practical, however in medicine its a dual edged sword, while its very logical an error will result in being off by a factor of at least ten. This is why you hear of patients getting a dose thats 10 times or 100 times the required dose.

Hicup said:

Aced it, mainly because I help my kids with their homework all the time..


Tim-

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I aced it too, mainly because these were questions meant for 9 year olds. :mrgreen:

Fearandloathing said:

You're right.'
"comprehension" used to be the buzz word in school when I was there and it is what is missing when I have interviewed prospective hires. They can, or mayb can, get an answer, but do they understand the how and the why.

And note, more and more the US and Canada to a lesser degree have to look offshore for the technical sciences. The second most spoken language at [I think] Microsoft is Mandarin.

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Yes, and its because those children from overseas are expected to learn what they are very much capable of learning even if its more challenging.

I argue with my mom about this, shes a now retired elementary school teacher and Ive told her about my findings, she has frequently mentioned self esteem, as if thats her job-I argue that learning the material is what creates self esteem NOT some token hand clapping about incompetence. Kids know whats real, and school/childhood is meant to prepare them for reality.

When students from other countries come here, they aren't handicapped by such crap-they know what matters.

US Conservative said:

And thats a very effective method because its practical, you can see how the knowledge is beneficial in life, its not just theoretical.
I actually wish I had learned with the metric system, I still have to convert everything in my mind from the british/standard system.
Its much more practical, however in medicine its a dual edged sword, while its very logical an error will result in being off by a factor of at least ten. This is why you hear of patients getting a dose thats 10 times or 100 times the required dose.

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I don't hear that. Maybe because we have been metric for 40 years.

I love metric except for weather, where F is much more accurate and I still can't do any construction work in metric, a two by four is a two by four not xxx.xxx mm by cccc.cc mm. 1 cm of snow, nothing. 1 mm, take notice, 10 mm, get the shovel.

If its a decimal place then it's in the calculation method no?

Fearandloathing said:

I don't hear that. Maybe because we have been metric for 40 years.

I love metric except for weather, where F is much more accurate and I still can't do any construction work in metric, a two by four is a two by four not xxx.xxx mm by cccc.cc mm. 1 cm of snow, nothing. 1 mm, take notice, 10 mm, get the shovel.

If its a decimal place then it's in the calculation method no?

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Yes, but the metric system is based on decimals (factors of 10). Of course with any method there are other sources of error as well.
Temp still gets me, I just plain think in Fahrenheit, so all of the critical medical temps (vary based on patient age, medical condition, etc) I have to bluntly memorize 2 values, and I hate that.

US Conservative said:

Yes, and its because those children from overseas are expected to learn what they are very much capable of learning even if its more challenging.

I argue with my mom about this, shes a now retired elementary school teacher and Ive told her about my findings, she has frequently mentioned self esteem, as if thats her job-I argue that learning the material is what creates self esteem NOT some token hand clapping about incompetence. Kids know whats real, and school/childhood is meant to prepare them for reality.

When students from other countries come here, they aren't handicapped by such crap-they know what matters.

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Very evident here where there is such a high concentration of Chinese students. While the Canadian kids are working out the fundamentals, the Chinese are putting it in practice. My building [on the beach] is very big with European students, the difference is they are into it, good at whatever they are studying and that's the fun in their life, their esteme award if you will. Their Canadian counterparts are talking about gaming, and where to hang out. The bitch because all the "immigrants" are getting the jobs.

And I sense we in North America have lost sight of the why, we study **** because we are supposed to be studying something, but the world is over run with general BA's, English and history majors, it needs people who can do as well as think.

US Conservative said:

Yes, but the metric system is based on decimals (factors of 10). Of course with any method there are other sources of error as well.
Temp still gets me, I just plain think in Fahrenheit, so all of the critical medical temps (vary based on patient age, medical condition, etc) I have to bluntly memorize 2 values, and I hate that.

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Yeah, that's a bitch. But 98.6 is 37 dead on. Probably the only metric that tunes out that way.

