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Socialism can work

Social Security is a long way from communism. I don't know enough about your ideology, but, in my experience, most of those who claim to be 'Classical Liberals' aren't, they're usually disciples of Ayn Rand, as opposed to, y'know, Adam Smith, or James Madison. Regardless; two wrongs don't make a right. I see no reason to budge. I mean, I can't stop you from calling yourself a 'Libertarian', but there's no reason for me to take that seriously.

Well, it's funny that you make so many assumptions about my philosophy anyway. I'm not sure I've ever posted the words "social security" anywhere on the site in nearly 10,000 posts, let alone in this thread, so save the strawmen.

Besides, my personal philosophy has nothing to do with the fact that words change meaning in common parlance and insisting on using a word the way you prefer rather than how most people now understand is your own communication problem, not anyone else's. So, get your panties in a bunch over it if you wish, but don't expect anyone else to care.
 
Well, it's funny that you make so many assumptions about my philosophy anyway. I'm not sure I've ever posted the words "social security" anywhere on the site in nearly 10,000 posts, let alone in this thread, so save the strawmen.

It was a perfectly fair, and topical response to your bogus claim that the very minimal welfare state in the US constitutes state socialism.

Besides, my personal philosophy has nothing to do…

You brought it up, mac.

…with the fact that words change meaning in common parlance and insisting on using a word the way you prefer rather than how most people now understand is your own communication problem, not anyone else's. So, get your panties in a bunch over it if you wish, but don't expect anyone else to care.

For communication to be possible, we need a consensus on language. Also; I can start calling dogs ‘fish’, or ‘bats’, or ‘constitutional republics’, but that doesn’t mean that anybody else is obligated to comply. I use the historical definition, the literal definition, that is still used in every country besides the United States. How most Americans understand this word (They don’t.) is not relevant. Most people, Americans, certainly, aren’t particularly bright. I’m not responsible for their deficiencies. I didn’t make them deficient. Most of the time, I modify the word ‘Libertarian’ with the redundant ‘Socialist’, so as not to be confused with the Ron Paul cult, but this in no way lends credence to their/your continued misapplication of this word.

Back to the subject at hand…
 
Friedman said it best:

"There has been one underlying basic fallacy in this whole set of social security and welfare measures. And that is the fallacy, and this is at the bottom of it, the fallacy that it is feasible and possible to do good with other people's money. Now you see that view has two flaws. If I want to do good with other people's money I first have to take it away from them. That means that the welfare state philosophy of doing good with other people's money, at it's very bottom, is a philosophy of violence and coercion. It's against freedom. Because I have to use force to get the money. In the second place, very few people spend other people's money as carefully as they spend their own."

Yet, you, apparently, have zero problem with a completely unaccountable private dictatorship forcibly taking peoples’ earnings for the benefit of a small clique of elites who have bought the ‘right’ to extort said people. Also; this says absolutely nothing about any branch of Socialism.
 
Yippee. That's not a response to anything I said (which is kind of what you do). He was also the driving force behind turning Castro's regime totalitarian, while others pushed against it.

I would argue that Cuba is not a "totalitarian regime" but that is beyond this thread.. .There are about 6 or 7 threads about Che where i would love to debate this subject there...
 
Yet, you, apparently, have zero problem with a completely unaccountable private dictatorship forcibly taking peoples’ earnings for the benefit of a small clique of elites who have bought the ‘right’ to extort said people. Also; this says absolutely nothing about any branch of Socialism.

What?
Which 'unaccountable private dictatorship forcing taking people's earnings'?

And it has everything to do with socialism. How do you turn a private ownership of business into a co-operative without forcibly taking it?
 
I would argue that Cuba is not a "totalitarian regime" but that is beyond this thread.. .There are about 6 or 7 threads about Che where i would love to debate this subject there...

Oh, I'm sure you would.
 
Why wouldn't anyone start a new business?
Is the only reason why people start business is to get rich?
It's a primary motivating factor in business to be rewarded for the risks taken and effort put in place. Why, should people only start businesses to make employees rich?

And you cant have the under socialism why?
Why cant you create someting the world has never imagined under socialism?
Because Socialism does not reward innovation, hard work or hell change for that matter. Socialism is static.
You say a business should be a group of people that all are equal and have a say in the business. How is that business going to make decisions in a timely manner? Make the tough decisions like cutting positions to keep from going under... new product lines... adapting to changing business markets. These things require a VISION, and a LEADER. Not a Committee of individuals.
Hmmm really?
Why is that?
Because they just TAKE, they create nothing, and STEAL from the rightful owners, without compensation for their actions.
Ahh yes socialism got us here right? :lamo
Yes, actually Big Government spending and solutions are the reason we'e 16T in debt and counting.
 
