• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Hate" Speech

Hawkeye10 said:
I am Zen, we believe more than almost anyone else on the planet that humans are interconnected.

Time to move on, talking will not help. I am going to speak truth, and you will either respect that enough to allow it or you will not. If you dont then DP was not good enough to warrant my being here so fine, it is what it is.

My people, the truth tellers, are around, just not in the numbers that I would like.
Click to expand...

YOUR truth is not THE truth. I am uninterested in whether or not you agree with that, but it's accurate. You are not talking about 2=2+4 here.

And I am not stopping you from speaking. I am doing several things. I am telling you, from my experience, how effective communication works. I am also telling you that many things of which we discuss here are subjective, so using words like "truth" when discussing opinions will be confronted. That's all. You can say what you want, but if you expect to be listened to without question, or not confronted, then you are in for a few unpleasant surprises.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am Zen, we believe more than almost anyone else on the planet that humans are interconnected.

Time to move on, talking will not help. I am going to speak truth, and you will either respect that enough to allow it or you will not. If you dont then DP was not good enough to warrant my being here so fine, it is what it is.

My people, the truth tellers, are around, just not in the numbers that I would like.
Click to expand...

You value truth and you support Trump? He pretty much admitted cozying up to the Clinton's because he needed something, but now he wants something from GOP voters. How can we be sure of anything he says?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
1) Truth is subjective in the context of what we are discussing... politics.
Click to expand...

That isn't entirely true though. In terms of what decisions we should make it is subjective, but when it comes to what those decisions mean several facts start coming to the forefront. Yes, there will plenty of predictions thrown around, a whole bunch of opinion, but all the same, if I was to say something like lets deport all illegals there are certain realities that come into play that have to be dealt with in order to make that happen and certain consequences that would occur if the plan was successful.

2) There is nothing you can do to make anyone HEAR anything if they do not want to. You do not have that kind of control.
Click to expand...

But that doesn't make it not needed to be said. You can't make someone hear you tell them that doing something is a bad idea, but if you believe it is a bad idea and something they should avoid doing, you should tell them. It might have absolutely no effect, but at least you tried to set them straight.

3) You CAN have some influence on those who MAY not want to hear what you want to say. If you want to have influence, my suggestion would be to follow my 4 points. If you don't, you will fail.
Click to expand...

I agree, sometimes it just comes down to how you handle the situation, but sadly in politics all to often it just doesn't matter.

4) And of course it is about intent or understanding. If your intent is not to be heard, you can say anything you want, anyway you want.
Click to expand...

I suppose that is true.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Guess what? Trump is an "elite". A rich businessman isn't one of the "little people". And he hasn't done anything different from any other wacko that's tried to run for President, even those who would be mainstream party men (or women) wackos. He uses the media just like any other media hound would. He reminds me of Bill Clinton in his first campaign. Oh... and there are plenty of "little people" who he does NOT speak for.
Click to expand...

He's not just a rich business man, he's a reality TV star. I don't think there's a thing wrong in either of those things, but yeah, his life experience is about as unique as it gets.
 
Henrin said:
That isn't entirely true though. In terms of what decisions we should make it is subjective, but when it comes to what those decisions mean several facts start coming to the forefront. Yes, there will plenty of predictions thrown around, a whole bunch of opinion, but all the same, if I was to say something like lets deport all illegals there are certain realities that come into play that have to be dealt with in order to make that happen and certain consequences that would occur if the plan was successful.
Click to expand...

If you were to say, "let's deport all illegals" you would need to convince folks that this is a good idea in order for things to come to order to make that happen. The concept of deporting all illegals isn't a political truth; it's a political opinion that can turn into a procedural truth IF enough folks are convinced it should be done. That's where all my points come into play. How are you going to convince those that can help to make it happen, that it SHOULD happen? Just by saying, "this is the truth and you must listen to it"? That won't work.

But that doesn't make it not needed to be said. You can't make someone hear you tell them that doing something is a bad idea, but if you believe it is a bad idea and something they should avoid doing, you should tell them. It might have absolutely no effect, but at least you tried to set them straight.
Click to expand...

Of course you can say it. I never said you shouldn't. What's your intent? To say it or to change their decision? That difference in intent can be reflected in how you communicate what you want to say. And remember... what may be a good idea for you may not be a good idea for another. That's besides the point, though.

