• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"The War Against Youth"

iliveonramen

iliveonramen

Pontificator
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
12,789
Reaction score
8,566
Location
On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Interesting article on government spending and government priorities based on different generations. It's a good read...some interesting clips from the article:

Print - The War Against Youth - Esquire

David Frum, former George W. Bush speechwriter, had the guts to acknowledge that the Tea Party's combination of expensive entitlement programs and tax cuts is something entirely different from a traditional political program: "This isn't conservatism: It's a going-out-of-business sale for the Baby Boom generation." The economic motive is growing ever more naked, and has nothing to do with any principle that could be articulated by Goldwater or Reagan, or indeed with any principle at all. The political imperative is to preserve the economic cloak of unreality that the Boomers have wrapped themselves in.
Click to expand...

The youth vote still supports Obama, but in a chastened, conditional way. In hindsight, Obama's 2008 campaign looks like an indulgent fantasy in which the major conflicts in life simply don't exist. There may be no white America and no black America, no blue-state America and no red-state America, but one thing is clear: There is a young America and there is an old America, and they don't form a community of interest. One takes from the other. The federal government spends $480 billion on Medicare and $68 billion on education. Prescription drugs: $62 billion. Head Start: $8 billion. Across the board, the money flows not to helping the young grow up, but helping the old die comfortably. According to a 2009 Brookings Institution study, "The United States spends 2.4 times as much on the elderly as on children, measured on a per capita basis, with the ratio rising to 7 to 1 if looking just at the federal budget."
Click to expand...


Cynicism rises to fill the emptied space of exaggerated and failed hope. It's all simple math. If you follow the money rather than the blather, it's clear that the American system is a bipartisan fusion of economic models broken down along generational lines: unaffordable Greek-style socialism for the old, virulently purified capitalism for the young. Both political parties have agreed to this arrangement: The Boomers and older will be taken care of. Everybody younger will be on their own. The German philosopher Hermann Lotze wrote in the 1870s: "One of the most remarkable characteristics of human nature is, alongside so much selfishness in specific instances, the freedom from envy which the present displays toward the future." It is exactly that envy toward the future that is new in our own time.
Click to expand...
 
A war on youth implies an intentional act.

That being said, there was something that Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said in the year 2000 or so that I wonder about to what extent it will be true. He would have some staffers around his office and he would pull one or two aside that had been with the Senator for a couple of years. He would say that they had been around for a while, they are out of college, and they should take some time off and visit Europe for a couple of years. One staffer replied that they couldn't do that, because they had a decent amount of student debt left (something that Moynihan himself did not experience much of thanks to the G.I. Bill and that generation's lower tuition rates). He said in a joking manner, "I fear we are raising a generation of Republicans."
 
Last edited:
Fiddytree said:
A war on youth implies an intentional act.

That being said, there was something that Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said in the year 2000 or so that I wonder about to what extent it will be true. He would have some staffers around his office and he would pull one or two aside that had been with the Senator for a couple of years. He would say that they had been around for a while, they are out of college, and they should take some time off and visit Europe for a couple of years. One staffer replied that they couldn't do that, because they had a decent amount of student debt left (something that Moynihan himself did not experience much of thanks to the G.I. Bill and that generation's lower tuition rates). He said in a joking manner, "I fear we are raising a generation of Republicans."
Click to expand...

It's definational a sensational title to catch the eye but the article itself is not really as extreme as the title.
 
That article was full of BS.

Give me an employed senior who's making a decent living and I'll show you how they actually worked long and hard to get where they are: When these young people have worked and benefited society (if they do) for 30, 40, 50 years they can have the benefits of it, too. That's the way the world works: young life is rough - but you grow, mature and become more capable - you benefit from this positive change.

To suggest that the old are *taking* from the young is utter tripe: they were young, too - no one *took* from them: if they made a decent life for theirself it's because they worked hard to get there.

You have to work to earn retirement - it's not just handed to you on a golded unchained platter.