Yet, you, apparently, have zero problem with a completely unaccountable private dictatorship forcibly taking peoples’ earnings for the benefit of a small clique of elites who have bought the ‘right’ to extort said people. Also; this says absolutely nothing about any branch of Socialism.

Try to define this in real terms instead of abstract theoretical constructs.
 
It was a perfectly fair, and topical response to your bogus claim that the very minimal welfare state in the US constitutes state socialism.

No, not really; it was pretty much a textbook strawman.

You can classify "minimal" however you wish (though it's pretty self-serving here); I never said today's so-called "liberals" have gotten everything they wanted. I also said "toward," not "there already."


You brought it up, mac.

And you chose to make up things I didn't say.


For communication to be possible, we need a consensus on language. Also; I can start calling dogs ‘fish’, or ‘bats’, or ‘constitutional republics’, but that doesn’t mean that anybody else is obligated to comply. I use the historical definition, the literal definition, that is still used in every country besides the United States. How most Americans understand this word (They don’t.) is not relevant. Most people, Americans, certainly, aren’t particularly bright. I’m not responsible for their deficiencies. I didn’t make them deficient. Most of the time, I modify the word ‘Libertarian’ with the redundant ‘Socialist’, so as not to be confused with the Ron Paul cult, but this in no way lends credence to their/your continued misapplication of this word.

Right, and "gay" still means "happy" and "erection" still means "building" and everyone will get exactly what you mean if you use them that way in casual conversation, and it's their problem, not yours, if they don't.
 
What?
Which 'unaccountable private dictatorship forcing taking people's earnings'?

Corporations. The characterization is perfectly accurate.

And it has everything to do with socialism. How do you turn a private ownership of business into a co-operative without forcibly taking it?

Freidman’s quote didn’t say anything about that, the quote revolved around the merits of the minimal welfare state.

First of all; the question implies that private control of the means of production is legitimate, I disagree. No-one has the right to buy the privilege of extorting my earnings for their own purposes, without my participation, or consent. Sorry. Regardless; there are other possibilities. The owners could, theoretically, willingly abdicate control. (Admittedly, that’s probably not very likely.) Or, it could happen, incrementally, over a long period of time. Say, with trade unions evolving into some kind of workers’ councils, etc.
 
Read more @: Socialism can work - StumbleUponI believe that socialism can work. If you believe that socialism cannot work I ask you why? Why? Just take a look at this article.

Thoughts?
comments?
Response? [/FONT][/COLOR]

The US is actually partially capitalistic and partially socialistic - the problem is that we haven't worked out the bugs in combining these two important ideologies
 
Corporations. The characterization is perfectly accurate.

Riiiiiiight. Name a single corporation which forces money from you.

I'll name at least four governmental bodies who actually do, from me.
 
First of all; the question implies that private control of the means of production is legitimate, I disagree. , I disagree. No-one has the right to buy the privilege of extorting my earnings for their own purposes, without my participation, or consent. Sorry.
That's generally true in the U.S. under current law. That is, private control is legitimate, and at the same time no one has the right to buy the privelage of extorting your earnings without your participation or consent. So you aren't "disagreeing" with the current system, despite your insistence that you are. And if things are the way that you apparently want, why aren't you enjoying those liberties rather than turning right around proclaiming you want to take the libertries you claim to desire, away from yourself? It sounds kind of crazy, right?

Liberty is exactly that, you have the freedom to work, or not work. To work for others, or work for yourself. To create a worker owned business and work for each other (?), or particpate in the market as a corporation or individual employee and implicitly "work with everyone for the greater good". I appreciate Apples Ipad, and the people who engineered it, marketed it, etc. I hope the work I do, they, or at least some people, likewise appreciate.

Regardless; there are other possibilities. The owners could, theoretically, willingly abdicate control. (Admittedly, that’s probably not very likely.) Or, it could happen, incrementally, over a long period of time. Say, with trade unions evolving into some kind of workers’ councils, etc.
So over time, others would obtain the right to extort your earnings for their own purposes, without your participation or consent!!! It appears that what you want, the U.S. already does. And what you do NOT want, is what your "new era" would actually usher in!

How do you not see these obvious contradictions? How do you reconcile them?
 