I agree, sometimes it just comes down to how you handle the situation, but sadly in politics all to often it just doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

More often than not, that's true.

I suppose that is true.
Click to expand...

Sure. That's why intent and purpose have a place in how things are communicated.
 
X Factor said:
He's not just a rich business man, he's a reality TV star. I don't think there's a thing wrong in either of those things, but yeah, his life experience is about as unique as it gets.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
Paleocon said:
I have seen racism defined so many different ways, it's hard to count. Please give me your exact definition.
Click to expand...

It's a pretty standard term:

Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.​

In other words, I consider racism to be any belief that races should be separated, that the races are fundamentally different, that specific races should keep to themselves or be kept out of specific jobs, or otherwise have prioritize one race or races above other races. Note the "or" and not "and."
 
Hawkeye10 said:
How one pursues the POTUS chair. How the media reports the run for the POTUS chair. Hopefully the elites awareness of where the little people are, what we believe, hopefully who the elite think run this thing we call a country.
Click to expand...

The very wealthy and powerful do not know and cannot empathize with the 99% nor do they care. And the very wealthy and powerful do in fact run this country. You can tell the truth all day long to people who aren't interested and it matters little.

Trump is a showman. He's been very upfront about that. His antics gain him an inordinate amount of press.

Yes, Trump's success thus far speaks truth to the growing realization that the American dream is rapidly fading for white middle and working class Americans. Independents and Liberals have been speaking that truth for quite a while now, long before Trump picked up the banner.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Reality TV wasn't around when FDR was President.
Click to expand...

Sure it was. Don't you remember FDR getting on the television to reassure us when the stock market crashed? :mrgreen:
 
Hawkeye10 said:
When I was at Able2know a bunch of people told me " go into a bar and say that and see what happens" I said "Makes no difference, speaking truth is part of my code, and being connected to reality is a major part of my lifes work.

If you want your fantasies supported then you dont want to be around me. I am very dangerous to people like that.I was beat up a lot as a kid, but I did not betray myself then and I will certainly not do so now.
Click to expand...

There is a huge diff between lying just to keep the peace, refraining from being a douchebag, and going out of one's way to be a douchebag. Example of #2: I might be atheist but i'm not going to argue with someone in mourning, even if they insist their dead loved one is "in a better place." Example of #3: Going to a bar just to start **** with the first person who rubs you the wrong way

Your excuse to engage in #3 makes me think you could use some anger management. Not everyone at the bar beat you up as a kid
 
X Factor said:
He's not just a rich business man, he's a reality TV star. I don't think there's a thing wrong in either of those things, but yeah, his life experience is about as unique as it gets.
Click to expand...

People can have unique experiences without raving about the mexicans, muslims, women, censoring the internet, and being flattered by putin. Look at jesse ventura - navy seal, pro wrestling villain, governor as independent, movie star - yet i have never heard him engage in such hateful lunacy on these topics as trump

Now, trump has always been a little misogynist, and not just at rosie o'donnell, but a lot of his rhetoric can be blamed on the republican primary. Look at the other candidates too and tell me it's not a coincidence every one of them has been vocally anti gay and anti muslim

I agree it's not that he's a rich businessman or in tv that has made trump or say mike huckabee or ted cruz so despicable. It must be something in the republican water. Maybe if ventura had ran as republican, he would've fallen in the same trap
 
chromium said:
Now, trump has always been a little misogynist, and not just at rosie o'donnell, but a lot of his rhetoric can be blamed on the republican primary. Look at the other candidates too and tell me it's not a coincidence every one of them has been vocally anti gay and anti muslim
Click to expand...

Would that you knew that Trump is pro gay and pro immigrant (he is anti illegal activity, which is not the same thing at all).
 
Risky Thicket said:
Yes, Trump's success thus far speaks truth to the growing realization that the American dream is rapidly fading for white middle and working class Americans. Independents and Liberals have been speaking that truth for quite a while now, long before Trump picked up the banner.
Click to expand...

You sound like Sanders, who sees every bit of America through the prism of his economic theory, and thus misses a lot. It is about how the economy is failing the people sure, but it is a about a lot more than that. The Trump revolution is about who decides, it is about freedom from a government that is always grabbing for more power, always issuing directives and lectures to the American people, but cant ever seem to get their work done well if at all.