The more years you put into a company or business - the more you benefit. Naturally: this is how it SHOULD be: this should BE encouragement to the young to keep at it and try harder.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I see this. I'm a law student, and it's pretty much unthinkable that I could work for anyone and actually get paid for it until I graduate. We do a lot of the same work as lawyers, and certainly things that do require our expertise, that someone without our specific education couldn't do nearly as well, but this will be my second summer in a row giving away my skills for free. Young people are seen as disposable resources, rather than the future of the country. All of my friends are facing this same situation. We worked hard, got complex educations, worked the crappy part time jobs as kids (and now you can't get those anymore), and now we're not getting any kind of return on our investments, and basically spending our lives trying to figure out how the hell we're going to get out of all this debt. Why do we have this debt? Because the people whose job it was to know better told us that we had to acquire it, and that we would be justly compensated for it later. Well here we are, and unless the Baby Boomers stop eating up all the resources, they will have left my generation as the first one in recorded history that was worse off than the one before it.

But the choice young Americans face is between a party that claims to represent their interests but fails to and a party that explicitly opposes their interests and actively works to disenfranchise them.
Click to expand...

This is 100% true. The indifference of the Democratic party is preferable to the sheer hatred of the Republicans.
 
iliveonramen said:
Don't you have like three threads on that topic with derailing this one?
Click to expand...

How is it derailing this thread? The topic of this thread is how the government should prioritize its spending. So I asked you if government spending should reflect out priorities as a nation. You agreed that it should...and so do I. The question is...why do we disagree on the solution?

From my perspective...it seems painfully obvious that if you want to know people's priorities...then simply allow them to put their own money where their mouths/hearts/votes are. Do you agree or disagree that this is the only way to accurately reveal people's true priorities?
 
Paschendale said:
Yeah, I see this. I'm a law student, and it's pretty much unthinkable that I could work for anyone and actually get paid for it until I graduate. We do a lot of the same work as lawyers, and certainly things that do require our expertise, that someone without our specific education couldn't do nearly as well, but this will be my second summer in a row giving away my skills for free. Young people are seen as disposable resources, rather than the future of the country. All of my friends are facing this same situation. We worked hard, got complex educations, worked the crappy part time jobs as kids (and now you can't get those anymore), and now we're not getting any kind of return on our investments, and basically spending our lives trying to figure out how the hell we're going to get out of all this debt. Why do we have this debt? Because the people whose job it was to know better told us that we had to acquire it, and that we would be justly compensated for it later. Well here we are, and unless the Baby Boomers stop eating up all the resources, they will have left my generation as the first one in recorded history that was worse off than the one before it.



This is 100% true. The indifference of the Democratic party is preferable to the sheer hatred of the Republicans.
Click to expand...

In this country the youth have never been anything other than lower-paid employees . . . when have things ever not been the case? Work hard - apply yourself - and become something more.

These older peopel that you think are 'eating up all the resources' are your parents and grandparents . . . go tell them, then, that they should support you more and more on top of what they are already doing - and tell them that they don't deserve any support from our nation or government - and tell me what they think.

Appparently all these youthful people don't realize that in the future they will be OLD TOO - and do you intend on just eating up our resources? Do you want to be seen as just a useless leach?

Look at these youths: It's not like anyone's talking about balancing things out - they just are accussing the older people of taking from them and wanting to demand that they get it, instead. Nevermind equality, here - they just want it reversed.

Want to be worth your weight in gold?
Prove you are first.
 
If you want a real war against youth, look at Greece. Mom and Dad retired at 50 - 55 with all kinds of generous benefits from working in the public sector and unions and ultimately bankrupted the country. Greek youth will certainly not be as lucky. They are going to have to work harder and longer even if they can find employment, and even then a more substantial amount of their earnings will have to go to support the previous generations.

Relatively to Greece and even most of an aging Europe, American youth are lucky.
 
Meathead said:
If you want a real war against youth, look at Greece. Mom and Dad retired at 50 - 55 with all kinds of generous benefits from working in the public sector and unions and ultimately bankrupted the country. Greek youth will certainly not be as lucky. They are going to have to work harder and longer even if they can find employment, and even then a more substantial amount of their earnings will have to go to support the previous generations.

Relatively to Greece and even most of an aging Europe, American youth are lucky.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with working for a living - I'm 31 and haven't put a penny into retirement because I've focused on being a mother for many years.

So everyone who's complaining need to look at the bigger picture.

If I didn't have my first child when I was 17 I'd be some hot business **** right now - and I will be, but just a bit later on.
 
"dismiss whatever insults your own soul; and your very flesh shall be a great poem" - Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

Leaves of Grass always reminds me of the rooftop scene in Bladerunner.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
In this country the youth have never been anything other than lower-paid employees . . . when have things ever not been the case? Work hard - apply yourself - and become something more.

