• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Between Darkness and Light

Wake

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
18,536
Reaction score
2,438
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I was never sure how long it'd take to change my mind, or if it would ever actually happen. To be honest, it never trult harmed me, my loved ones, or anyone else that comes to mind. Time changes things, and the beliefs of people are no exception. Perhaps it was the repeated assault of facts that eventually found their target, or the lack thereof from others. My armor, per se, while almost impervious to discord, isn't so regarding facts and logic—that's a good thing. Before we move closer to the heart of the issue, we need to visit the past.

My parents never liked it. I never liked it, and I still don't. Then again, that was never a good enough reason to prevent it. Perhaps the screams of "slippery slope" held water, or perhaps those slippery slopes would in fact lead to new and disturbing things. Even then, that wasn't a good enough reason to stop it. It can't be stopped. It's far too popular. It's "in." It's only a matter of time. An aspect f this thing has existed with us for thousands of years; that aspect, now become the thing I speak of, will eventually be available to all. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. It disgusts me me but, then again, disgust is no real reason to stop it. Our souls, what's left of us, know it is wrong, thus we do not partake in it ourselves. That cannot be a good enough reason to bind the actions of everyone else in the land of the free.

Speaking of free—freedom—I am sure I wouldn't like it if some corrupt entity tried to keep me from doing anything that I wanted that didn't harm others in the slightest. Say I were a woman. I wouldn't like it much if my hands were essentially bound and I had to wear a burka, and that it was illegal of me to wear any clothes I wanted—even though absolutely no one was being harmed—I'd be absolutely livid.

So, even though I don't like this thing, in my own way, I try to get inside their heads and understand what people feel. Through trying, I've felt feelings of anger, indignation, shame, and utter rage. It... can be felt, if you cared enough to insert your mind as close to that experience as comfortably possible. The rage. How dare you ******* tell me how to live. Who the **** do you think you are to not even know me yet, like a ******* adult scolding a child, force me to conform to your standards? I am NOT you, so where do you get off trying to ******* control me? No, you're losing power. I am the captain of my soul, the master of my fate. Should I awake in hell, only I am responsible for my actions.

Perhaps after 4 paragraphs you should know what this thing is. Some of you have probably figured it out, and can predict where this is heading. It's been an issue I've grappled with for quite some time. My convictions pull me one way, yet the part of me that is American—the part that loves sweet freedom and responsibility—pulls me the other. Despit me various methods and tactics, introspection and pondering, just a lot of thought and desperate grappling with both parts.....the latter part has won. Then again, "won" is pretty ambiguous. It's more that I will [hopefully] always have my convictions, but when it comes to every single soul in America it just can't be about me. They are not me. I am not their keeper, binding them with my morality. So, with that said, we'll find this thing while walking out of the obscurity of the dark.....into the blinding light.











I no longer oppose gay marriage.











Gay marriage does not destroy the nuclear family—homosexuals being lower-quality parents is a myth.


Government has no business in preventing certain people from marrying.


Not one person is harmed from gay marriage.


In no way does it affect you.


America is no theocracy.


You wouldn't like it if traditional Muslims, under Sharia Law, forced you to live under their moral standards.


It truly is bigoted—and possibly hateful—to prevent people from living as they wish to live. This is especially true when no one is harmed.


Not everyone is Christian.


Marriage, iirc, is not strictly for Christians.


Gay marriage is inevitable—you will not stop it.


Assuming the Bible—KJV—is true, people will be responsible for their own actions or lack thereof in the end.


Christians do not have sole dominance on the definition and meaning of marriage. Just as the constitution is affected, time changes things—that is not necessarily good or bad.


It's their life and they'll do what they want. Why can't they be happy?






That second part out of the way, let's end this.






When I think about gay marriage, I see that it doesn't destroy the nuclear family. IF you have valuable evidence that points in the other direction, that'd be great. Do you agree with me that because someone is homosexual, that does not automatically make them a bad parent? Then again, perhaps we overlook the influences one loving mother and one loving father provide. IF there were any interesting studies about the nuclear family regarding this issue, now is the time to do so. It's my personal opinion that children should have one loving mother and one loving father; deal with it.

Government has absolutely no business in our bedrooms. One religion should not have a death-grip on a huge aspect of all of America—marriage. If they want to get married, let them. Should I scar my soul and anger my God for my change in my belief, that will remain my responsibility. It needs to be repeated—gay marriage harms absolutely no one. Again, evidence to the contrary would be appreciated.

Does gay marriage really affect you negatively? Tbh, it doesn't affect me. Though, regarding my religion, I wonder what kind of twisted and reprobate world my little ones will live through. Perhaps there is more to this than I thought. Maybe there are valid negative aspects of gay marriage we've closed off from our minds. Who really knows? Evidence always helps.

America is no theocracy. We cannot allow a group of religious people to control everyone. It is neither fair nor right. No, it is wrong and bigoted. It must be stopped. IF we have made a mistake in legalizing gay marriage, I pray we see it before it is too late. When it comes to all in America, it can't just be about me and restricting people according to my beliefs. You would probably hate living under the unfairness of Sharia Law, or any other moral declaration infused within the law that binds you—places you in a cage, while you're also shamed.

As for bigotry, it's not bigoted in the slightest to have an opinion not in favor of homosexuality or gay marriage. To me those people who say it is are ******* crazy, imho, as well as wrong. However, I think it's reasonable to say it's bigoted and potentially hateful to restrict the harmless actions of others to appease your own moral sensibilities. Not every person is Christian, so why should everyone live under those Christian morals? Again, you wouldn't appreciate it, either.

Atheists marry. Idiots marry. Pagans marry. Christians marry. Everyone marries. Why not homosexuals? Moving along, it's inevitable. You literally will not stop it. As said earlier, it the traditional Bible is correct, and we're all just ******* oblivious, well, we're screwed. As for definition and meaning, I don't think Christians have the only claim—contrary evidence would be awesome. Lastly, as much as I think it's sinful, why can't they be happy and do what they wish while in this worldly world?
 
Welcome to the world of fiscal conservatism. What I expect from my government is as little as necessary, and to be careful with my tax dollars. Social issues, government should not interfere unless your actions harm others.
 
Welcome to the world of fiscal conservatism. What I expect from my government is as little as necessary, and to be careful with my tax dollars. Social issues, government should not interfere unless your actions harm others.

I'm still socially-conservative regarding opinion. I don't support gay marriage, but I don't fight against it, either.

If a good case could be provided from social conservative why I'm wrong that'd be interesting.
 
Gratz, Wake!!
 
I'm taking credit for at least 30% of your conversion on this....just so you know.
 
I'm taking credit for at least 30% of your conversion on this....just so you know.

You did help quite a bit, LOL. ;) CriticalThought [being respectful and thorough] also helped.
 
What do you think of the gay marriage issue?

I hold that anyone and any number of adults should be allowed to enter into a marriage and that the State's only responsibility in the matter should be to craft laws that apply to State issues...such as division of property in case of a divorce, inheritance in the case of a partner's death and welfare of children.
 
I hold that anyone and any number of adults should be allowed to enter into a marriage and that the State's only responsibility in the matter should be to craft laws that apply to State issues...such as division of property in case of a divorce, inheritance in the case of a partner's death and welfare of children.

Ok, cool.

Just makes one wonder if we're purposely over-looking negatives aspects of gay marriage, though I no longer oppose it.

[It'd be great to see a socially-conservative rebuttal poke holes in the OP.]
 
If you asked me whether I was for or against SSM, I'd say against, but that's just because I feel religiously obligated to disapprove of it.

But I really never cared all that much and care even less in recent years. As far as issues I look at before voting for someone, it doesn't make the top ten. In fact, I wouldn't even bother to ask what the candidate's position was unless they announced it, because there are so many other things I DO care about that are vastly more important.

I've looked at the stats for states that DO have legal SSM, and the number of couples who take advantage of legal SSM is tiny in comparison to the population.... hell it is tiny even compared to the presumed-gay percentage of the population. Apparently the number of people who want to make a huge issue out of SSM is several gazillion times larger than the number of people who actually want to DO it.

I'd almost just as soon legalize it so we can put it to bed, stop wasting time and focus on things that are actually important. Things that are actually going to affect more than 1 person in a thousand.
 
