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Public spending and the 80/20 rule

Slartibartfast

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What I am curious about is if public spending (or any type of spending really, such as medical) responds to the 80/20 rule. Most people can be helped easily and some require a lot of resources to help for whatever reason.

If so, would it make sense to base our public spending on this? We could potentially save big bucks and help out people in a more efficient manner.

Obviously it sucks that people will fall through the cracks, but if we do what we can in a sustainable way, more good would probably be done overall in the long term with our public policy.

Anyway, just a musing.

Its cruel and I hate that, but in life we do what we can :(
 
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End of life care for the elderly consumes a significant portion of the Medicare budget, but the increased spending doesn't really improve the health outcomes. If the primary goal was simply to save lives, you could refuse medicare for futile terminal cases and then use the money on federal safety regulations for a net positive outcome. Even the most inefficient methods like the mandatory backup-cameras still have a better cost benefit ratio.

However, Try publicly advocating for that and see how quickly you end up crucified. Saying "life has no price" is utter nonsense in the zero-sum game of resource distribution, but its heavily ingrained in the public psyche.
 
If you want public funds to be efficiently allocated then simply give taxpayers the freedom to choose which government organizations they give their taxes to. You've heard me say this before...so not quite sure which part you disagree with. Let me try and break it down real simple times like...

You give National Defense $1....and receive 1 value in return
You give the EPA $1................and receive 5 values in return
You give Public Education $1....and receive 10 values in return

In economic terms you'd receive a certain amount of "utility" in return for your $1.

So who do you give your taxes to? You'd give your taxes to whichever government organizations maximized YOUR utility. What happens when 150 million taxpayers try and maximize the utility they each derive from their taxes in the public sector? Public funds would be efficiently allocated. What happens when public funds are efficiently allocated? Your wildest dreams come true. Money back guaranteed.
 
If you want public funds to be efficiently allocated then simply give taxpayers the freedom to choose which government organizations they give their taxes to. You've heard me say this before...so not quite sure which part you disagree with. Let me try and break it down real simple times like...

You give National Defense $1....and receive 1 value in return
You give the EPA $1................and receive 5 values in return
You give Public Education $1....and receive 10 values in return

In economic terms you'd receive a certain amount of "utility" in return for your $1.

So who do you give your taxes to? You'd give your taxes to whichever government organizations maximized YOUR utility. What happens when 150 million taxpayers try and maximize the utility they each derive from their taxes in the public sector? Public funds would be efficiently allocated. What happens when public funds are efficiently allocated? Your wildest dreams come true. Money back guaranteed.

Don't jack my thread with your bull**** that nobody cares about please.
 
Don't jack my thread with your bull**** that nobody cares about please.

Don't post bull**** economic ignorance in the forum that I frequent and we won't have a problem! Please thank you very much.
 
damnit, xerographic ruins another thread :(
 
damnit, xerographic ruins another thread :(

It doesn't have to be ruined. Why don't we just take this opportunity to address your economic ignorance? It's better late than never! That way I won't have to keep "ruining" your threads.

Where to start? Hmmm...are you familiar with the opportunity cost concept?
 
End of life care for the elderly consumes a significant portion of the Medicare budget, but the increased spending doesn't really improve the health outcomes. If the primary goal was simply to save lives, you could refuse medicare for futile terminal cases and then use the money on federal safety regulations for a net positive outcome. Even the most inefficient methods like the mandatory backup-cameras still have a better cost benefit ratio.

However, Try publicly advocating for that and see how quickly you end up crucified. Saying "life has no price" is utter nonsense in the zero-sum game of resource distribution, but its heavily ingrained in the public psyche.

In case you accidentally didn't see my questions...here are they
 
It doesn't have to be ruined. Why don't we just take this opportunity to address your economic ignorance? It's better late than never! That way I won't have to keep "ruining" your threads.

Where to start? Hmmm...are you familiar with the opportunity cost concept?

Here's a tip:

There's no such thing as this unit of "value" you invented.

Here's another tip:

All of us understand the concept of opportunity cost. You, on the other hand, do not, because you apply the concept to situations that do not warrant it.
 
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Here's a tip:

There's no such thing as this unit of "value" you invented.