These older peopel that you think are 'eating up all the resources' are your parents and grandparents . . . go tell them, then, that they should support you more and more on top of what they are already doing - and tell them that they don't deserve any support from our nation or government - and tell me what they think.

Appparently all these youthful people don't realize that in the future they will be OLD TOO - and do you intend on just eating up our resources? Do you want to be seen as just a useless leach?

Look at these youths: It's not like anyone's talking about balancing things out - they just are accussing the older people of taking from them and wanting to demand that they get it, instead. Nevermind equality, here - they just want it reversed.

Want to be worth your weight in gold?
Prove you are first.
Click to expand...

You realize that what you're doing is defending the position of paying someone less for doing the same job. All the young people you're spitting on here, work just as hard as you do, doing the same jobs as you, and getting paid less or, in many cases, nothing. We're basically told that unless we voluntarily give away our work for free for several years, we'll never get hired for anything at all. We pay the same taxes, and ~45% of all those taxes go to social security and medicare. Another 20% goes into the military, so it's our money and primarily our lives being spent on securing oil fields in the Middle East. Meanwhile, the notion that people shouldn't be entering the workforce with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is met with scorn and derision.

So tell me, if you're such a perfect example of what youth in this county should be doing, tell me, what should we do? There's no jobs for us. We're insanely deep in debt. We're told that we won't be hired unless we work for free for a few years first. What should we be doing differently? Go ahead an enlighten me as to what we, the young professionals of America, can do that we aren't already doing.
 
In this country the youth have never been anything other than lower-paid employees . . . when have things ever not been the case? Work hard - apply yourself - and become something more.
Click to expand...
Actually the article points out that compared to historically they are lower-paid than they've ever been while also having steeper requirements. Nobody is saying that someone that works 50 years shouldn't make more than someone that is entering the job market. The article never makes that claim.

These older peopel that you think are 'eating up all the resources' are your parents and grandparents . . . go tell them, then, that they should support you more and more on top of what they are already doing - and tell them that they don't deserve any support from our nation or government - and tell me what they think.
Click to expand...
At the end of the day...younger generations are handed trilions in unfunded future liabilities...trillions in debt....as well as higher costs for education to compete in the market place. The proof is in the pudding.

Look at these youths: It's not like anyone's talking about balancing things out - they just are accussing the older people of taking from them and wanting to demand that they get it, instead. Nevermind equality, here - they just want it reversed.
Click to expand...
That's actually not what they are asking for. They are asking for the same thing our parents and grandparents took for granted.
 
Paschendale said:
So tell me, if you're such a perfect example of what youth in this county should be doing, tell me, what should we do? There's no jobs for us. We're insanely deep in debt. We're told that we won't be hired unless we work for free for a few years first. What should we be doing differently? Go ahead an enlighten me as to what we, the young professionals of America, can do that we aren't already doing.
Click to expand...

How about promoting universal suffrage?
 
Paschendale said:
You realize that what you're doing is defending the position of paying someone less for doing the same job. All the young people you're spitting on here, work just as hard as you do, doing the same jobs as you, and getting paid less or, in many cases, nothing. We're basically told that unless we voluntarily give away our work for free for several years, we'll never get hired for anything at all. We pay the same taxes, and ~45% of all those taxes go to social security and medicare. Another 20% goes into the military, so it's our money and primarily our lives being spent on securing oil fields in the Middle East. Meanwhile, the notion that people shouldn't be entering the workforce with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is met with scorn and derision.

So tell me, if you're such a perfect example of what youth in this county should be doing, tell me, what should we do? There's no jobs for us. We're insanely deep in debt. We're told that we won't be hired unless we work for free for a few years first. What should we be doing differently? Go ahead an enlighten me as to what we, the young professionals of America, can do that we aren't already doing.
Click to expand...

Haven't unpaid internships for law students been a practice for a long time?
 
I wouldn't say the main idea here is a war on the youth. There certainly seems to be a lot of policies which aren't favorable to young people, but that's a small part of a bigger, more disturbing trend. It's a trend which involves ignoring the future. It's perfectly summarized by the points in the OP. Money given to the elderly, while important, doesn't do much for the country. There is little return on investment. Education benefits everyone for decades to come.

Need more examples? Look at infrastructure. What better situation do you need? Interest rates are basically nonexistent. You have tons of out of work construction workers. Infrastructure is aging. What reason is there to not invest in such a crucial part of our economy other than a preoccupation with our money? What is it being spent on? Foreign wars which provide no long term (or short term) benefit to our economy.

Why are we spending such a large portion of our budget on money which does not come back to benefit us in the long term? Is it just that we've become accustomed to being the world leader in just about everything? Is it that we think we don't need to keep working to maintain this in the future? Whatever the reason, we need to start caring about what happens in the decades to come.
 
NAKED N00B said:
Why are we spending such a large portion of our budget on money which does not come back to benefit us in the long term? Is it just that we've become accustomed to being the world leader in just about everything? Is it that we think we don't need to keep working to maintain this in the future? Whatever the reason, we need to start caring about what happens in the decades to come.
Click to expand...

So do you support universal suffrage?
 
there wouldnt be a war against the youth if they would just stay off old peoples lawns!!!!!!!!!!
 
Paschendale said:
Yeah, I see this. I'm a law student, and it's pretty much unthinkable that I could work for anyone and actually get paid for it until I graduate. We do a lot of the same work as lawyers, and certainly things that do require our expertise, that someone without our specific education couldn't do nearly as well, but this will be my second summer in a row giving away my skills for free. Young people are seen as disposable resources, rather than the future of the country. All of my friends are facing this same situation. We worked hard, got complex educations, worked the crappy part time jobs as kids (and now you can't get those anymore), and now we're not getting any kind of return on our investments, and basically spending our lives trying to figure out how the hell we're going to get out of all this debt. Why do we have this debt? Because the people whose job it was to know better told us that we had to acquire it, and that we would be justly compensated for it later. Well here we are, and unless the Baby Boomers stop eating up all the resources, they will have left my generation as the first one in recorded history that was worse off than the one before it.



This is 100% true. The indifference of the Democratic party is preferable to the sheer hatred of the Republicans.
Click to expand...
Interns in Computer Science get $35 an hour. Maybe it's the priorities of things considered immediately productive. The long-termers are called on to sacrifice their personal lives and personalities, which will make them spiritually empty greedheads when they finally get a chance to make up for a lost youth. It is like living on bread and water for four or more years so you can eat free at gourmet restaurants when you finish your indentured servitude. But that won't be enjoyable because of the stomach ailments caused by the diet you submitted to in order to get to the feast.

And never forget class priorities. The children of the rich get a psychologically satisfying amount of allowance plus tuition paid by their parents, so college is completely different from the depressing struggle their parents impose on other Americans. It is a crippling situation; all the upper class will reward you with is a Golden Wheelchair.
 
this ageist argument would be a non-starter if rungs hadn't been removed from the ladder. older people worked very hard to climb that ladder. somebody else removed the rungs.

claiming that older people collecting from programs that they paid into for their whole life is a contributor to the poverty of young people is like blaming jobless people collecting unemployment for the high unemployment rate.
 
Paschendale said:
You realize that what you're doing is defending the position of paying someone less for doing the same job. All the young people you're spitting on here, work just as hard as you do, doing the same jobs as you, and getting paid less or, in many cases, nothing. We're basically told that unless we voluntarily give away our work for free for several years, we'll never get hired for anything at all. We pay the same taxes, and ~45% of all those taxes go to social security and medicare. Another 20% goes into the military, so it's our money and primarily our lives being spent on securing oil fields in the Middle East. Meanwhile, the notion that people shouldn't be entering the workforce with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is met with scorn and derision.

So tell me, if you're such a perfect example of what youth in this county should be doing, tell me, what should we do? There's no jobs for us. We're insanely deep in debt. We're told that we won't be hired unless we work for free for a few years first. What should we be doing differently? Go ahead an enlighten me as to what we, the young professionals of America, can do that we aren't already doing.
Click to expand...

Someone with less experience and skill. (To the bolded text)

What should you do? Earn your bones. Nobody owes you the pay of someone who's been there years longer than you. They earned it, you can be sure. Lower your expectations and take part time with an employer you really want to work for, then wow them with your hard work and skill. That's what I've done, more than once. Was it economically hard? You bet, but it was darn well worth it. Most companies want to promote within. It's a pain to go outside and deal with the unknown. So get your foot in the door and show them why you should be in the room.

If you are going to say, there are no jobs to do that with, it's not the first time in the history of this country or in my working history that jobs have been scarce. Work at what you can until you can work at what you want.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom