• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hobby Lobby, Christian or Not?

No, now, calm down, you sound virtually like my spouse when we traveled through S. Dakota years ago and found out no alcoholic beverages were sold on Sundays, she was having a conniption fit because we couldn't purchase wine. LOL. she even went as far as to say out loud, "what kind of a sucky state is this", I almost had to put a muzzle on her. :lol:

Hell, I've lived in Texas for 52 years of my life, and didn't realize until just a few months ago, that I can't buy margaritas on Sundays. I had a particularly bad day at work one Sunday, and really wanted to come home and open a margarita, pour it over ice, and chill, but found that liquor stores were all closed. I guess that says that I am usually well-stocked, and don't even have to consider that could be an issue. :lol:
 
Why? What they decide to provide in their plans is their business. If they are against abortion even in the case of rape why should they be forced to provide coverage for it?

First of all, no employer should be required to do anything beyond providing a safe workplace and paying their employees a competitive wage that they determine is proper by offering it to employees and the employee accepting - not mandated by the government - including any benefits the company feels they need to offer to get the type of employee they want. What most liberals and progressives forget is, that employees have a choice of employers, and employers have a choice in who they hire; or at least they do so far. That may change though, but not without a huge fight from me and hell of a lot of others.

The abortion part of your post and the PPACA as a whole is taken care of by the first of all I wrote above.
 
Viagra is covered, so I can see why women would be demanding that the B/C Pill be covered too. But, I do smell the stench of intentional political polarization all over this whole controversy, Left and Right.

Why does Viagra get brought up all the time in these discussions? If the government is mandating Viagra be covered that should be repealed, but if it's not, I don't get this line of discussion.
 
Mandating the employers offer their employees anything is going too far. Just because someone opens a business doesn't make them the slaves of their employees or society as a whole. Voluntary exchange is not only a principle, but an essential part of human rights.

Btw, I do enjoy how liberals say the government doesn't force anyone to be involved in a womans decision to abort and then passes laws that do just that.

The birth control pill and plan b are not abortifacients. Hobby Lobby's objections to that effect are medically inaccurate.
 
How about cash? Do they get to decide what you can spend your money on? They are "providing" you with that money, after all.

Give me a break, a little seriousness would be much appreciated.
 
A business is just an extension of the owners. If the owners have certain rights those rights extend to the use of their property. This whole "it's just a company" talk is frankly missing the point.

I agree about property rights; the owners have rights to the assets of the company and the profits it garners. However, a corporation is a separate entity that exists only by a grant from the government. If a person wants to do business outside that grant and be a self employed individual without the protections that incorporation provides, then they can be a person with no separation of assets or beliefs. However, once they accept the personal protections and separations of liability and the protection of personal assets versus corporate assets granted through incorporation they accept that the corporate entity is a separate entity and that the protections by that separation also separate the person from the entity, including personal beliefs.
 
Give me a break, a little seriousness would be much appreciated.

Both are compensation. They aren't "provided" by the employer, the employee earns them with an exchange of labor.
 
Viagra is covered, so I can see why women would be demanding that the B/C Pill be covered too. But, I do smell the stench of intentional political polarization all over this whole controversy, Left and Right.

Probably so, I didn't know about Viagra. I can understand someone's religious views dictating on how they react or view certain things. But I also expect those very religious not to push their religion on me. It would seem to me if contraception has to go, so too Viagra. If I were Hobby Lobby and very adamant in thinking providing contraception to my employees is wrong and against my religion. I would just tell my employees, "Due to my religious beliefs and moral standards in being forced to provide contraception to you employees which is against my beliefs, we will not longer offer health insurance to you. You will have to use the exchanges if you want health insurance." Then pay the dang fine and be done with it.
 
$50 says it cost them about 5 times that much per employee.

Yeah, with every additional coverage the costs go up. If one can't afford 15 bucks a month for contraception, then keep their dang panties on until they come up with the change.
 
Probably so, I didn't know about Viagra. I can understand someone's religious views dictating on how they react or view certain things. But I also expect those very religious not to push their religion on me. It would seem to me if contraception has to go, so too Viagra. If I were Hobby Lobby and very adamant in thinking providing contraception to my employees is wrong and against my religion. I would just tell my employees, "Due to my religious beliefs and moral standards in being forced to provide contraception to you employees which is against my beliefs, we will not longer offer health insurance to you. You will have to use the exchanges if you want health insurance." Then pay the dang fine and be done with it.

I think they don't have an objection to Viagra because it doesn't cause an abortion. HL doesn't oppose providing birth control, in fact, they are willing to provide 16 types in their plans. It's the 4 that they consider to be abortion causing that they object to.
 
Yeah, with every additional coverage the costs go up. If one can't afford 15 bucks a month for contraception, then keep their dang panties on until they come up with the change.

Those people complaining about the 15 bucks per month for their BC pills will be a lot pissier when HL says "screw this, we'll pay the fine - get your own insurance" and they get stuck with a larger Obamacare bill.
 
It is asinine to assert that anyone who refuses to eat pork because it is a sin must also refuse to buy anything from anyone that eats pork lest they be considered a hypocrite. Doing business with someone that eats pork doesn't make you a pork-eater.

Just so we're clear, the only ethics that matter in business is maximizing profits? And no, doing business with someone who eats pork doesn't make YOU a pork eater, but you've made a fairly strong statement that you're OK with pork eaters. Let's rewrite that:

"Doing business with a slave trader doesn't make YOU a slave trader." True, but would anyone claim that doing business with such a person is ethical?

Heck, I at least expected right wingers to make a rational argument, such as, "Capitalism and the wealth it creates will ultimately undermine the oppressive communist regime and trading with them is the best long term strategy to bring freedom to the Chinese people...." That would be defensible. Claiming you have to turn a blind eye to human rights abuses to remain competitive and make a profit selling trinkets isn't. Seems obvious to me.
 
Those people complaining about the 15 bucks per month for their BC pills will be a lot pissier when HL says "screw this, we'll pay the fine - get your own insurance" and they get stuck with a larger Obamacare bill.

I do not know how much health insurance cost a large company like Hobby Lobby a month per employee. 400 perhaps 500 dollars a month. Paying the fine and not offering health insurance would really save the company lots of money. But I suppose Hobby Lobby would/might have to offer raises to partially off set the once offering of insurance.
 
I think they don't have an objection to Viagra because it doesn't cause an abortion. HL doesn't oppose providing birth control, in fact, they are willing to provide 16 types in their plans. It's the 4 that they consider to be abortion causing that they object to.

I didn't know that. Thanks.
 
I do not know how much health insurance cost a large company like Hobby Lobby a month per employee. 400 perhaps 500 dollars a month. Paying the fine and not offering health insurance would really save the company lots of money. But I suppose Hobby Lobby would/might have to offer raises to partially off set the once offering of insurance.

At least, I would think. You're right that the $2000 would be an overall savings. I'm not sure the majority of HL employees want to lose their insurance because a few want HL to pay for what HL deems (rightly or wrongly) to be abortion-inducing BC.

I also think the taxpayers would rather not have to pay any more in OCare subsidies than we have to, but $50 again says the HL OCare plans would quaify for subsidies.
 
Just so we're clear, the only ethics that matter in business is maximizing profits?

Wow. You start out right off the bat with a strawman. Let's see if it gets any better.....

And no, doing business with someone who eats pork doesn't make YOU a pork eater, but you've made a fairly strong statement that you're OK with pork eaters.

Well, color me shocked. Now it looks like you're actually on the right track. Just because you think eating pork is a sin doesn't mean you have to condemn anyone who does eat pork. You do understand the concept of "freedom of religion" right? It seems you do comprehend the notion that other people don't have to observe your particular religious beliefs, right?

Let's rewrite that:

"Doing business with a slave trader doesn't make YOU a slave trader." True, but would anyone claim that doing business with such a person is ethical?

Heck, I at least expected right wingers to make a rational argument, such as, "Capitalism and the wealth it creates will ultimately undermine the oppressive communist regime and trading with them is the best long term strategy to bring freedom to the Chinese people...." That would be defensible. Claiming you have to turn a blind eye to human rights abuses to remain competitive and make a profit selling trinkets isn't. Seems obvious to me.

Nope. Seems you don't get it at all. China manages China's affairs. If you think Chinese culture is your business, YOU boycott Chinese products. Other people like me figure China's culture is China's business. If you don't want to do business with China for whatever reasons you wish, then don't. I don't give much weight to the notion that we can't do business with any country that doesn't live up to our expectations.
 
So Christ would favor using sweatshop labor in an effort to remain competitive? Forced abortions and infanticide too.


Hey, it's all good as long as you deny contraception to your American employees.

No. Where did I say that. re-read what I wrote.

I don't remember the owner of Hobby Lobby or Hobby Lobby itself having a direct line to God or Jesus or any divinity for that matter.
Read what I wrote below.

You are just really, really trying to push forward and agenda, well... no. You're just the puppet. Someone who has been already taken into seeing the world in a certain way, an indoctrinated way, and now you devoted your life to promulgating that view. Which would be fine if it were in any way remotely correct, which it isn't. So there in lies the problem.

You're not alone. There are many, many people like you, hyperpartisan people, on multiple sides of all arguments.

So when I try to explain to you how economics works, ofc, that flies completely over your head and all you do is revert to the original wrong and unbelivably childish argument... which isn't even your own, you just read it in that article which is written by a highschool dropout or it better be... or else shame on the highschool he graduated from... and now you spew the same rhetoric as in the article. No original thought of your own. No meaningful addage. No nothing. You can't react to changing circumstances, to new information that doesn't come from the partisan networks that you watch. In short, your role as a human being in this discussion can be replaced by a copy paste function.

The problem is that a business cannot be "Christian" It is an affliction of human beings. Businesses have a higher calling...the almighty dollar! I hope that is what you are saying.

The only Christian business is the various christian churches and religions that act like businesses. And the only religious businesses are again, religions, all of them, or most of them, who act like businesses.

Everything else is a business. Whatever marketing ploys people employ to get their customers is irrelevant.

How would it help if Hobby Lobby stopped competing in the real world and started being uncompetitive? It'll go out of business. Then who will be happy? You and calamity. Who won't be happy? all the people who lose their jobs.
Also, re-read what I wrote. You don't wanna fall into the last paragraph.

EDIT: I have no stake in hobby lobby in any way. I don't give a damn about it. It can go bankrupt tomorrow for all I care. I am not even defending or arguing for this company. I'm just showcasing the immense hypocrisy and lack of discipline and knowledge in making an argument. This form of dialogue is unsutainable. I pray, not just to one god, but i'd pray to all the gods... even those god awful hindu gods, that this is not the attitude of the majority of people. But it is. And that's unfortunate. This is why there can be no debate on important topics. Because even with the best of efforts, even if you were to treat people like 5 years olds, you cannot get some notions passed some people. It's just impossible. their minds are shut down and they can accept no new information that conflicts... not even conflict, that doesn't fit the mold of their perceived world view 100%. If what you're saying isn't 100% what they think is true, they reject the new information completely, like it never existed. This is not a issue on one side of the political spectrum or the other, both sides have it, but it is more poignant, more... more incestuous on the left. On the right, it's just dumb.
 
Last edited:
I think they don't have an objection to Viagra because it doesn't cause an abortion. HL doesn't oppose providing birth control, in fact, they are willing to provide 16 types in their plans. It's the 4 that they consider to be abortion causing that they object to.

Except they are factually wrong on that count, so they can take their opinion and shove it. It doesn't matter how much I truly believe soap causes heart attacks because God told me so, I'm not exempt from health codes in my restaurant.
 
Except they are factually wrong on that count, so they can take their opinion and shove it. It doesn't matter how much I truly believe soap causes heart attacks because God told me so, I'm not exempt from health codes in my restaurant.

That's what the SCOTUS is going to decide. Your opinion isn't being argued in front of them.
 
That's what the SCOTUS is going to decide. Your opinion isn't being argued.

Oh well then let's just delete this entire thread because nobody's opinion matters. I'm sure you'll never again post in any thread where you aren't the one personally deciding the issue, right? Only judges, members of congress, executive department heads, and the President are allowed to post on this forum.
 
Oh well then let's just delete this entire thread because nobody's opinion matters. I'm sure you'll never again post in any thread where you aren't the one personally deciding the issue, right? Only judges, members of congress, executive department heads, and the President are allowed to post on this forum.

Um, the thread isn't about their stance on birth control. It was about an article that a guy wrote calling them hypocrites for doing business in China.

Don't embarrass yourself. Read the thread and OP before posting in it next time.
 
Does it equally amaze you at how much effort people put into the whole "you arent a Christian" thing? Cuz...you know...first blood. Without ****heads like the person who wrote the article, we wouldnt even HAVE these conversations, now would we.

Edit: It occurs to me that that COULD be your point and you view the writer of the article and those that would take such a tack with disdain...

My view is that anyone who claims to be a member of a religion and believes that they live by its ideals is a member. This means that various denominations, sects, and movements within a religion are all valid. Using my own experience as an example, the conservative Judaism of my birth was really no more or less valid than the reform Judaism of my adolescence. Likewise, Jihaddists are a portion of Islam, and the Hobby Lobby guys are Christian. The worst and the best aspects of a religion are all part of the mix.
 
Back
Top Bottom