You don't build much I guess, but when I need a 1/4" screw I want a ****ing 1/4" screw not some stupid 9.4 cm screw, when I want a half inch anything I want a 1/2" whatever not have to remember whether that's a 12 or 13 wrench. Tires drive me nuts, my head can't convert the numbers. But the rest is great, only with metric in distances you have to drive further, but you can go faster. speed limit here is 100.

very similar to what i experienced in DoD school
54 years ago
then it was called 'new' math
and we were all supposed to go into engineering
- it worked for me
hope it works for today's students

my wife teaches at a school that is 100% subsidized lunch
17% (17 out of a 100 for those who got a low score of the assignment) are on grade level in math and reading
doesn't seem to be working for them

Fearandloathing said:

I don't hear that. Maybe because we have been metric for 40 years.

I love metric except for weather, where F is much more accurate and I still can't do any construction work in metric, a two by four is a two by four not xxx.xxx mm by cccc.cc mm. 1 cm of snow, nothing. 1 mm, take notice, 10 mm, get the shovel.

If its a decimal place then it's in the calculation method no?

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With ya 100%. I use metric for work exclusively, and it really didn't take me too long to get used to it. We even use Celcius, but I still find myself stumped on that one many time, although if you told me it was 26 C out I would have a general idea of the temperature (around 79-81).

Metric just makes more sense anyway. For most measurements, it's based on 10's. But temperature is still a weird one, and I prefer Fahrenheit.

Fearandloathing said:

Very evident here where there is such a high concentration of Chinese students. While the Canadian kids are working out the fundamentals, the Chinese are putting it in practice. My building [on the beach] is very big with European students, the difference is they are into it, good at whatever they are studying and that's the fun in their life, their esteme award if you will. Their Canadian counterparts are talking about gaming, and where to hang out. The bitch because all the "immigrants" are getting the jobs.

And I sense we in North America have lost sight of the why, we study **** because we are supposed to be studying something, but the world is over run with general BA's, English and history majors, it needs people who can do as well as think.

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We have the same phenomenon here, and its reflected in the demographics of medical practitioners. I actually really enjoy this because I get to work with some very smart people from all over the world, its a pleasure. At the same time, Im concerned because America isn't meeting the demand, let alone leading as it used to.

In PA school, I would show up at 5 am, get labs, pre round with the patients, check with the nursing staff about what happened overnight, report anything critical to my chief resident (who shadowed everyone), and then all of the students and residents would have an hour long lecture on something (often very advanced stuff an it was only 8 am), around 9 the attending would meet with us and we would round. For each of your patients you would have to deliver a summary, why the patient was admitted, what was being done and why, what the goals for the patient were (amongst them discharge-the longer a patient is in the hospital the higher the chance of them getting sick), and then you were pimped-essentially quized on your patient, the diseases he/she had, the issues with treatment, etc. After rounds, any new orders were placed, diagnostics or procedures were done (your job to make sure they happened, and if there was a delay it had to be reported immediately). By noon, you were on your feet walking for 6 hours, and then during lunch, we had workshops where once a week you would have to give a presentation, demonstrate skills, etc. After lunch was just as challenging, the day would end around 5-7 pm unless you were on call (long call once a week meaning you slept at the hospital, admitted new patients which you then had to prep about all night, and short call once a week meaning you left around 11). It was incredibly exhausting in every sense of the word, but I embraced the pain. Students from all over the world did the same, and frankly they seemed more prepared.

Similar phenomenon are seen as you note in other sectors, its a real concern.

akrunner88 said:

With ya 100%. I use metric for work exclusively, and it really didn't take me too long to get used to it. We even use Celcius, but I still find myself stumped on that one many time, although if you told me it was 26 C out I would have a general idea of the temperature (around 79-81).

Metric just makes more sense anyway. For most measurements, it's based on 10's. But temperature is still a weird one, and I prefer Fahrenheit.

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Yeah, 19, 20, 21 can all be 70.

Rainfall and snow screwed me up at first, make a mistake and think 4" is only going to be 1/4" and you have a problem. One litre is about one US quart, four point 2 to the gallon, five in Imperial gallon.

Grim17 said:

The biggest issue I've had with Common Core math is shown on these videos:

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The issue you have with common core is that it teaches kids math? Seems kinda stupid...