Ferguson is not about black vs white: My thoughts on ferguson

Visbek · Nov 29, 2014

Papa bull said:
The author's statement is reasonable. Brown did reap what he sowed.

The author's statement is completely irrational, and fails to acknowledge the very existence of racism. He basically blows off racism as "being stopped in a car for no good reason."

The author wasn't trying to claim that stealing cigarillos should be a capital offense. That's just your strawman.

Uh, no. It's exactly what he was saying. Again, and I quote:

"Moments before his death, Michael Brown had violently robbed a man in a store. A man doing the best he could to make a living. Minutes later, Brown reaped what he sowed and was gunned down in the street. That is the sad truth."

There's no question that Baucham is drawing a direct line from "petty theft" to "getting gunned down in the street." He didn't even mention how Brown allegedly assaulted an officer. Rather, he's trying to characterize Brown as an inveterate thug and criminal because he stole $10 worth of merchandise earlier in the day, and thus deserved to be killed. I can't imagine such a barbaric attitude, and the refusal to entertain the basic idea of redemption, is genuinely Christian.

Papa bull · Nov 29, 2014

Visbek said:
The author's statement is completely irrational, and fails to acknowledge the very existence of racism. He basically blows off racism as "being stopped in a car for no good reason."

Uh, no. It's exactly what he was saying. Again, and I quote:

"Moments before his death, Michael Brown had violently robbed a man in a store. A man doing the best he could to make a living. Minutes later, Brown reaped what he sowed and was gunned down in the street. That is the sad truth."

There's no question that Baucham is drawing a direct line from "petty theft" to "getting gunned down in the street." He didn't even mention how Brown allegedly assaulted an officer. Rather, he's trying to characterize Brown as an inveterate thug and criminal because he stole $10 worth of merchandise earlier in the day, and thus deserved to be killed. I can't imagine such a barbaric attitude, and the refusal to entertain the basic idea of redemption, is genuinely Christian.

I explained that the author correctly pointed out that Brown's own actions led him to his own death. He sowed violence. He reaped violence. He was looking for trouble and he found it. Nothing the author said can be construed to mean that he thought stealing 10 dollars worth of merchandise should result in the death penalty for offenders. But your strawman to that effect and the faux outrage over your own strawman is noted. Carry on.

Papa bull · Nov 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
White on white crime doesn't get much national media attention either, and all street crime is illegal. The people committing street crime are charged and brought to trial. I don't see the point in bringing up black on black crime unless it's more about wanting black people portrayed a certain way in the media.

When you cite factual statistics, you are trying to get people to look at things a certain way and that certain way is a factual way. It is absolutely relevant to a discussion about black violence to cite statistics of black violence and the author WAS talking about black violence.

29A · Nov 29, 2014

Jango said:
From the OP:

Then came your post with the statistics, which were an attempt to downplay the accusation of racism and defend what the pastor said, that blacks are violent immoral criminals. As I've already said, the pastor poorly used his language skills, and ironically enough, you've bit down hard on the same hook he did.

Bauchum didn't at all say the bolded part.

He said violence, criminality, and immorality were "systemic issues plaguing black men. " And the statistics bear that out.

Expanded Homicide Data
Of the 12,765 murder victims in 2012 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.7 percent) were male.
Of the offenders for whom race was known, 53.4 percent were black, 44.3 percent were white, and 2.3 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,228 offenders.
FBI — Expanded Homicide Data

Also see.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Jango · Nov 29, 2014

29A said:
Bauchum didn't at all say the bolded part.

He said violence, criminality, and immorality were "systemic issues plaguing black men. " And the statistics bear that out.

Expanded Homicide Data
Of the 12,765 murder victims in 2012 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.7 percent) were male.
Of the offenders for whom race was known, 53.4 percent were black, 44.3 percent were white, and 2.3 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,228 offenders.
FBI — Expanded Homicide Data

Also see.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Black men, yeah, not some black men, like the ones the statistics represent, but just black men. He should have chosen his words more carefully.

SheWolf · Nov 29, 2014

Papa bull said:
When you cite factual statistics, you are trying to get people to look at things a certain way and that certain way is a factual way. It is absolutely relevant to a discussion about black violence to cite statistics of black violence and the author WAS talking about black violence.

I don't deny facts, I am failing to see the point you are trying to make with them... that since black on black crime is so high, the guy must have automatically attacked the cop? Or that he was a violent black guy, society is better off? :shrug:

How is it relevant to the issue of Ferguson???

ThePlayDrive · Nov 29, 2014

ocean515 said:
why would you call them racist?

I wish you had asked me this in the first place instead of putting words in my mouth instead.

Nonetheless, my answer is that I consider his argument to be racist because it ties criminality, immorality and "fatherless-less" to blackness even though none of the three is a trait of blackness. In other words, neither black people in general nor black men specifically are inherently or universally criminal, immoral or "fatherless". Those are racist stereotypes that unsupported by facts that the minister has internalized just like some women internalize sexism or some gay people internalize anti-gay attitudes.

Papa bull · Nov 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
I don't deny facts, I am failing to see the point you are trying to make with them...

I'm not trying to make a point with them. The author was trying to make a point with them. I think if you read the article again without trying to find something wrong with what he said just because he was criticizing the black community (from the perspective of a black man, no less), that you would probably see what he was trying to say. But if not, then you'd have to ask the author to clarify. I'm merely pointing out that there citing facts is just citing facts.

that since black on black crime is so high, the guy must have automatically attacked the cop? Or that he was a violent black guy, society is better off? :shrug:

I didn't conclude anything like that from reading what the author wrote so I don't know why you're asking those questions.

How is it relevant to the issue of Ferguson???

How is the high rate of black violence in black communities pertinent to Ferguson that just experienced a high level of violence in their black community? I dunno... seems pertinent to me.

ocean515 · Nov 29, 2014

ThePlayDrive said:
I wish you had asked me this in the first place instead of putting words in my mouth instead.

Nonetheless, my answer is that I consider his argument to be racist because it ties criminality, immorality and "fatherless-less" to blackness even though none of the three is a trait of blackness. In other words, neither black people in general nor black men specifically are inherently or universally criminal, immoral or "fatherless". Those are racist stereotypes that unsupported by facts that the minister has internalized just like some women internalize sexism or some gay people internalize anti-gay attitudes.

I did ask you. It's apparent your response was directed by your own internalization. Thanks for restating your original comments.

Visbek · Nov 29, 2014

Papa bull said:
I explained that the author correctly pointed out that Brown's own actions led him to his own death. He sowed violence. He reaped violence. He was looking for trouble and he found it.

Please.

He grabbed $10 worth of merchandise, and shoved a guy on his way out the door. He was walking in the middle of the street, and gave a cop some attitude. He was not pulling a "Natural Born Killers."

Nothing the author said can be construed to mean that he thought stealing 10 dollars worth of merchandise should result in the death penalty for offenders.

Nothing except his own actual words. Yeah, let's not let that get in the way.....

Papa bull · Nov 29, 2014

Visbek said:
Please.

He grabbed $10 worth of merchandise, and shoved a guy on his way out the door. He was walking in the middle of the street, and gave a cop some attitude. He was not pulling a "Natural Born Killers."

Nothing except his own actual words. Yeah, let's not let that get in the way.....

I think you should take a refresher class on reading comprehension. His words don't say what your words say they said.

ocean515 · Nov 29, 2014

Visbek said:
Please.

He grabbed $10 worth of merchandise, and shoved a guy on his way out the door. He was walking in the middle of the street, and gave a cop some attitude. He was not pulling a "Natural Born Killers."

Nothing except his own actual words. Yeah, let's not let that get in the way.....

Like a game of telephone where the story completely changes as it passes from one to the next, I am fascinated by what appears to be the morphing of facts in this case, especially the elimination of the most cogent facts involved.

I don't know if it's human nature, selective reasoning, or purposeful omission to maintain a bias and/or narrative.

Grand Jury testimony from a multitude of witnesses, both credible, and incredible, shows there was far more to the events that unfolded than $10 worth of stolen cigars and an attitude.

29A · Nov 30, 2014

Jango said:
Black men, yeah, not some black men, like the ones the statistics represent, but just black men. He should have chosen his words more carefully.