I find this so phoney an issue that it makes me apathetic to every argument about it. 30 years ago it was marriaged doesn't matter, Who needs a piece of paper to show two people love each other for the rest of their lives?

Now marriage is a social right? Not buying the bull crap political ploy of generating class warfare. Vernacular tribalism is gone far enough. It is time the silent majority civilly set the record straight. Pardon the pun.

And Wake, dawn and dusk are the same physical event horizon between night and day not two separate halves. Your metaphors are outdated. It is like the tropics separating opposing seasons existing on the same day just right angles to each other.

Now think about the arbitrary am and pm halves. Noon to mid-night doesn't move but the planet spins by. And that vertical plane is a right angle to dawn and dusk where east is east and west is west forever together and never separting as the planet spins through.

Light and dark aren't so mysterious. Instincts glow while intelligence shines what it learned after birth educated to believe that sole is the soul of society's child.
If Satan/evil is the trickster of words, then humanity's rule of law is the devils handbook in any context character matters and genders aren't worth a dime outside a vote in favor of popular opinions becoming law of the land.
 
Last edited:
Opinion respected!
Possibly the only "Like" I will ever give to you Wake :)
 
Welcome to the world of fiscal conservatism. What I expect from my government is as little as necessary, and to be careful with my tax dollars. Social issues, government should not interfere unless your actions harm others.

I call that Libertarianism. Unless, of course, you can find a "fiscal conservative" running for office...anywhere, calling themself that, and actually BEING that...
 
The only tricky issue with same sex marriage is for military members, in my opinion...and I am MORE than confident they can figure something out.
 
Wake,
In life, one must always control their emotions because reason always reigns supreme. While public policy should never be based solely on reason and logic, because so few are able to jump out of themselves long enough to think about things objectively (probably less than 5% of the population when you get down to it), such a system would never work in practicality (societal/cultural legends and themes will always have a strong hold on the majority), however for those few that can, they are often the best of people.

Congrats. I wish more people could examine themselves in such a critical manner.
 
Last edited:
I call that Libertarianism. Unless, of course, you can find a "fiscal conservative" running for office...anywhere, calling themself that, and actually BEING that...
I know you are right. In this political climate, a person has to be in a tent big enough to win, and still provide some shade
for how they believe. The real issue with the current parties,
is that the press gives voice to their most extreme fringe elements.
I believe we need some Government controls, but at a much higher level than the individual.
It's is one of the main reasons I favor a final point of sale sales tax to replace all withholding taxes.
That way, what an individual earned would not be of concern to the government.
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the world of fiscal conservatism. What I expect from my government is as little as necessary, and to be careful with my tax dollars. Social issues, government should not interfere unless your actions harm others.

Well we are being told by conservatives that gay marriage destroy's, therefore interfere's with, traditional marriage.
 
If you asked me whether I was for or against SSM, I'd say against, but that's just because I feel religiously obligated to disapprove of it. But I really never cared all that much and care even less in recent years. As far as issues I look at before voting for someone, it doesn't make the top ten. In fact, I wouldn't even bother to ask what the candidate's position was unless they announced it, because there are so many other things I DO care about that are vastly more important. I've looked at the stats for states that DO have legal SSM, and the number of couples who take advantage of legal SSM is tiny in comparison to the population.... hell it is tiny even compared to the presumed-gay percentage of the population. Apparently the number of people who want to make a huge issue out of SSM is several gazillion times larger than the number of people who actually want to DO it.I'd almost just as soon legalize it so we can put it to bed, stop wasting time and focus on things that are actually important. Things that are actually going to affect more than 1 person in a thousand.
It just seems hopeless. Gay marriage, as far as opinions go, I'm very much against and it disgusts me as a twisted mockery. But, I see the handwriting on the wall, and the main thing that bothered me is that we're not a theocracy. In my perfect world it would not exist. If there was some hidden knowledge I could discover to use in debate, that was effective, that'd help. It's just that since opposition to gay marriage is pretty much religious... it's very difficult to debate using morals and religion against logic and doubt. Gay marriage, even though it's overlooked, could prove to be a serious issue if the KJV bible is correct, and God no longer, how do I say it, cares for America. I just hope we're not marching on, obliviously, into destruction.
 
Back
Top Bottom