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That's generally true in the U.S. under current law. That is, private control is legitimate, and at the same time no one has the right to buy the privelage of extorting your earnings without your participation or consent. So you aren't "disagreeing" with the current system, despite your insistence that you are. And if things are the way that you apparently want, why aren't you enjoying those liberties rather than turning right around proclaiming you want to take the libertries you claim to desire, away from yourself? It sounds kind of crazy, right?

Liberty is exactly that, you have the freedom to work, or not work. To work for others, or work for yourself. To create a worker owned business and work for each other (?), or particpate in the market as a corporation or individual employee and implicitly "work with everyone for the greater good". I appreciate Apples Ipad, and the people who engineered it, marketed it, etc. I hope the work I do, they, or at least some people, likewise appreciate.


So over time, others would obtain the right to extort your earnings for their own purposes, without your participation or consent!!! It appears that what you want, the U.S. already does. And what you do NOT want, is what your "new era" would actually usher in!

How do you not see these obvious contradictions? How do you reconcile them?

Thing is, everything they say they want, they could have. Today. They need only go find a plot of land and go do it, and let anyone who wants to join them.

Wouldn't be any sweat off my nose if they did.

But what they want is to force everyone else to live that way, too.
 
That's generally true in the U.S. under current law. That is, private control is legitimate, and at the same time no one has the right to buy the privelage of extorting your earnings without your participation or consent. So you aren't "disagreeing" with the current system, despite your insistence that you are. And if things are the way that you apparently want, why aren't you enjoying those liberties rather than turning right around proclaiming you want to take the libertries you claim to desire, away from yourself? It sounds kind of crazy, right?

Liberty is exactly that, you have the freedom to work, or not work. To work for others, or work for yourself. To create a worker owned business and work for each other (?), or particpate in the market as a corporation or individual employee and implicitly "work with everyone for the greater good". I appreciate Apples Ipad, and the people who engineered it, marketed it, etc. I hope the work I do, they, or at least some people, likewise appreciate.


So over time, others would obtain the right to extort your earnings for their own purposes, without your participation or consent!!! It appears that what you want, the U.S. already does. And what you do NOT want, is what your "new era" would actually usher in!

How do you not see these obvious contradictions? How do you reconcile them?

No, you’re not getting it. Part of the problem is you’re entirely negative conception of freeom. Liberty is both positive, and negative. (‘Freedom to’, in addition to ‘Freedom from.’

That’s exactly how it works. People like you make a big deal about contracts but you ignore the fact that those contracts are entered into by unequal parties, and under duress. I didn’t negotiate with the corporation I work for. They dictated the terms, unilaterally. I had absolutely no input. I wasn’t even asked. Furthermore; I was one atomistic individual motivated by the need to maintain food and shelter, against a multimillion-dollar corporation with a team of lawyers, lobbyists, etc. They take the majority of the money that I, and my co-workers earn for themselves, while we are denied any input or participation, of any kind. The only alternative is to work for another private dictatorship, or starve to death. That’s the kind of ‘freedom’ you offer. If we apply the same criteria to politics; North Korea is a paradigm of liberty. ‘Nuff said.


Liberty is a bit more than that. Also; most of this is totally compatible with Libertarian Socialism. In a Libertarian society, you would still have the right to starve to death, which you so cherish. There’s also nothing about the manufacture of iPad’s, or an equivalent device, that necessitates a Nation-State, or a massive private dictatorship.

There is no contradiction, here. The contradiction is in your bemoaning the offense of a miniscule fraction of your taxes being spent on the minimal welfare state, while celebrating corporations taking a significantly larger sum of your earnings, without your consent. At least in the case of the state you actually have some influence.
 
No, you’re not getting it. Part of the problem is you’re entirely negative conception of freeom. Liberty is both positive, and negative. (‘Freedom to’, in addition to ‘Freedom from.’

That’s exactly how it works. People like you make a big deal about contracts but you ignore the fact that those contracts are entered into by unequal parties, and under duress. I didn’t negotiate with the corporation I work for. They dictated the terms, unilaterally. I had absolutely no input. I wasn’t even asked. Furthermore; I was one atomistic individual motivated by the need to maintain food and shelter, against a multimillion-dollar corporation with a team of lawyers, lobbyists, etc. They take the majority of the money that I, and my co-workers earn for themselves, while we are denied any input or participation, of any kind. The only alternative is to work for another private dictatorship, or starve to death. That’s the kind of ‘freedom’ you offer. If we apply the same criteria to politics; North Korea is a paradigm of liberty. ‘Nuff said.


Liberty is a bit more than that. Also; most of this is totally compatible with Libertarian Socialism. In a Libertarian society, you would still have the right to starve to death, which you so cherish. There’s also nothing about the manufacture of iPad’s, or an equivalent device, that necessitates a Nation-State, or a massive private dictatorship.

There is no contradiction, here. The contradiction is in your bemoaning the offense of a miniscule fraction of your taxes being spent on the minimal welfare state, while celebrating corporations taking a significantly larger sum of your earnings, without your consent. At least in the case of the state you actually have some influence.

You have quite a few other options. To say that your "only" choice is to work for a corporation means that you don't have much ambition or creativity. (I'm self-employed -- why aren't you?)

This is the kind of mentality which shows why "workers" don't spontaneously get together and build and manage their own factories, and why even Marx understood that the economic infrastructure has to be built by capitalists before the socialists can have anything worth confiscating.
 
Yet, you, apparently, have zero problem with a completely unaccountable private dictatorship forcibly taking peoples’ earnings for the benefit of a small clique of elites who have bought the ‘right’ to extort said people.

And these private dictatorships are....

Corporations.

Corporations are dictatorships? I don't know of any corporation that can write legislation, or that can arrest and imprison people. Help me out here. How are corporations dictatorships?
 
This is the kind of mentality which shows why "workers" don't spontaneously get together and build and manage their own factories, and why even Marx understood that the economic infrastructure has to be built by capitalists before the socialists can have anything worth confiscating.
I wish I could "like" this 100 times.
 
Thing is, everything they say they want, they could have. Today. They need only go find a plot of land and go do it, and let anyone who wants to join them.

Wouldn't be any sweat off my nose if they did.

But what they want is to force everyone else to live that way, too.

That’s really not feasible, for a number of reasons. Not in the least which because the United States government has exerted substantial force destroying such experiments. The primary threat in Washington’s eyes was not a military one, contrary to the shrill, and ridiculous protestations of the Reagan administration, none of the Latin American Socialist countries represented any kind of military threat to the United States. The primary concern was the fear of ‘successful defiance.’ Alternative economic models, especially in the region, had to be destroyed, at all costs.

Also; you’re implying that this is a minority opinion. By all evidence, the overwhelming majority of Americans absolutely despise the system you’re defending. They hate it. Most of my co-workers have probably never heard the phrase 'Wage-Slavery’, but they implicitly understand the meaning, because they live it every day. It is this system that is being forced upon them. What I propose is substantially more free, and democratic.
 
That’s really not feasible, for a number of reasons. Not in the least which because the United States government has exerted substantial force destroying such experiments. The primary threat in Washington’s eyes was not a military one, contrary to the shrill, and ridiculous protestations of the Reagan administration, none of the Latin American Socialist countries represented any kind of military threat to the United States. The primary concern was the fear of ‘successful defiance.’ Alternative economic models, especially in the region, had to be destroyed, at all costs.

Also; you’re implying that this is a minority opinion. By all evidence, the overwhelming majority of Americans absolutely despise the system you’re defending. They hate it. Most of my co-workers have probably never heard the phrase 'Wage-Slavery’, but they implicitly understand the meaning, because they live it every day. It is this system that is being forced upon them. What I propose is substantially more free, and democratic.

Poppycock.

Find a plot of land in Montana or South Dakota and do your thing. No one will bother you.

But you want to bother everyone else.
 
And these private dictatorships are....

Corporations are dictatorships? I don't know of any corporation that can write legislation, or that can arrest and imprison people. Help me out here. How are corporations dictatorships?

Corporations resemble nothing more than the totalitarian state. They are ruled by a small elite clique, who have total control, and whose will is beyond question. They are economic dictatorships. Political freedoms without freedom in ones' private life is like a sandwich without bread. Americans may have the right to vote for whichever wing of the business party they choose, but from 9-5, five days a week, or more, they are Wage-Slaves.
 
Corporations resemble nothing more than the totalitarian state. They are ruled by a small elite clique, who have total control, and whose will is beyond question. They are economic dictatorships. Political freedoms without freedom in ones' private life is like a sandwich without bread. Americans may have the right to vote for whichever wing of the business party they choose, but from 9-5, five days a week, or more, they are Wage-Slaves.

I ask again -- I'm self-employed; why aren't you?
 
Poppycock.

Find a plot of land in Montana or South Dakota and do your thing. No one will bother you.

But you want to bother everyone else.

See; Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Cuba, 'School of the Americas/WHINSEC', Archbishop Oscar Romero, etc.

You act as if this is actually a choice. Again; you gloss over the fact that, overwhelmingly, Americans absolutely hate the system you're defending.
 
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