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Noam Chomsky On Socialism

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Noam Chomsky responds to a caller's request for his thoughts on socialism, during a 2003 interview by Brian Lamb, for C-SPAN's "In Depth" program. He describes how socialism was equated with the Leninist model of the Soviet Union by both the USA and its allies on the one hand, and the USSR and its allies on the other.





I think this has been posted just in forums to try to explain people what socialism is but it has never been posted as a topic. What are your thoughts on this answer to someones question? I think Chomsky sums it up pretty damn well. Such a genius mind and a great lecturer. Really hits the head on the nail when he says claims that the 2 main propaganda forces who defined socialism were the USSR and the USA both for their own special interests to control the people and make them fearful of eachother.

Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?
 
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Disagree with Chomsky on several fundamental issues, but he's always a gentleman and one of the more well-spoken individuals I can think of. Interesting watch if not soley for the different perspective.
 
Brilliant, and I agree that he's a damn genius. Too bad his style is far too hyperbolic when it comes to foriegn policy (treating Iraq the same as Vietnam), and this turns away many of his would-be allies in economic matters.

I was especially struck by his comment that giving workers control over their own production and own lives is a perfectly natural and necessary extension of democratic principles. Also striking was his characterization of modern society as a society of "industrial feudalism".

The "socialism" strawman has done great damage, and I suspect we'll need a new word for bottom-up control of production.
 
I agree Chomsky is a great thinker and a brilliant man. I agree with most of his basic ideas. That being said, he is idealistic, and he fails to apply human nature into is ideas, and understand that they are not workable in the real world. The world as I would like to see it, and the world as it really exists, taking into account basic human urges and psyches, are incompatible.

I could take a select number of individuals whom I trust and love, and place them here on my property to live, build them each a house, and give them all access to the community garden, and it could likely be a very workable situation. Apply those ideas to the world at large, take into account that most people don't fit into the mold that is required for a peaceful co-existence, and it's easy to see what the result would be long-term.
 
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I agree Chomsky is a great thinker and a brilliant man. I agree with most of his basic ideas. That being said, he is idealistic, and he fails to apply human nature into is ideas, and understand that they are not workable in the real world. The world as I would like to see it, and the world as it really exists, taking into account basic human urges and psyches, are incompatible.
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
 
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".

I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers. Socialism posits, and in fact requires, that we can rise above being afraid of one another, and work together. Libertarians often seem to take the position that this default position of selfishness is a given, without realizing what kind of a miserable world we would live in if it were true. They fight endlessly for the notion that helping others must be voluntary, without understanding that the right they are fighting for is the right to not help others.

Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.

Noam sums it up pretty well. He talks about business feudalism, which is exactly how it works. A wealthy owner now is just like a duke or an earl was in the dark ages. And the rest of us are consigned to a state of serfdom, toiling our lives away, receiving a tiny portion of the benefits of our labor. Breaking away from monarchy and aristocracy took government away from that system, but in the last two centuries, we replaced it with business instead. Socialism is nothing more than applying the democratic principals that made the United States stand out in the world to the sphere of business. Our collective production should benefit us all, not just the parasites (to take a term from TD and apply it in a way that's accurate) whose only contribution is to sign their names to dotted lines and trade pieces of the pie back and forth.

A representative government, by, for, and of the people took power from the few and entrusted it in the hands of the many, to work for the benefit of all. Representative business should do the same. Anyone can see the astounding ways that wealth is used to circumvent the democratic process. Rich companies and the wealthy elite who own them hire legions of lobbyists and lawyers, and control who does or does not get elected. Their wealth buys up the democratic process. By not taking the reins of business from the few and gearing it towards the benefit of all, we are giving up the very core of American ideals and allowing ourselves to slip back into feudalism. The extension of social Darwinism that is used to justify this massive disparity, that some people are just naturally more apt to succeed and everyone else is a failure... that sounds a lot like the invocation of divine right to me.
 
Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers.

Capitalism, and ergo western Libertarianism, is built on the fundamental principle of self-organization. Groups of people naturally arrange themselves in efficient systems through individual actions based on rational decision-making in a finite reality. People organize themselves as a group organically, evolving almost as one organism, adapting to new situations remarkably quickly. Hope that's not getting too esoteric.
 
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".

I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers.

StrawManRoads.jpg


Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.

Silly. Of course we are selfish. All living things are selfish, fear pain, loneliness and death, and not having needs met. We socialize (no pun intended) with each other because it meets our needs. We love because it promotes our individual survival and the survival of our race. There's nothing inherently bad about being "selfish." It's natural, a fundamental feature of being alive. These are the most basic instinctual drives of living things. Your dichotomy is false. We are both selfish and social. Both loving and fearful.

Libertarianism just seeks to maximize human liberty, which is only accomplished by establishing boundaries between one person's liberty and another's (i.e. one person cannot be free to restrict another person's freedom for his own benefit). So this obviously requires a rule of law and the enforcement and protection of these boundaries.
 
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So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".

Yes I do advocate libertarianism, as it is a philosophy which places value on the individual, rather than the collective.
 
I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers. Socialism posits, and in fact requires, that we can rise above being afraid of one another, and work together.

Libertarianism is built on the idea that all people are inherently competitive, as is reality in nature, as we are a part of the natural world. This has nothing to do with goodness and badness, but with nature. Socialism posits that nature can be disregarded and that resources can be consumed excessively, without long term detrimental effects, which is certainly not the case.

Libertarians often seem to take the position that this default position of selfishness is a given, without realizing what kind of a miserable world we would live in if it were true. They fight endlessly for the notion that helping others must be voluntary, without understanding that the right they are fighting for is the right to not help others.

Helping others must be voluntary, otherwise it’s not altruistic in nature, but coerced by an authority figure in power.

Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.

Humans are very much a part of the natural world, thus the instinct to preserve self is paramount. If that is missing in your psychological make-up, it’s merely that you are denying your own nature.

I
The extension of social Darwinism that is used to justify this massive disparity, that some people are just naturally more apt to succeed and everyone else is a failure... that sounds a lot like the invocation of divine right to me.

No, it sounds quite like nature itself. There is no *divine* right to survive. There is the ability to survive by various means, one of which is by taking from others. This works in the short-term, until you kill off your host.
 
I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers. Socialism posits, and in fact requires, that we can rise above being afraid of one another, and work together. Libertarians often seem to take the position that this default position of selfishness is a given, without realizing what kind of a miserable world we would live in if it were true. They fight endlessly for the notion that helping others must be voluntary, without understanding that the right they are fighting for is the right to not help others.

Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.

Noam sums it up pretty well. He talks about business feudalism, which is exactly how it works. A wealthy owner now is just like a duke or an earl was in the dark ages. And the rest of us are consigned to a state of serfdom, toiling our lives away, receiving a tiny portion of the benefits of our labor. Breaking away from monarchy and aristocracy took government away from that system, but in the last two centuries, we replaced it with business instead. Socialism is nothing more than applying the democratic principals that made the United States stand out in the world to the sphere of business. Our collective production should benefit us all, not just the parasites (to take a term from TD and apply it in a way that's accurate) whose only contribution is to sign their names to dotted lines and trade pieces of the pie back and forth.

A representative government, by, for, and of the people took power from the few and entrusted it in the hands of the many, to work for the benefit of all. Representative business should do the same. Anyone can see the astounding ways that wealth is used to circumvent the democratic process. Rich companies and the wealthy elite who own them hire legions of lobbyists and lawyers, and control who does or does not get elected. Their wealth buys up the democratic process. By not taking the reins of business from the few and gearing it towards the benefit of all, we are giving up the very core of American ideals and allowing ourselves to slip back into feudalism. The extension of social Darwinism that is used to justify this massive disparity, that some people are just naturally more apt to succeed and everyone else is a failure... that sounds a lot like the invocation of divine right to me.

actually you have it backwards. Libertarians basically give people the benefit of the doubt while socialists and many of the other leftwing statist agendas believe people cannot do the right thing and thus government is needed to force them to.
 
Here are your options...

A. Disregard the rules of economics and suffer the consequences

This means that I can tell you what is or isn't the best use of your limited time/money. How can I possibly know what is the "best" use of your limited time/money? Do I know your ideas, interests, values, desires, wants, needs, priorities, concerns, fears, hopes, dreams, goals, experiences, preferences, and partial knowledge? How could anybody possibly know all that better than you do? So if I choose how you use your limited time/money...then there would be a disparity between the choices that you would have made for yourself and the choices that I will make for you. Is this disparity a good thing? Let's find out!

  1. Read every single one of my blog entries...pragmatarianism...within the next week.
  2. Spend your own money printing out fliers/posters promoting the Magna Carta Movement and then disseminate them around all your local colleges and universities.
  3. Create viral youtube videos to help promote the Magna Carta Movement

B. Recognize that perspectives matter and reap the rewards

You choose how you use your limited time/money and I choose how I use my limited time/money. Resources will be put to their "best" possible use and our country as a whole will greatly benefit.

If you appreciate being able to choose how you use your own limited time/money then why not consider doing the following?

  1. Consider reading every single one of my blog entries...pragmatarianism...within the next week.
  2. Consider spending your own money printing out fliers/posters promoting the Magna Carta Movement and then consider disseminating them around all your local colleges and universities.
  3. Consider creating viral youtube videos to help promote the Magna Carta Movement
 
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
Libertarianism is simply the philosophy that it is wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property. OMG leaving one's fellow man in peace! Oh, the horror!
 
Libertarianism is simply the philosophy that it is wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property. OMG leaving one's fellow man in peace! Oh, the horror!

But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view? You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.

So rather than making moral arguments that you can't "win", just make the effort to learn the economic arguments. Don't say it's "wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property"....instead point out why it's economically advantageous to allow people to determine the best uses of their limited time/money. If you can't explain it...then don't complain when people fail to see the advantages of freedom. If they can't see the advantages of freedom then it's because you're not showing it to them.
 
But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view? You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.

The thing about bees, is that yes, their only impulse is the survival of the hive. What most people don't know, though, is that bees kill off any bee which doesn't contribute to the survival of the hive. If a bee isn't pulling its share of the load, he is killed within the hive, or dragged out and not allowed to re-enter.
 
The thing about bees, is that yes, their only impulse is the survival of the hive. What most people don't know, though, is that bees kill off any bee which doesn't contribute to the survival of the hive. If a bee isn't pulling its share of the load, he is killed within the hive, or dragged out and not allowed to re-enter.

So there's no such thing as bee welfare then.... wow.
 
So there's no such thing as bee welfare then.... wow.

No, there certainly isn't. :lol:

At the end of the season, if there are still too many drones, and the queen is still productive, the drones are cast out into the cold.
 
But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view?
It is an ethical axiom. It can’t be proven, nor can it be proven to be better or worse than other ethical axioms. One either agrees that it is wrong to initiate force against others, or one does not.

You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.
Yes, some people think it’s immoral to initiate force against others, while some people think this is ok. It’s simply a matter of having different sets of fundamental moral principles.

So rather than making moral arguments that you can't "win", just make the effort to learn the economic arguments. Don't say it's "wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property"....instead point out why it's economically advantageous to allow people to determine the best uses of their limited time/money. If you can't explain it...then don't complain when people fail to see the advantages of freedom. If they can't see the advantages of freedom then it's because you're not showing it to them.
I am not a consequentialist. I don’t argue that any particular morality isn’t “true” based on its economic effects. If something is ethically wrong, it’s wrong. Arguing that any particular morality could lead to a slippery utilitarian slope. Why not kill the elderly or disabled? It would certainly be economically cheaper than keeping them alive.
 
I am not a consequentialist. I don’t argue that any particular morality isn’t “true” based on its economic effects. If something is ethically wrong, it’s wrong. Arguing that any particular morality could lead to a slippery utilitarian slope. Why not kill the elderly or disabled? It would certainly be economically cheaper than keeping them alive.
So you agree that the government should take as much of your money as is necessary to keep the elderly or disabled alive for as long as possible?
 
So you agree that the government should take as much of your money as is necessary to keep the elderly or disabled alive for as long as possible?
Holy crap that's quite a leap. I say that it is wrong to kill the elderly and disabled, so you infer that I think that people should take other's money to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible??!!

To answer your question, no, I don't think that money should be forcibly taken from people in order to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible. Forcibly taking the property of others is wrong, and I will never advocate doing so.
 
Holy crap that's quite a leap. I say that it is wrong to kill the elderly and disabled, so you infer that I think that people should take other's money to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible??!!

To answer your question, no, I don't think that money should be forcibly taken from people in order to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible. Forcibly taking the property of others is wrong, and I will never advocate doing so.
Well...you're the one that started leaping so I thought we were playing leap frog. You should join the Ron Paul Forums so you can read this thread...Where do Ron Paul's Ideas Come From. Where I linked you to is the start of a good discussion on the opportunity cost concept...it should help you better understand consequentialist arguments for liberty. Plus...you'll fit right in there. There's a ton of anarcho-capitalists. Maybe you can encourage some of them to participate here as well. The more the merrier.
 
Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?

Nothing to add, the man is brilliant, plain and simple.

Unfortunately, the "socialist straw-man" was so successful that most people are now so anti-socialist that they fail to spot that capitalism has turned into socialism. It's not easy to separate the grain from the straw in this "socialist" scam.

:)
 
Well...you're the one that started leaping so I thought we were playing leap frog.
How did I start leaping? I was simply stating why I disagree with utilitarian arguments. Killing the elderly might very well be the economically sensible thing to do, but to most people, the utilitarian argument is completely outweighed by the deontological argument that murder is wrong. It wasn't a leap. Merely an example.
 
How did I start leaping? I was simply stating why I disagree with utilitarian arguments. Killing the elderly might very well be the economically sensible thing to do, but to most people, the utilitarian argument is completely outweighed by the deontological argument that murder is wrong. It wasn't a leap. Merely an example.
That's not a leap? It's less than a half step away from saying...well...it might be the economically sensible thing for me to stop eating. I could sure save a few bucks that way.

You're not disagreeing with consequentialist arguments...you're disagreeing with straw man slippery slope argument that you created.

I can play that game too. watch watch. Let me create this absurd argument to defeat you. So...I disagree with deontological arguments because "natural rights" libertarians could care less if the consequences of their principles resulted in millions and millions of children starving to death.

If you actually want to defeat consequentialist arguments...then it would really help if you actually understood consequentialist economic concepts like opportunity cost and partial knowledge.
 
But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view? You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.

...

If they can't see the advantages of freedom then it's because you're not showing it to them.

Then allow me.


Libertarians say, as adult citizens are concerned, it's okay to neglect if it prevents abuse. Non-libertarian types say it's okay to abuse if that prevents neglect.


The reason I agree with libertarians is that we're talking about adults here. Adults can be neglected (they're their own guardians, their success or failure is up to them), but no adult deserves to be abused, and the law should protect them from abuse (but not neglect). Why?


Because adults are not children. Adults are not dependents (except in rare cases of disability where there is adjudicated disability and assignment of a guardian). Adults do not need a guardian to provide all their basic needs. They're big boys and girls now.


Children/minors/dependents require legal protection from both abuse AND neglect because the law recognizes they cannot be expected to meet their own basic needs, and someone MUST do it for them. We don't even allow minors/dependents to enter into contract legally, so it's legally impossible to expect them to meet their own needs. Hence the law protects minors/dependents from abuse AND neglect. Once they turn 18 and become their own guardians, the law protects them only from abuse.
 
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