Here's another tip:

All of us understand the concept of opportunity cost. You, on the other hand, do not, because you apply the concept to situations that do not warrant it.

Harry Guerrilla warned me not to share my perspective in other people's threads any more...so I posted my response here...
 
What I am curious about is if public spending (or any type of spending really, such as medical) responds to the 80/20 rule. Most people can be helped easily and some require a lot of resources to help for whatever reason.

If so, would it make sense to base our public spending on this? We could potentially save big bucks and help out people in a more efficient manner.

Obviously it sucks that people will fall through the cracks, but if we do what we can in a sustainable way, more good would probably be done overall in the long term with our public policy.

Anyway, just a musing.

Its cruel and I hate that, but in life we do what we can :(
Could you expand on this a bit. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 80/20 rule as it relates to this.
 
What I am curious about is if public spending (or any type of spending really, such as medical) responds to the 80/20 rule. Most people can be helped easily and some require a lot of resources to help for whatever reason.

If so, would it make sense to base our public spending on this? We could potentially save big bucks and help out people in a more efficient manner.

Obviously it sucks that people will fall through the cracks, but if we do what we can in a sustainable way, more good would probably be done overall in the long term with our public policy.

Anyway, just a musing.

Its cruel and I hate that, but in life we do what we can :(

It's a good musing; you can only do so much. It's when you're trying to chase down the last bit that you end up using most of the resources, resources which might be better used elsewhere.
 
Could you expand on this a bit. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 80/20 rule as it relates to this.

The idea that some people are helped easily. In terms of welfare, lets say they are the family who would rather be successful on their own but have temporarily fallen on hard times.

At the other end of the spectrum you have people with chronic issue and thus are more expensive.
 
The idea that some people are helped easily. In terms of welfare, lets say they are the family who would rather be successful on their own but have temporarily fallen on hard times.

At the other end of the spectrum you have people with chronic issue and thus are more expensive.

I don't understand this too.
Could you provide more detail?
 
I don't understand this too.
Could you provide more detail?

hrm

ok in a nutshell, the 80/20 rule goes along the lines of 20% of the effort gets 80% of the results. That last 20% results takes the remaining 80% of the effort. In other words, diminishing returns.

When it comes to people, the majority are honest, hardworking people or people with temporary problems and the minority are people who would seek to take advantage of the situation or are people with chronic problems.

So, with that in mind, the idea that you can help most of the people with a substantially smaller social spending budget may be valid (keep in mind, this is a musing, I have no info on whether this idea is true or not), meaning in terms of federal government budgetting, you could seriously reduce the budget and still do a ****ton of good.

However, it would mean that the system is designed to let some fail and possibly starve or what not. That is cruel and inhuman.

On the other hand, it would be sustainable because it costs so much less and thus possible do more good in the long term than other designs. Also, people do need an incentive to work hard and that means real consequences if they don't. So it would help our culture too.
 
hrm

ok in a nutshell, the 80/20 rule goes along the lines of 20% of the effort gets 80% of the results. That last 20% results takes the remaining 80% of the effort. In other words, diminishing returns.

When it comes to people, the majority are honest, hardworking people or people with temporary problems and the minority are people who would seek to take advantage of the situation or are people with chronic problems.

So, with that in mind, the idea that you can help most of the people with a substantially smaller social spending budget may be valid (keep in mind, this is a musing, I have no info on whether this idea is true or not), meaning in terms of federal government budgetting, you could seriously reduce the budget and still do a ****ton of good.

However, it would mean that the system is designed to let some fail and possibly starve or what not. That is cruel and inhuman.

On the other hand, it would be sustainable because it costs so much less and thus possible do more good in the long term than other designs. Also, people do need an incentive to work hard and that means real consequences if they don't. So it would help our culture too.

I get yea now, thanks for explaining.
I could get behind something like that.
 
Your idea is dumb. It's not enough to provide for 80% of the population and leave 20% to die. They already had a system which was something like that, only better for the "20%" than death. It was called slavery.
 
hrm

ok in a nutshell, the 80/20 rule goes along the lines of 20% of the effort gets 80% of the results. That last 20% results takes the remaining 80% of the effort. In other words, diminishing returns.