It is about respect for the rightful owners of America, the American people.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Would that you knew that Trump is pro gay and pro immigrant (he is anti illegal activity, which is not the same thing at all).
Click to expand...

actually his statements have been more like "the supreme court made its decision so let's move on," not support for that decision.

"I'm not in favor of gay marriage. They should not be able to marry."

is not pro gay. GLAAD is especially opposed to trump. He can be miles ahead of all other repubs on this and still not pro gay

being 'pro legal immigrant' is worthless if you define almost all immigration as illegal, which he wishes to. Give me a break, he has been so hysterically xenophobic that it's little wonder hulk hogan wants to be his running mate
 
FieldTheorist said:
It's a pretty standard term:
Click to expand...

Yet your personal definition is broader (but equally dumb) than the one you quoted.

Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.​

In other words, I consider racism to be any belief that races should be separated, that the races are fundamentally different, that specific races should keep to themselves or be kept out of specific jobs, or otherwise have prioritize one race or races above other races. Note the "or" and not "and."
Click to expand...

The races are inherently different. This is simple reality. So apparently, you regard reality as racist.

And what, precisely, is wrong with segregation?
 
Captain Adverse said:
People DO have the right to express themselves as they choose.

They are simply held accountable for harms caused by what they say or do in such "expression."


However, they can be subject to slander and libel suits; criminal charges if they are attempting to, or actually cause a riot; or any other kinds of actual harms (like the injuries from panic caused by yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded place).

Misuse of ANY Right can lead to penalties.
Click to expand...

A few nuances are needed to make your statements accurate. First, attempting to "cause a riot" is criminal when the incitement test of Brandenburg v. Ohio is satisfied. The incitement test is 1.)advocacy of the use of force or of law violation and such advocacy is 2.) directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and 3.)is likely to incite or produce such action.

Absent those elements, then speech requesting, advocating, or demanding lawless action, indeed a riot is lawless action, is not criminal.

Second, the actual statement is "falsely shouting fire."
 
NoJewsNoMuslims said:
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution clearly says that citizens have the ABSOLUTE freedom to say what they choose. This includes "hate" speech. When someone says x is offensive or bigoted and says "you can't say that!", that person would be incorrect. The Constitution of this beautiful Nation says otherwise. " Hate" speech is an expression of how an individual feels. I'm for all people saying what they want. Period.
Click to expand...

Clearly lacking an understand of what the 1st Amendment constitutes AS WELL AS what Hate Speech is...
 
FieldTheorist said:
That's the most asinine strawman I've seen in quite some time. No one is telling racists to quit being ignoramuses because it's against the Constitution. They're telling them to quite being ignoramuses for moral reasons. You're perfectly legally allowed to say "I think whites are the superior race," but that doesn't prohibit you from being a morally bankrupt buffoon. Those are separate things. (Likewise, just because I support a neo-nazi's right to say bigoted nonsense doesn't mean that I support the bigoted nonsense.)
Click to expand...

Nothing immoral about thinking white's are superior... it is simply ignorant.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The question is whether the alleged emotional condition of the people in the room should decide the parameters of the conversation. Does truth get a pass even if it is not wanted and we agreed to forcibly restrict the conversation as to not upset the weak? I say it has to if we are going to survive but I seem to be a tiny minority.
Click to expand...

No legal action stops a person from shouting "White Power" in a room full of black people...

...you are incorrectly labelling Politica Correctness as Hate Speech.
 
Bodhisattva said:
No legal action stops a person from shouting "White Power" in a room full of black people...

...you are incorrectly labelling Politica Correctness as Hate Speech.
Click to expand...

Hate speech is one aspect of the political correct program. I dont believe in hate speech, this is just one more place where SCOTUS messed up, did not hold up their responsibility to protect the citizens from an abusive government. Hate speech laws should have been deemed unconstitutional. I want to throw them out. Then I want to have the standard response to " THAT IS HATE SPEECH!" to be " get over it".

So far I dont get what I want.
 
Paleocon said:
What, precisely, is immoral about having a preference for one's own people.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the Communists said the same as they executed anyone speaking out against the state.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom