• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Hate" Speech

N

NoJewsNoMuslims

Banned
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Location
Easton, Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
 
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

Unlimited freedom of speech is a bad idea. For instance, back when there were still Christian countries, publicly speaking against the faith was illegal. It's just that now, liberalism is the official ideology, so insulting its sacred cows is illegal/firable.

This is of course an awful situation, but the solution isn't to insist on more freedom, it's to make people realize that absolute freedom is an illusion.
 
Paleocon said:
Unlimited freedom of speech is a bad idea. For instance, back when there were still Christian countries, publicly speaking against the faith was illegal. It's just that now, liberalism is the official ideology, so insulting its sacred cows is illegal/firable.

This is of course an awful situation, but the solution isn't to insist on more freedom, it's to make people realize that absolute freedom is an illusion.
Click to expand...

Well, that was a terrible example.
 
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

People DO have the right to express themselves as they choose.

They are simply held accountable for harms caused by what they say or do in such "expression."

People are seldom penalized if they cause no harm from their expression. I don't count "hurt feelings" as a harm, and cannot support efforts in that regard.

However, they can be subject to slander and libel suits; criminal charges if they are attempting to, or actually cause a riot; or any other kinds of actual harms (like the injuries from panic caused by yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded place).

Misuse of ANY Right can lead to penalties.
 
Last edited:
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

In before the flush...

Can you show what laws congress has made about hate speech please?
 
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

That's the most asinine strawman I've seen in quite some time. No one is telling racists to quit being ignoramuses because it's against the Constitution. They're telling them to quite being ignoramuses for moral reasons. You're perfectly legally allowed to say "I think whites are the superior race," but that doesn't prohibit you from being a morally bankrupt buffoon. Those are separate things. (Likewise, just because I support a neo-nazi's right to say bigoted nonsense doesn't mean that I support the bigoted nonsense.)
 
FieldTheorist said:
That's the most asinine strawman I've seen in quite some time. No one is telling racists to quit being ignoramuses because it's against the Constitution. They're telling them to quite being ignoramuses for moral reasons. You're perfectly legally allowed to say "I think whites are the superior race," but that doesn't prohibit you from being a morally bankrupt buffoon. Those are separate things. (Likewise, just because I support a neo-nazi's right to say bigoted nonsense doesn't mean that I support the bigoted nonsense.)
Click to expand...

What, precisely, is immoral about having a preference for one's own people.
 
Paleocon said:
but the solution isn't to insist on more freedom, it's to make people realize that absolute freedom is an illusion.
Click to expand...
We should probably teach them that safety is a fantasy first.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We should probably teach them that safety is a fantasy first.
Click to expand...

True. Absolute safety and absolute freedom are both undesirable and impossible.
 
Paleocon said:
What, precisely, is immoral about having a preference for one's own people.
Click to expand...

First of all, that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say (then) that I had a disdain for people who prefer their own people, I said I held great disdain for racism. If "racism" is, in your mind, merely a preference for your own people, then either you need to look up the definition of racism to see why it's more than that. If you need moral instruction on why this is an appalling position, please read history books on America's (and Europe's) treatment of foreigners and other races. If that isn't transparently appalling to you, then there's little need for me to continue this conversation because it won't go anywhere.

Secondly, who is "your own people"? My "people" would be, largely, American's. And the extent of my preference for my "people" wouldn't include thinking all other people were inherently inferior and unworthy of my attention or moral consideration.
 
FieldTheorist said:
First of all, that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say (then) that I had a disdain for people who prefer their own people, I said I held great disdain for racism. If "racism" is, in your mind, merely a preference for your own people, then either you need to look up the definition of racism to see why it's more than that. If you need moral instruction on why this is an appalling position, please read history books on America's (and Europe's) treatment of foreigners and other races. If that isn't transparently appalling to you, then there's little need for me to continue this conversation because it won't go anywhere.

Secondly, who is "your own people"? My "people" would be, largely, American's. And the extent of my preference for my "people" wouldn't include thinking all other people were inherently inferior and unworthy of my attention or moral consideration.
Click to expand...

I have seen racism defined so many different ways, it's hard to count. Please give me your exact definition.
 
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

Agreed and as one that believe I should take responsibility for my words I believe every one else should also be responsible. Never forget that while we do have Freedom of Speech we do not have freedom from consequences that may result from our expression of our rights.
 
Casper said:
Agreed and as one that believe I should take responsibility for my words I believe every one else should also be responsible. Never forget that while we do have Freedom of Speech we do not have freedom from consequences that may result from our expression of our rights.
Click to expand...

The question is whether the alleged emotional condition of the people in the room should decide the parameters of the conversation. Does truth get a pass even if it is not wanted and we agreed to forcibly restrict the conversation as to not upset the weak? I say it has to if we are going to survive but I seem to be a tiny minority.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The question is whether the alleged emotional condition of the people in the room should decide the parameters of the conversation. Does truth get a pass even if it is not wanted and we agreed to forcibly restrict the conversation as to not upset the weak? I say it has to if we are going to survive but I seem to be a tiny minority.
Click to expand...

There are any number of bars in Georgia and maybe a couple in Texas ;) where the emotional condition in the room will most certainly decide the parameters of conversation of someone such as yourself, especially if you use terms such as "redneck" and "bubba", just to name a couple. The same could be said about speaking as you please in places like south Boston or south Philly.

There is a reason why people like you are in the minority. Most do indeed have a tough time surviving. :lamo
 
Risky Thicket said:
There are any number of bars in Georgia and maybe a couple in Texas ;) where the emotional condition in the room will most certainly decide the parameters of conversation of someone such as yourself, especially if you use terms such as "redneck" and "bubba", just to name a couple. The same could be said about speaking as you please in places in south Boston or south Philly.

There is a reason why people like you are a minority. Most do indeed have a tough time surviving. :lamo
Click to expand...

When I was at Able2know a bunch of people told me " go into a bar and say that and see what happens" I said "Makes no difference, speaking truth is part of my code, and being connected to reality is a major part of my lifes work.

If you want your fantasies supported then you dont want to be around me. I am very dangerous to people like that.I was beat up a lot as a kid, but I did not betray myself then and I will certainly not do so now.
 
My understanding of Hate Speech laws is that if it is shown that a certain crime was committed and the motivation was "hate" the punishment is more severe. Seems to me that someone of a certain conviction to hate something or other should be able to live with that. If the hate is worth it, do the crime and accept the extra time.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
When I was at Able2know a bunch of people told me " go into a bar and say that and see what happens" I said "Makes no difference, speaking truth is part of my code, and being connected to reality is a major part of my lifes work.

If you want your fantasies supported then you dont want to be around me. I am very dangerous to people like that. And I was bear up a lot as a kid, I did not betray myself than and I will certainly not do so now.
Click to expand...

1) Presentation is EVERYTHING.
2) Know your audience.
3) Just because you know the truth, doesn't mean you have to say the truth. Discretion is sometimes the better part of valor.
4) Pick your moments.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
When I was at Able2know a bunch of people told me " go into a bar and say that and see what happens" I said "Makes no difference, speaking truth is part of my code, and being connected to reality is a major part of my lifes work.

If you want your fantasies supported then you dont want to be around me. I am very dangerous to people like that.I was beat up a lot as a kid, but I did not betray myself then and I will certainly not do so now.
Click to expand...

Took a lot head shots, didn't you?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
1) Presentation is EVERYTHING.
2) Know your audience.
3) Just because you know the truth, doesn't mean you have to say the truth. Discretion is sometimes the better part of valor.
4) Pick your moments.
Click to expand...

Good advice if one is looking to make friends, Dont rock the boat, ya, people who are making demands for better often get told this. For instance where did womens rights ever get before they stop being willing to be pacified and controlled.

Codes are not negotiable. People and places are either good enough for me or they are not.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Good advice if one is looking to make friends, Dont rock the boat, ya, people who are making demands for better often get told this. For instance where did womens rights ever get before they stop being willing to be pacified and controlled.

Codes are not negotiable. People and places are either good enough for me or they are not.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with making friends, and has nothing to do with being pacified or being controlled.. and has everything to do with getting your point noticed and accepted for it's validity. Every point I made is about getting your message out there in a way that it gets heard. If you don't follow rule #1, especially, your position will be irrelevant, regardless of what it is. Bulls in china shops just break things and are seen as a nuisance. Whatever value they hold pales in comparison to those things.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Has nothing to do with making friends, and has nothing to do with being pacified or being controlled.. and has everything to do with getting your point noticed and accepted for it's validity. Every point I made is about getting your message out there in a way that it gets heard. If you don't follow rule #1, especially, your position will be irrelevant, regardless of what it is. Bulls in china shops just break things and are seen as a nuisance. Whatever value they hold pales in comparison to those things.
Click to expand...

What if all they want to do is shut you up? Do you just say nothing?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Has nothing to do with making friends, and has nothing to do with being pacified or being controlled.. and has everything to do with getting your point noticed and accepted for it's validity. Every point I made is about getting your message out there in a way that it gets heard. If you don't follow rule #1, especially, your position will be irrelevant, regardless of what it is. Bulls in china shops just break things and are seen as a nuisance. Whatever value they hold pales in comparison to those things.
Click to expand...

Dang, I am not six, but just as I need to deal with others others need to deal with me. And more importantly need to deal with truth. You are very close to saying that it is not the value of the idea that counts but rather how well the one who speaks it jacks everyone in the room off first.

Be careful with that.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Dang, I am not six, but just as I need to deal with others others need to deal with me. And more importantly need to deal with truth. You are very close to saying that it is not the value of the idea that counts but rather how well the one who speaks it jacks everyone in the room off first. Be careful with that.
Click to expand...

That is precisely what I am saying. If you have the greatest idea in the world... and present it in the worst way possible, no one will care and it will be ignored. If you want to be dealt with, effectively, you need to know how to present yourself and deal with others. It's a two way street.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom