Thread: Christian Nation?

Originally Posted by alexa

What is this Judeo-Christian nation stuff Djoop and what makes you believe it is something to be cherished?

Did I say it needs to be cherished? It's simply part of our cultural heritage, you couldn't understand dutch literature without knowledge of the bible, biblical motives.

Christianity and violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The reality of 'Judeo-Christian' culture which as you can see above is not something which is to be applauded leading as it did to such depravity of atrocities is not something anyone should be proud of or wanting to re-engage.

I agree, but I don't think that's the part anyone will applaud, or set as an example.

However regarding any country in the West actually considering itself Judeo-Christian, we can see this is not present until the 1930's in the US, not the Netherlands as far as I am aware.
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I think you are rewriting history suggesting the Netherlands are Judeo-Christian unless you are demanding the right to massacre all those different to yourself - which sadly is what some who have taken to this way, as worst shown by Breivik, show. I know not you Djoop but I do not think it is correct to say the Netherlands comes from a Judeo-Christian tradition/history/culture unless you accept what that is and want to revert to such gross exclusionist behaviour and that is unfortunately the way that term is presently being used by anti Islam extremists.

I think you're truly mistaken. I assume you're not very familiar with dutch history either. Now I can easily provide you some if you're interested, but this is not a kind way to ask. I merely stated a fact about the Netherlands. Not one I invented nor particularly cherish.

Originally Posted by Djoop

Did I say it needs to be cherished? It's simply part of our cultural heritage, you couldn't understand dutch literature without knowledge of the bible, biblical motives.

fair enough, I have never read any Dutch literature. I did not realise you were all so religious.

Originally Posted by Djoop

I agree, but I don't think that's the part anyone will applaud, or set as an example.

You are right, they rather try to pretend it was not there but unfortunately it is a very big part of anything which could be called Judeo-Christian - which as I said is a relatively new term.

Originally Posted by Djoop

I think you're truly mistaken. I assume you're not very familiar with dutch history either. Now I can easily provide you some if you're interested, but this is not a kind way to ask. I merely stated a fact about the Netherlands. Not one I invented nor particularly cherish.

I did exclude you so it was not personal. It is how I see things.The Judeo-Christian concept arose in the US in the 30's and can be seen to have arisen as an attempt to heal not represent history.

So yes, if you can show me when the term Judeo-Christian began to be used in the Netherlands and why it means something positive rather than negative I would indeed be interested to see.

As you know I have been around for some time and I know I never heard this term in the UK, until I think I heard Cameron using it a couple of weeks ago. I believe it is propaganda, developing a 1984 type revised history being used to serve an agenda. I understood the UK and Europe to be secular. If we now wish to say we have a Judeo-Christian culture then we need to accept that that culture is based on intolerance and massacres of those who are different. What I am seeing is people wanting to give praise where praise does not belong.

What I also find even more scary in the way this term is now being used is with it's support for Israel. Now people may support Israel or not as their conscience sees right on this matter or that but the support for this current Judeo-Christian concept is linked to a support for Israel right or wrong as again is seen in anti Islam extremists, some of which like it as a way to get rid of Jews, antisemitism in disguise, and others who are wanting the 'Promised land' for themselves - that is with the death of 2/3rds of Jews and the rest returning to Christianity which gets the whole of the Middle East.

What I am wanting to know is when you first began to think of yourself as a Judeo-Christian country. My early life saw the UK become secular and the Church itself move towards an ever greater acceptance and inclusive respect of other religions. This Judeo-Christian racket is the opposite. It is not true as our history and it is unhealthy. As the article clearly shows the biggest conflicts in the West were between Catholics and Protestants - there was not even Christian unity.

Privately, Franklin Roosevelt could be cutting about Jews and Catholics, once announcing that the United States was “a Protestant country, and the Catholics and Jews are here under sufferance.”

Three-Part Harmony - by Adam Kirsch - Tablet Magazine – Jewish News and Politics, Jewish Arts and Culture, Jewish Life and Religion

Anyway please tell me what you mean by it and when you first heard the term in Holland.

Originally Posted by alexa

fair enough, I have never read any Dutch literature. I did not realise you were all so religious.

We once were, and the change to a secular society didn't happen overnight. It's a red line in our history, from the moment we wanted to ostracize the Spanish king and its Inquisition. In recent times, we had gay authors critizing christian morality, it's all part of our development.

I did exclude you so it was not personal. It is how I see things.The Judeo-Christian concept arose in the US in the 30's and can be seen to have arisen as an attempt to heal not represent history.

Heal what? You know about the Hebrew Bible right?! One could also say that Islam was influenced by judaism. The dutch nation was formed during an era in which portuguese jews (and muslims) fled to Amsterdam. They had a huge influence on our culture, the philosophy leading to the Enlightenment in the 18th century. Take Spinoza. Nowadays, Islam is also part of the tradition. It's not necessarily an exclusion to say that our culture is (historically) based on judeo-christian values.

So yes, if you can show me when the term Judeo-Christian began to be used in the Netherlands and why it means something positive rather than negative I would indeed be interested to see.

As far as the 17th century when they buried a secular jew in a prominent dutch church. I've been in the park this morning and they assured me he's still there. Can you guess why some would find that a positive development in 17th century Europe?

As you know I have been around for some time and I know I never heard this term in the UK, until I think I heard Cameron using it a couple of weeks ago. I believe it is propaganda, developing a 1984 type revised history being used to serve an agenda. I understood the UK and Europe to be secular. If we now wish to say we have a Judeo-Christian culture then we need to accept that that culture is based on intolerance and massacres of those who are different. What I am seeing is people wanting to give praise where praise does not belong.
What I also find even more scary in the way this term is now being used is with it's support for Israel. Now people may support Israel or not as their conscience sees right on this matter or that but the support for this current Judeo-Christian concept is linked to a support for Israel right or wrong as again is seen in anti Islam extremists, some of which like it as a way to get rid of Jews, antisemitism in disguise, and others who are wanting the 'Promised land' for themselves - that is with the death of 2/3rds of Jews and the rest returning to Christianity which gets the whole of the Middle East.
What I am wanting to know is when you first began to think of yourself as a Judeo-Christian country. My early life saw the UK become secular and the Church itself move towards an ever greater acceptance and inclusive respect of other religions. This Judeo-Christian racket is the opposite. It is not true as our history and it is unhealthy. As the article clearly shows the biggest conflicts in the West were between Catholics and Protestants - there was not even Christian unity.
Three-Part Harmony - by Adam Kirsch - Tablet Magazine – Jewish News and Politics, Jewish Arts and Culture, Jewish Life and Religion

Anyway please tell me what you mean by it and when you first heard the term in Holland.

I understand the part about right wing rhetoric, and I don't feel comfortable how the term can be used in that manner. Aside from that, I prefer 'secular' myself. The last 50 years of our history we have been secular and I like to keep it that way. No part of me wants to return to religious extremists my ancestors must have been.

Jesus wasn't an English speaking white man???????????

Originally Posted by samsmart

And while many citizens were Christian during the founding of our country, many of the educated class were actually deistic or agnostic.

The latter part is said often but seemingly rarely with any kind of actual factual back up supporting it. While its unquestionable that there were members of the educated class that were deistic or agnostic, please show any factual evidence to suggest that "Many" of them were rather than it being individual pockets specifically with regards to some of the ones that history focuses more on.

Just one of my pet peeves. It seems like the push in the past decade or two to fight against the notion that the founders were all evangelical Christians got to the place where the point was made and then went "Well ****, lets keep pushing for the hell of it" and is now promoting as much propoganda as the other side was. Based on what's known of that time on a general sense, the notion that "Many" in the educated class or aristocracy were agnostic or deistic just defies logic and common sense to me and I've never really seeny anything solid to suggest otherwise. At best even some of the "diestic" types seem similar to I, where there's a belief in the divine and its presence in nature in a general sense without a large care or desire for organized religion in a general sense whlie on a personal level still adhering to the generalized christian faith and teachings.

We have never, and likely will never, be a Christian STATE.

Due to the overwhelming majority of early American's being Christian, I personally believe it would be accurate to refer to the USA as a "Christian Nation" during its founding and early years. While Tucker and I have gone around quite a bit on this notion and he's swayed me from believing it would be accurate to refer to us as such today, the overwhelming majority of individuals who subscribed to Christian beliefs and the more interwoven it was into the lives of many at the time of the founding compared to today makes me still think it's accurate to refer to it as such.

We were people who shared a general territory that together had shared culture and history with regards to our root religion with the overwhelming majority of people. While acknowledging the multiple branches of Christianity, the foundation all are built off remains the same. While it is not the only describable "nation" within the USA, I think in its early days it would be absolutely accurate.

With the rise in followers of various other religions and athiesism in this country, the percentage of the population that is Christian has shrunk substantially. Additionally, the strength of individuals convictions and adherance to their faith as a matter of routine and daily life seems to have subsided significantly. With those factors in place, I do not believe it's accurate to describe us as a blanket "Christian Nation" any longer. A "Largely Christian Nation" or a "Majority Christian Nation" perhaps, but over arching and all inclusive terminology would no longer be accurate.

However, when it comes to speaking about the State, not the nation, its undeniable with a thurough and honest bit of research into the Founders and many of the thinkers the founders used as the basis for their thoughts that this country was based at least in part, if not in large part, on Christian beliefs and philosophies that sprung from Christian Theological thought. However, what was the basis for the thinking of individual framers does not consistute the foundation of the State. That is created through the laws and documents which bind it, things which do not establish nor lend favor towards nor promote Christianity beyond any other religious belief system.

So a Christian Nation? Arguably, and in my opinion correctly, to be said about the time of the founding and the early days of the Country but no longer.

A Christian State? Never has been and likely never will be.

Originally Posted by Djoop

We once were, and the change to a secular society didn't happen overnight. It's a red line in our history, from the moment we wanted to ostracize the Spanish king and its Inquisition. In recent times, we had gay authors critizing christian morality, it's all part of our development.

Ok but that sounds like Christianity not Judaism and you said your literature.

Originally Posted by Djoop

Heal what?

You have not heard of antisemitism throughout the last 2000 years? I was referring to the beginning of the term Judeo-Christian in the US in the 1930's. I had already left a quote referring to what I was referring to - that is both the prejudice against Catholics and Jews in Protestant America. Here is that bit again.

The very term “Judeo-Christian,” which is now a cliché in American political discourse, represents a healing of a 2,000-year-old breach, an off-hand repudiation of the whole bloody history of Christian anti-Judaism.

For if one of its goals was to bridge the divide between Jews and Christians, the other was to stimulate good will between Protestant and Catholics—groups whose antagonism had been a far more important feature of American history.

Three-Part Harmony - by Adam Kirsch - Tablet Magazine – Jewish News and Politics, Jewish Arts and Culture, Jewish Life and Religion

Originally Posted by Djoop

You know about the Hebrew Bible right?!

yes, and....

Originally Posted by Djoop

One could also say that Islam was influenced by judaism.

One could. I know that Mohamed worked with Israel tribes and Islam is one of the Abrahamic faiths. I am sure living among Jews as he did they had an effect on him.

Originally Posted by Djoop

The dutch nation was formed during an era in which portuguese jews (and muslims) fled to Amsterdam. They had a huge influence on our culture, the philosophy leading to the Enlightenment in the 18th century. Take Spinoza. Nowadays, Islam is also part of the tradition.

While I notice that Sephardic Jews were very successful and I grant that from around the 17th C some Jews gave a lot to Holland in trade and working as Drs and so on, they were not allowed for instance to study things like law and emancipation in Dutch society did not come until it was put in by a French 'puppet' government in 1796 and even then the rights were rebuffed by the Dutch people. It was not until the 19the C that they got full rights and even then they were dependent on assimilation

An economic boom benefitted the Jews, who became active in the cotton industry, and returned to the diamond industry. As their prosperity grew, so too did their rights. King William I began to regulate the Jewish community's internal affairs, effectively disbanding the Netherlands kehilla; he instituted compulsory secular education for Jewish children; and he waged a determined battle against Yiddish, which resulted in the Jews' widespread adoption of Dutch. The efforts of the government were aided by those of the Dutch maskilim, who were of course in favor of integration. Soon, Jews infiltrated the professional classes, and many became doctors and lawyers.

The new opportunities for Jews were most available in the cities, resulting in the consolidation of nearly all of the Netherlands' Jews in urban locations by the end of the nineteenth century. Not surprisingly, the integration into secular society impacted the religiosity of Dutch Jewry. Orthodoxy lost its influence to Liberalism, and the Jewish population gradually declined, due to conversions, intermarriage, and a low birthrate. As a result, the Jewish nationalist movement never got a foothold in the region, and Zionism never achieved the popularity that it did elsewhere in Europe.

The Virtual Jewish History Tour - Netherlands

Spinoza apparently was excommunicated by all the leaders of the Amsterdam communities (source JVL above)

Originally Posted by Djoop

It's not necessarily an exclusion to say that our culture is (historically) based on judeo-christian values.

Granted the US originally brought it in for inclusion but in Holland at the moment the term is used for exclusion. It also as the article I gave showed was not true that the US had a Judeo-Christian culture, it had a Protestant one.

The 'real' Dutch have normalised religion and body.According to Wekker the image of Dutchness is at the very least that of being white and Christian. (Wekker 1975.78) Since the growing cultural discourse in the Netherlands, with concerns regarding Islam and the position regarding migrants from Islamic countries at its core, this image may seem somewhat differentiated. One example is reference to 'Judeo-Christian tradition', within present discourse instead of soley to Christian tradition as opposed to Islamic tradition. The present focus on Islam in the Netherlands may have also somewhat marginalised the exclusionary rhetoric towards other migrant groups such as Surinamese or Chinese. Although the present focus on Islam may seem new, it is based on the long term, albeit shifting, presence of exclusionary rhetoric applied towards migrants of different backgrounds.

My research has shown that in contradiction to the United States, the Dutch notion of National identity has been quite exclusive and thick. This thick notion of identity leads to a process of exclusion and sets up a dichotomous relationship between us – 'the Dutch' and them – 'the others' . The consequence is that people of different backgrounds who are born in the Netherlands or who have lived most of their lives there and hav e Dutch nationality are not included in 'one of us'. Since 9/11 the cutural and religious content of this thick notion of Dutchness has become even more obvious.

-snip-


The impact of this dominant culture in the Netherlands is that even successful immigrants in the society feel uprooted and not part of society. The thick construction of Dutchness also makes almost impossible the existence of hyphenated identities that are linked to multiple positions of cultural difference

Paradoxes of Cultural Recognition: Perspectives from Northern Europe - Sharam Alghasi, Thomas Hylland Eriksen, Halleh Ghorashi - Google Books

Further when I did a search for The Netherlands Judeo-Christian culture, here is what I came up with

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Th...ient=firefox-a


Mr Wilders who is certainly using it to exclude Muslims

Together with Jerusalem and Athens, Rome is the cradle of our Western civilization – the most advanced and superior civilization the world has ever known.
As Westerners, we share the same Judeo-Christian culture. I am from the Netherlands and you are from Italy. Our national cultures are branches of the same tree. We do not belong to multiple cultures, but to different branches of one single culture. This is why when we come to Rome, we all come home in a sense. We belong here, as we also belong in Athens and in Jerusalem.
It is important that we know where our roots are. If we lose them we become deracinated. We become men and women without a culture.

-snip

In 1899, in his book ‘The River War,’ Winston Churchill warned that Islam is threatening Europe in the same way as the Barbarians once threatened Rome. “Mohammedanism,” Churchill wrote – I quote – “is a militant and proselytizing faith. No stronger retrograde force exists in the World. […] The civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” End of quote.

The Failure of Multiculturalism and How to Turn the Tide « Civilus Defendus

This is just Protestant Christian Zionism rhetoric. That is the only place where Jerusalem has a part in the culture of any Western nation. He of course has added the anti Islam approach which my previous quote suggests is not new to the Dutch psyche. According to them you have a history and culture of being white and Christian (Protestant)

Originally Posted by Djoop

As far as the 17th century when they buried a secular jew in a prominent dutch church. I've been in the park this morning and they assured me he's still there. Can you guess why some would find that a positive development in 17th century Europe?

I don't deny that Holland had far less antisemitism than Germany and Eastern Europe and I do not deny that there were Jews who gave to Holland. However the culture of Holland was always Christian Protestantism and Jews only got emancipation when they assimilated into that culture. You use a hyphenated word Judeo-Christian but you did not have a hyphenated culture and according to Sharam Alghasi, Thomas Hylland Eriksen, Halleh Ghorashi you culture still does not allow for immigrants to develop the kind of hyphenated identity that a Judeo-Christian culture suggests.

Originally Posted by Djoop

I understand the part about right wing rhetoric, and I don't feel comfortable how the term can be used in that manner. Aside from that, I prefer 'secular' myself. The last 50 years of our history we have been secular and I like to keep it that way. No part of me wants to return to religious extremists my ancestors must have been.

well we are in agreement there

Originally Posted by mbig

Despite being a well credentialed Atheist here, I consider us a Christian Nation as well.
We were founded by Christians, many of whom read the Bible daily, and were in almost complete majority themselves from a 98% Christian Nation Britain.

Our Constitution has much more to do with the Magna Carta (a monument in the history of Western civilization), than 'Greece' or 'Rome'.
I also suggest the Declaration of independence in which our rights are attributed by the founders to God, The Christian God.

We are considered a Christain nation in character/majority by other non-Christian nations as well.
Does this mean we are all Christians or a theocracy... of course not.

But this is another example where current political correctness/bizarro 'new history'/multi-culti denies the true generalization.
And of course, another anti-American cheap shot from PeteEU above.

You're definitely right about the Magna Carta - which, by the way, isn't really a "Christian" document. I'm not arguing about whether or not we're a Christian nation. As a majority of our citizens are Christian, I don't have a problem with that.

However, to say that the founding and our Constitution and legal system are built upon "Christian values"? Like you and I and others have pointed out, the values enshrined in the Constitution have a hell of a lot more to do with the writings and philosophers of Western tradition than they have to do with the Bible.

Originally Posted by Grim17

I know the left not only hates to hear this,

Lol...

Originally Posted by Grim17

but many simply refuse to accept it, but the fact is we are a nation that was founded by Christians and formed using Christian values. We are not however, a "Christian nation." We are a "freedom of religion" nation, which was one of the cornerstones of our founding.

Formed using Christian values? You need only look at the ten commandments. The only way we followed any of the ten was to outlaw theft and murder. Lying is completely fine unless under oath. Regarding these, every successful nation in history, regardless of religion has had laws outlawing theft and murder. Those aren't Christian values. Yes, most amerians are Christians, and that's all well and good, it doesn't bother me in the least, but that didn't help this country become great nearly as much as it being completely secular did.

Christian Nation? Yes.
Christian State? No.