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US embassies and consulates are NOT American soil

Sarcogito

Sarcogito

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I have served at numerous embassies throughout the course of my career. Hell, I even did a tour at our embassy in Libya and I know some of the people who died in the Benghazi incident. It has certainly hit the community hard.

I have been lurking in the threads here regarding the protests and attacks and everytime I start to post something I stop myself for fear of saying something I shouldn’t. I can’t comment on security but there are certainly a lot of misconceptions here about what happens at an embassy or consulate. But I recognize I will just have to continue to bite my tongue in frustration.

However, there is something people keep saying in one form or another. And that is that US embassies and consulates are “American soil”. The media and politicians keep repeating this as well.

It is not true. The land an embassy is built on remains part of the host nation. If a crime is commited on US embassy property, unless commited by an assigned American, it is in the jurisdiction of the host country. Now, the Geneva Convention prohibits the host country from entering embassy property without authorization from the Ambassador, and like the diplomats inside it is exempt from many local laws, but that is it. It is American property, not America.

That is a pretty petty thing for me to comment on regarding the recent incidents but it is the only thing I feel safe bitching about.
 
It's a distinction, but a highly technical one with little, if any, practical difference.

It's definitely more than just American "property," as if it's an office building owned by IBM or something.
 
But then there it is.....you said it. Rented or leased property that whatever it is we may do. Is our buisness and not that of yours. Still we are in buisness together. Protecting my interests which is of course aligned with your interests. In Which we do all to help you gain that which you seek. Term and conditions of the property are we leave it in the condition of that which it was. All laws to your country are under your jurisdiction. Which even we are subject to. Yet we tell you up front that there is process thru law which we ourselves must go thru with our own laws. So while law in your country is your jurisdiction. Law on the land leased. Will be governed by our laws. Which we are a lawful people.

Course we are making them offers they cannot refuse for our own interests and also because we are the Bad Boy in the Room. Our Way or the Highway. But Buisness.....is both our ways. Technicalities can be worked around. Indeed there are other aspects which we both know go into other details that really doesnt encompass the all of what I said. Which does not change the realities on the ground.
 
Harshaw said:
It's a distinction, but a highly technical one with little, if any, practical difference.

It's definitely more than just American "property," as if it's an office building owned by IBM or something.
Click to expand...

In some ways yes and in some ways no. People have this idea in their head of an embassy being a gated compound. And many times it is. But we also have embassies that just occupy a couple floors in a high rise office buidling with the tenants above and below us being just regular businesses. We pay rent and utilties. Our utilties can be cut off and we can be evicted. And the host country gets to dictate how many people we can have working there.

But I get what you are saying also. The country I am currently assigned in can no more tell me what to do inside the embassy than it can if I am back home in Texas. But I have heard the attack on our consulate being called an attack on American soil which it wasn’t. It was an attack on Americans. It is bad enough without having to be sensationalized.
 
Sarcogito said:
IAnd many times it is. But we also have embassies that just occupy a couple floors in a high rise office buidling with the tenants above and below us being just regular businesses. We pay rent and utilties. Our utilties can be cut off and we can be evicted. And the host country gets to dictate how many people we can have working there.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about embassies or consulates here? There's a difference.
 
Sarcogito said:
I have served at numerous embassies throughout the course of my career. Hell, I even did a tour at our embassy in Libya and I know some of the people who died in the Benghazi incident. It has certainly hit the community hard.

I have been lurking in the threads here regarding the protests and attacks and everytime I start to post something I stop myself for fear of saying something I shouldn’t. I can’t comment on security but there are certainly a lot of misconceptions here about what happens at an embassy or consulate. But I recognize I will just have to continue to bite my tongue in frustration.

However, there is something people keep saying in one form or another. And that is that US embassies and consulates are “American soil”. The media and politicians keep repeating this as well.

It is not true. The land an embassy is built on remains part of the host nation. If a crime is commited on US embassy property, unless commited by an assigned American, it is in the jurisdiction of the host country. Now, the Geneva Convention prohibits the host country from entering embassy property without authorization from the Ambassador, and like the diplomats inside it is exempt from many local laws, but that is it. It is American property, not America.

That is a pretty petty thing for me to comment on regarding the recent incidents but it is the only thing I feel safe bitching about.
Click to expand...

I am so sorry that you have lost friends. Most Americans can't make the distinction between diplomatic immunity and property ownership... or they think US law applies everywhere around the world.

I would like to hear what you have to say about this situation.
 
Harshaw said:
Are you talking about embassies or consulates here? There's a difference.
Click to expand...

Both. Granted, the US itself has been moving away from that more and more for security reasons but plenty of other countries still opt for renting spaces in an office building.
 
sharon said:
I am so sorry that you have lost friends. Most Americans can't make the distinction between diplomatic immunity and property ownership...
Click to expand...