When it comes to people, the majority are honest, hardworking people or people with temporary problems and the minority are people who would seek to take advantage of the situation or are people with chronic problems.

So, with that in mind, the idea that you can help most of the people with a substantially smaller social spending budget may be valid (keep in mind, this is a musing, I have no info on whether this idea is true or not), meaning in terms of federal government budgetting, you could seriously reduce the budget and still do a ****ton of good.

However, it would mean that the system is designed to let some fail and possibly starve or what not. That is cruel and inhuman.

On the other hand, it would be sustainable because it costs so much less and thus possible do more good in the long term than other designs. Also, people do need an incentive to work hard and that means real consequences if they don't. So it would help our culture too.
Ok, I gotcha. I think there is some logic to this. What comes to mind when I read it is the standard Libertarian claim that private charity would take care of everything and everyone that needed taking care of if the government didn't do it. I have issues with that claim, but suffice it to say for this discussion that I don't think private charity would be anywhere near enough.

However, if we were to do something along the lines of what you're saying here, I can see a scenario where private charity would pick up most or all of the slack. I think that would be very doable. I do not see a scenario where people would be "left to die" as someone put it above.
 
Ok, I gotcha. I think there is some logic to this. What comes to mind when I read it is the standard Libertarian claim that private charity would take care of everything and everyone that needed taking care of if the government didn't do it.

That's a mischaracterization of libertarianism. Libertarians do not make this claim in general. The goal isn't to create some utopian society whereby no one starves and every free adult has its needs met for it, whether by charity or whatever else. Repeat: Libertarians do NOT envision a society in which "all needs be met" as a pre-condition. This is utopian and unhealthy for people to get used to. And anyone who suggests private charity WILL meet all needs is being an idiot. Of course it won't. But that's not the point.

I do not want our society to be one where people have no need to be concerned about poverty, starvation, homelessness, etc. Healthy fear of these things motivates us to be more valuable to others and contribute to a better society. But it's not "better" when we insist that there be no chance for anyone to suffer. That is demotivating and leads us to expect our society to contribute to our individual needs, rather than the other way around.

I have issues with that claim, but suffice it to say for this discussion that I don't think private charity would be anywhere near enough.

There is no "enough." If "enough" means that no one dare suffer, then you're already providing too much, rather than letting people find ways to provide for themselves. If you only require that they pout and say "I can't" and then reward them with a daily ration, then you've started to make a livelihood out of saying "I can't." It is an inescapable dilemma, unless you allow there to be some chance for failure.

However, if we were to do something along the lines of what you're saying here, I can see a scenario where private charity would pick up most or all of the slack. I think that would be very doable. I do not see a scenario where people would be "left to die" as someone put it above.

This comes more in alignment with what I'm talking about. People are too short-term focused. "Eliminate welfare?! Then we'll all die in the streets!" or so they always say. If you yank the government safety nets out from under people, yes, some people will suffer and some will die earlier than they would have if they had a blank check from the taxpayers. But over time people adjust to their environments, and their freedom to self-regulate adds up to create some significant social change. If something is getting oppressively expensive, or the the companies providing it no longer have a consumer base because the jobs are all gone or too low-paying, then let there be the blowback from that. There NEEDS to be blowback from that.

I have no idea the degree to which privately charitable causes would pick up over time if we eliminated the "safety net." But I'll say this: there is greater resentment in forced charity than there is in voluntary charity. So personally I resent some people's insistence on devaluing charity as some pathetic failure of a thing. That's sick. The spirit of giving is not in paying taxes for welfare programs. The spirit of giving is in an individual's decision to help another. I think fostering a greater sense of charity requires dismantling the government schemes that keep people hooked into free money, and letting the consequences play out, and letting our citizens see the benefit in organizing themselves to improve their own communities.

But to dismiss charity as a failure because it won't meet ALL needs EVERYWHERE, and then look to government redistributive schemes, is like planting a sapling for natural shade and then stomping on it because it didn't grow fast enough, and then saying that trees in general do not provide natural shade. We crush the potential for a genuinely charitable society when government says "let me do it" and people all fall in line and, as a part of empowering that government, devalue genuine, charitable acts as insufficient failures because they don't accomplish some unrealistically lofty standard. That is a toxic, self-defeating attitude.
 
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