He kind of did say "some". "...systemic issues plaguing black men. "

plague
—n.
1. an epidemic disease that causes high mortality; pestilence.
2. an infectious, epidemic disease caused by a bacterium, Yersinia pestis, characterized by fever, chills, and prostration, transmitted to humans from rats by means of the bites of fleas. Cf. bubonic plague, pneumonic plague, septicemic plague.
3. any widespread affliction, calamity, or evil, esp. one regarded as a direct punishment by God: a plague of war and desolation.
4. any cause of trouble, annoyance, or vexation: Uninvited guests are a plague.
plague: meaning and definitions | Infoplease.com

tres borrachos · Nov 30, 2014

Jango said:
Black men, yeah, not some black men, like the ones the statistics represent, but just black men. He should have chosen his words more carefully.

Why? Seriously - did you think he was talking about every single black man in the United States today? Including himself, and his family, and his flock?

He was making a general statement in his writing and it's not a bad thing for a member of the black community to actually say these things. If he's wrong, then he should be proven wrong. But almost immediately in this thread his words and thoughts are just discounted. That doesn't help anything.

Jango · Nov 30, 2014

tres borrachos said:
Why? Seriously - did you think he was talking about every single black man in the United States today? Including himself, and his family, and his flock?

He was making a general statement in his writing and it's not a bad thing for a member of the black community to actually say these things. If he's wrong, then he should be proven wrong. But almost immediately in this thread his words and thoughts are just discounted. That doesn't help anything.

No, ma'am, I did not discount his message -- because those issues are plaguing a sizable percentage of the black community (just as they are in every community of peoples), I just targeted his language -- sounded too all-encompassing. Precision of language. I've recently gotten my ass grilled for imprecise language. It happens. :shrug:

American · Nov 30, 2014

Visbek said:
If so (and I don't think it is), then the "Christian perspective" is awfully myopic.

Contrary to the Rev's claims, Ferguson was not awash in black-on-black crime. Its crime rate is comparable to the US median. In comparison, nearby East St Louis has a crime rate 10x the national average. Its racial makeup has changed over the past 20 years. At one point it was 25% black, now it is closer to 67% black. Portraying it as comparable to Compton makes no sense.

Racism is certainly immoral. However, I don't see any indication that Christianity consistently labels it as a "sin." In fact, Biblical passages were routinely cited to support the institution of slavery, and later segregation. The idea of racism, as it exists in 20th and 21st century America, would be completely alien to any Biblical author.

And then we have gems like this....

"Moments before his death, Michael Brown had violently robbed a man in a store. A man doing the best he could to make a living. Minutes later, Brown reaped what he sowed, and was gunned down in the street. "

Officer Wilson had no idea that these two had apparently shoplifted some cigarillos from a nearby store; by his own claims, he saw them walking in the middle of the street, told them to get out of the middle of the road, they refused, he backed up his vehicle, and a violent confrontation started. Last I checked, neither shoplifting nor being a smartass to a cop qualifies as a capital crime. There are also millions of people around the world who commit far worse acts, who do not wind up "reaping what they sow."

The article is a blunt attempt to downplay and/or ignore the systemic issues of racism, that still plague our society today. Given that Liberation Theology was undoubtedly Christian in origin and nature, I see no reason why an examination of systemic issues is in any way incompatible with Christian thought.

This isn't a "Christian" perspective. It's a conservative perspective, from an author who apparently wants to pretend that racism, poverty and police policies have no effect whatsoever on our nation.

You mean attacking a police officer isn't a crime? Are you claiming he never attack Wilson, and Wilson just gunned him down for no good reason whatsoever...........AND a grand jury set the officer free to boot? The person who wrote the article probably knows a lot about racism and poverty.

American · Nov 30, 2014

SheWolf said:
Fatherlessness doesn't make people commit crime.... I think some of the claims he is making are unfounded and far from accurate.

I think it's a contributor.

lizzie · Nov 30, 2014

SheWolf said:
Fatherlessness doesn't make people commit crime.... I think some of the claims he is making are unfounded and far from accurate.

Fatherlessness doesn't "make" anyone commit crime. It makes it more likely to happen, because young males (especially males) need to learn how to treat others with respect, and learn how to act in society as a whole, and without good modeling, they sometimes fail to learn healthy interaction. No matter the color, young males need father-figure role models.

JumpinJack · Dec 2, 2014

ThePlayDrive said:
This is not a Christian perspective. This is a racist perspective. This "article" literally opens up by calling black men violent, immoral criminals. It's unfortunate that this Black minister has internalized this racist nonsense.

I would also like to share my favorite comment about the black father scapegoat :

From The Nation :

The Myth of the Magical Black Father | The Nation

I hear what you're quoting, but having a "baby daddy" in the city somewhere is not the same thing as having an involved father in the home, who has committed to both the mother and the children. That seems to be lacking in most families, but particularly in black families. Not sure how important it is, in the long run, but wanted to point that out.

Don't forget that having no father is better than having a bad father. And having a strong mother devoted to seeing her children grow up to be law abiding, happy, productive, well adjusted adults can make up for almost anything.

But there does seem to be something about the breakdown of SOME black families that is particular to that race or culture. That's my impression, from things I've read.

Kurmugeon · Dec 3, 2014

American said:
FERGUSON IS NOT ABOUT BLACK VS WHITE: MY THOUGHTS ON FERGUSON

I think this is pretty good piece on Ferguson from the Christian perspective.

Amen!

---------------

I am old.

I am old enough to remember Black Communities before the rise of the Counter-Culture, Gangsta-Rap, wide spread heavy drug addiction, generational welfare, and concept that being civil, well-spoken, well-dressed, and reserved, as a social liability of "Acting White"

Sadly, The rioting, drug dealing, and murdering Black People in Ferguson, and elsewhere, are like rabid dogs. They cannot be "Fixed". They are a real threat and hazard and will have to be dealt with... harshly.

Liberalism NEEDED "Designated Minority" RACE VICTIMS to become a mob threat enforcement tool, a racial preference pandered voting bloc, and race card white-guilt indoctrination tool.... so, they went out to fairly prosperous, up and coming Black communities, and MANUFACTURED GHETTOS.

Bill Cosby saw it, and spoke out against it, so he was destroyed.

There have been many others.

We, who Are NOT members of the urban, poor, Black communities, what ever race we might be, share some responsibility for what was done, in that we didn't do enough to STOP Liberals from what they deliberately did to those communities and their people.

Do we have the courage to stand up to Liberals yet?

Or will we let them do it again, this time with the Illegal Immigrants?

-

American · Dec 3, 2014

Kurmugeon said:
Amen!

---------------

I am old.

I am old enough to remember Black Communities before the rise of the Counter-Culture, Gangsta-Rap, wide spread heavy drug addiction, generational welfare, and concept that being civil, well-spoken, well-dressed, and reserved, as a social liability of "Acting White"

Sadly, The rioting, drug dealing, and murdering Black People in Ferguson, and elsewhere, are like rabid dogs. They cannot be "Fixed". They are a real threat and hazard and will have to be dealt with... harshly.

Liberalism NEEDED "Designated Minority" RACE VICTIMS to become a mob threat enforcement tool, a racial preference pandered voting bloc, and race card white-guilt indoctrination tool.... so, they went out to fairly prosperous, up and coming Black communities, and MANUFACTURED GHETTOS.

Bill Cosby saw it, and spoke out against it, so he was destroyed.

There have been many others.

We, who Are NOT members of the urban, poor, Black communities, what ever race we might be, share some responsibility for what was done, in that we didn't do enough to STOP Liberals from what they deliberately did to those communities and their people.

Do we have the courage to stand up to Liberals yet?

Or will we let them do it again, this time with the Illegal Immigrants?

-

Haha, you can expect to get pummeled by the lefties for that. :lol:

Kurmugeon · Dec 3, 2014

American said:
Haha, you can expect to get pummeled by the lefties for that. :lol:

The Left already Hates.... Not just me, but I am certainly included.

I don't kowtow to people who HATE.

The Lefties already pummel my threads and posts... so... so what?

Give them NOTHING, and work hard to defeat all of their goals.

The Left cannot, MUST NOT, be Trusted!

-

Ferguson is not about black vs white: My thoughts on ferguson

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

Papa bull

Papa bull

29A

Active member

Jango

SheWolf

ThePlayDrive

Papa bull

ocean515

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

Papa bull

ocean515

29A

Active member

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

Jango

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

lizzie

JumpinJack

Kurmugeon

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

Kurmugeon