You, yourself, are misapplying the term "diplomatic immunity."

or they think US law applies everywhere around the world.
Click to expand...

No one thinks that.
 
Sarcogito said:
Both. Granted, the US itself has been moving away from that more and more for security reasons but plenty of other countries still opt for renting spaces in an office building.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that any embassies were that way, but of course many consulates are. I bring it up because consulates don't have the same status.
 
Sarcogito said:
In some ways yes and in some ways no. People have this idea in their head of an embassy being a gated compound. And many times it is. But we also have embassies that just occupy a couple floors in a high rise office buidling with the tenants above and below us being just regular businesses. We pay rent and utilties. Our utilties can be cut off and we can be evicted. And the host country gets to dictate how many people we can have working there.

But I get what you are saying also. The country I am currently assigned in can no more tell me what to do inside the embassy than it can if I am back home in Texas. But I have heard the attack on our consulate being called an attack on American soil which it wasn’t. It was an attack on Americans. It is bad enough without having to be sensationalized.
Click to expand...

Good call.....an Attack on Americans. although they have been directing attacks on others. Such as the Brits and French. Yet lets not forget we are responsible for the Property leased.
 
sharon said:
I am so sorry that you have lost friends. Most Americans can't make the distinction between diplomatic immunity and property ownership... or they think US law applies everywhere around the world.

I would like to hear what you have to say about this situation.
Click to expand...

Thanks. There isn’t much I can say. The criminals that orchestrated the attack are not representative of Libyans as a whole. Most Libyans actually like Americans. That was even the case under Qadhafi. Although they HATED Reagan. I was close with the Libyan FSNs (Foreign Service Nationals) whom I worked with. We visited each others’ homes and our kids played together. And it angers me when I see some people lumping them all together with the thugs who murdered our people. They gave their lives attempting to defend our consulate as well. It is just a horrible situation all around.
 
Are you still in touch with those in your field today? Do you think AQ is taking responsibility for the hit due to no others?

What about sending the FBI in to go and try and track down these Criminals as the State Dept is Trying to classify them. Do you think the FBI should be doing so? Considering the Circumstances.
 
Harshaw said:
I wasn't aware that any embassies were that way, but of course many consulates are. I bring it up because consulates don't have the same status.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and some in the media have been mixing consulate and embassy up as well. When I heard the Ambassador died in the consulate I assumed there was a mistake because the Ambassador works at the embassy in Tripoli. But he was on an official visit. We didn’t have a consulate when I was stationed there, just an embassy.
 
Sarcogito said:
Thanks. There isn’t much I can say. The criminals that orchestrated the attack are not representative of Libyans as a whole. Most Libyans actually like Americans. That was even the case under Qadhafi. Although they HATED Reagan. I was close with the Libyan FSNs (Foreign Service Nationals) whom I worked with. We visited each others’ homes and our kids played together. And it angers me when I see some people lumping them all together with the thugs who murdered our people. They gave their lives attempting to defend our consulate as well. It is just a horrible situation all around.
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Is the Embassy still in that Sidi Slimm neighborhood? I cannot for the life of me find our old street address when we lived across from the embassy.

I agree that the crazies don't represent the majority of Libyans... and once again, I am sorry you lost friends.
 
MMC said:
Are you still in touch with those in your field today? Do you think AQ is taking responsibility for the hit due to no others?

What about sending the FBI in to go and try and track down these Criminals as the State Dept is Trying to classify them. Do you think the FBI should be doing so? Considering the Circumstances.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am still in the field. In fact I am posting this from my embassy office right now. Don't worry tax payers, I am off duty. ;)

Because of my position I am goign to intentionally ignore some fo those questions. No offense. Personally I would like to see the FBI brought in because they bring a lot of experience and assets to bear. I am sure the Libyan authorites would welcome them. They just have to ensure it is reasonably safe for them.
 
Sarcogito said:
Yes, I am still in the field. In fact I am posting this from my embassy office right now. Don't worry tax payers, I am off duty. ;)

Because of my position I am goign to intentionally ignore some fo those questions. No offense. Personally I would like to see the FBI brought in because they bring a lot of experience and assets to bear. I am sure the Libyan authorites would welcome them. They just have to ensure it is reasonably safe for them.
Click to expand...

NP......I Undestand. I was going with the Assessment of Intel on AQ and several others who have are running around with 200-300 fighters. It was my understanding that all pretty much knew about the AQ operative that was in Britain and is now there directing things there in Libya. As well as Stevens assessment of the salafis in the region around Benghazi.
 
sharon said:
Is the Embassy still in that Sidi Slimm neighborhood? I cannot for the life of me find our old street address when we lived across from the embassy.

I agree that the crazies don't represent the majority of Libyans... and once again, I am sorry you lost friends.
Click to expand...

Were you there after the Arab Spring revoultion? I think the compund in that neighborhood is the newer one. I worked in the previous one that was destroyed during the revolution.
 
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