ACLU case to be heard by Supreme Court

TheIceman said:

That can move to Michigan but the difference is that neither they nor their religious bigotry will be allowed to control the government. In the south, Southern Baptist bigotry and hate are a big part of the problem. Preachers are using their congregations to make sure people who are as bigoted as they are stay in office.

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What does religious bigotry have to do with the rebel flag? The flag is more often than not flown as a sign of rebellion not racism.

roguenuke said:

Here in the south, we don't automatically assume that the rebel flag is a symbol of racism.

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Dylann Roof was from the south and he sure seemed to. I bet there are people in Germany who don't automatically assume the Swastika is a symbol of antisemitism either.

That's how ambiguity works. You say that in the south you don't automatically assume that the rebel flag is a symbol of racism, but you can't automatically assume it's not either. You're giving racists a false sense of solidarity, you're causing people like me to think you're a moron inadvertently, and your causing many African Americans to live in a heightened state of fear thinking they are surrounded by Klan sympathizers. This defeats the whole purpose of a flag. Flags are used to identify groups of people. So when you waive a flag that is ambiguous your as likely to be identified as evil as anything else. If someone has to ask you what your flag means to you then it's a stupid flag.

The fact of the matter is that flag was used by traitors to the United States willing to murder their fellow Americans in order to continue owning black people. I don't really give a rats ass what you think it means to you. The fact that you'd be willing to risk associating yourself with that kind of filth at all doesn't say much about you. So if you think you get to decide what your flag means to you then I will continue to decide what your flag means to me, and to me it indicates that you're untrustworthy, dangerous, and and at best ignorant.

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MrWonka said:

Dylann Roof was from the south and he sure seemed to. I bet there are people in Germany who don't automatically assume the Swastika is a symbol of antisemitism either.

That's how ambiguity works. You say that in the south you don't automatically assume that the rebel flag is a symbol of racism, but you can't automatically assume it's not either. You're giving racists a false sense of solidarity, you're causing people like me to think you're a moron inadvertently, and your causing many African Americans to live in a heightened state of fear thinking they are surrounded by Klan sympathizers. This defeats the whole purpose of a flag. Flags are used to identify groups of people. So when you waive a flag that is ambiguous your as likely to be identified as evil as anything else. If someone has to ask you what your flag means to you then it's a stupid flag.

The fact of the matter is that flag was used by traitors to the United States willing to murder their fellow Americans in order to continue owning black people. I don't really give a rats ass what you think it means to you. The fact that you'd be willing to risk associating yourself with that kind of filth at all doesn't say much about you. So if you think you get to decide what your flag means to you then I will continue to decide what your flag means to me, and to me it indicates that you're untrustworthy, dangerous, and and at best ignorant.

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The main thing it represents is rebellion, hence the name "the rebel flag". Viewing it as a symbol of racism is a new development for most people (sort of like the noise thing). Until certain groups started condemning it as a symbol of racism, without actually ascertaining the reason for anyone or any group flying it, the majority viewed it as a symbol of rebellion, with nothing to do with race at all.

roguenuke said:

"
The main thing it represents is rebellion, hence the name "the rebel flag". Viewing it as a symbol of racism is a new development for most people

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Completely 100% false. I don't what crap your southern schoolin taught you, but this is the banner of people who tried to succeed from the Union in order to keep slavery. This flag has been waived at every Klan get together since, and has been a fixture of white supremacy groups, and advocates against the civil rights movement. It's time for people like yourself to wake the **** up and realize that your southern education was intentionally white washed to keep you from understanding the truth about how ****ing horrible your ancestors truly were. All throughout the south schools teach bull**** about how the civil war wasn't about slavery it was about states rights. It's a crock of ****. "States rights" has long been the cry of those who realize they can't say "leave us alone and let us be bigots in peace" publicly. Take your confederate flags and burn them along with every other relic of the Civil War. It's time for the south to accept the reality that you lost, you were wrong, and your ancestors were **** heads who should be used as an example of how not to be an American.

ThePlayDrive said:

When are we going to stop pretending that the Confederate flag is just "an emblem of Southern pride" to some people? Barring maybe 100 people in this country, every person who displays that flag is using it as a symbol of their racist and/or xenophobic attitudes. There are hundreds of things that could be used as an "emblem of Southern pride" that have no historical ties to racism and yet, some Southerners have chosen a Confederate flag that has long been used by White supremacists to represent their "pride". I wonder why.

As far as the ACLU case, whatever. If the government can't ban the racist flag from license plates, then it can't ban 4 letter words either? What about racial slurs or "Go ISIS"? Is it just a free for all now?

Sometimes I think the ACLU is just trying to prove that it's "fair" instead of actually fighting worthwhile battles.

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I'm guessing you're also a Bernie supporter because you have your own prejudices and proclivities.

MrWonka said:

Completely 100% false. I don't what crap your southern schoolin taught you, but this is the banner of people who tried to succeed from the Union in order to keep slavery. This flag has been waived at every Klan get together since, and has been a fixture of white supremacy groups, and advocates against the civil rights movement. It's time for people like yourself to wake the **** up and realize that your southern education was intentionally white washed to keep you from understanding the truth about how ****ing horrible your ancestors truly were. All throughout the south schools teach bull**** about how the civil war wasn't about slavery it was about states rights. It's a crock of ****. "States rights" has long been the cry of those who realize they can't say "leave us alone and let us be bigots in peace" publicly. Take your confederate flags and burn them along with every other relic of the Civil War. It's time for the south to accept the reality that you lost, you were wrong, and your ancestors were **** heads who should be used as an example of how not to be an American.

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My ancestors? My family is mainly from the north and Midwest. That would be my ancestors. My family raised me in the south because that's where my fathers family eventually ended up around the beginning of the 20th century.

roguenuke said:

My ancestors? My family is mainly from the north and Midwest. That would be my ancestors. My family raised me in the south because that's where my fathers family eventually ended up around the beginning of the 20th century.

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Good for you. That doesn't change the fact that if you didn't actually grow up in the south you'd probably have a much more realistic understanding of how horrible that stupid flag is and why it should go away. Your understanding of the symbolism behind that flag is clearly ignorant of reality.

MrWonka said:

Good for you. That doesn't change the fact that if you didn't actually grow up in the south you'd probably have a much more realistic understanding of how horrible that stupid flag is and why it should go away. Your understanding of the symbolism behind that flag is clearly ignorant of reality.

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I did grow up in the South, my family, ancestors simply weren't all from the South. This is what happens in our world, people move around, change, meet people from different parts of the country and start families together. I know what people I grew up around in the South saw that flag as and very few saw it as a symbol of racism.

I see the flag as a tribute to those who stand up to federal power "big footing" state's rights.

Race has nothing to do with it in my mind. But then again if you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

roguenuke said:

I did grow up in the South, my family, ancestors simply weren't all from the South. This is what happens in our world, people move around, change, meet people from different parts of the country and start families together. I know what people I grew up around in the South saw that flag as and very few saw it as a symbol of racism.

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Though I often agree with your comments here - on this matter, the Flag of the Confederacy - I think you are wrong.

One of my ancestors, at least according to family tales, was the last Confederate general to surrender - E. Kirby Smith, so maybe I have some license to speak on the matter - maybe not.
In my opinion, the modern use of the Rebel banner is always an indicator of the racism of those who fly it, put it on bumper stickers or pay a few more dollars to have it on their license plates.

"States rights" are always used as justification for racist legislations

Somerville said:

Though I often agree with your comments here - on this matter, the Flag of the Confederacy - I think you are wrong.

One of my ancestors, at least according to family tales, was the last Confederate general to surrender - E. Kirby Smith, so maybe I have some license to speak on the matter - maybe not.
In my opinion, the modern use of the Rebel banner is always an indicator of the racism of those who fly it, put it on bumper stickers or pay a few more dollars to have it on their license plates.

"States rights" are always used as justification for racist legislations

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Seriously? So the Dukes of Hazard were racists? There are just so many people who don't see it that way. There are some who use it as a symbol of racism, but the same is true for many different flags and emblems.

I'll admit that some use it to tout modern states rights, but many of those think segregation during the Civil Rights Era was wrong and shouldn't come back. They don't see that as a legitimate states rights issue now.

Paschendale said:

ACLU is, as usual, correct, and free speech means that one can have a pro-confederate license plate.

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While I agree with you, it's a government identification plate we're talking about, and since there are now hate laws and a domestic anti racism policy, the court may opt to side with that policy. I think it would bad to not allow it, but city government buildings don't have free speech either.

roguenuke said:

Seriously? So the Dukes of Hazard were racists? There are just so many people who don't see it that way. There are some who use it as a symbol of racism, but the same is true for many different flags and emblems.

I'll admit that some use it to tout modern states rights, but many of those think segregation during the Civil Rights Era was wrong and shouldn't come back. They don't see that as a legitimate states rights issue now.

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For some strange reason enough people think the Dukes were racist that you can no longer buy a toy car of the General Lee with the flag emblazoned on it

Somerville said:

For some strange reason enough people think the Dukes were racist that you can no longer buy a toy car of the General Lee with the flag emblazoned on it

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They think this because of this mass media spamming of how racist the flag is so therefore this perpetuates the (highly mistaken) belief that every single depiction of that flag is racist and meant to be racist. It has nothing to do with the intended meaning of the flag, but the perception people are developing of that image. It is a self perpetuating cycle. People claim its racist, so then people who believe this push this belief onto others, then those who don't believe this or who are racist both start using the image more for their own purposes and every time it is used, even without racist intent, it is believed to be racist. On top of this, when someone like Roof comes along and does use it as a symbol of racism, those who pushed this before say "look, see, its racist because this guy used it when he committed a racist act and he said/implied it was a symbol of his racism", without realizing that others don't use it for that same purpose.

I have all the seasons and movies of Dukes of Hazzard. It is definitely not racist (not the series at the least, nor the movies that star that cast, and the other few movies seem to either make fun of them or are more of a prequel). Most of those who criticize the Dukes of Hazzard have never actually watched the old show (although they may have watched the movie which was nothing like the show, more like a satire of it in fact). Like this guy:

Is 'Dukes of Hazzard' Really Racist?

One of the reasons you know he didn't watch the show is because he claims that they were continuing to break the law and even running moonshine. They might have ran moonshine about 3 times (and I'm probably overestimating here) knowingly during the entire series and generally those times were for some very good purpose (such as some neighbor or friend needed money and there was some way to get it quickly by running the shine). The boys had been in jail and therefore could not own guns (they used bows and arrows, strapped occasionally with dynamite), but had been convicted of running shine much earlier in the show, and Uncle Jesse had signed an agreement with the government to stop making and running moonshine in exchange for lighter sentences for the cousins. It was a major plotpoint in the series because Uncle Jesse was determined to not break his agreement for any reason less than extremely appointment (like money needed immediately to save someone farm or life). They respected the black sheriff in the next county over because he wasn't corrupt, unlike their own county's sheriff and county commissioner. The main laws they broke were speeding.

roguenuke said:

The main thing it represents is rebellion, hence the name "the rebel flag". Viewing it as a symbol of racism is a new development for most people (sort of like the noise thing). .

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It's not a "new development" for "most people". The flag has ALWAYS been viewed as a "symbol of racism" because it is a "symbol of racism." It is literally a symbol of a treasonous government that fought to keep black people of slaves. That symbol was then used by the descendants of those slavery defenders to terrorize black people in the south by committing hate crimes and enacting Jim Crow.

The only thing that's "new" is people pretending that the Confederate flag hasn't always been a symbol of racist trash.

ThePlayDrive said:

It's not a "new development" for "most people". The flag has ALWAYS been viewed as a "symbol of racism" because it is a "symbol of racism." It is literally a symbol of a treasonous government that fought to keep black people of slaves. That symbol was then used by the descendants of those slavery defenders to terrorize black people in the south by committing hate crimes and enacting Jim Crow.

The only thing that's "new" is people pretending that the Confederate flag hasn't always been a symbol of racist trash.

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Do you even know where the rebel flag came from when it comes to the Civil War or why that particular state broke away? It wasn't because of slavery. They basically didn't want to send troops to the Union Army and that was the push that got them into the War, Lincoln demanding troops. I think it is great the North won and we are a whole union (I wouldn't exist if it had gone differently) but the war wasn't that simple, and neither is the reasons people fly the confederate flag. There have been plenty of people who flew it in the name of racism or segregation or other such things, but there have been just as many or more who have flown it in the name of rebellion or Southern heritage, which to them had no racial meaning at all.

roguenuke said:

Seriously? So the Dukes of Hazard were racists? There are just so many people who don't see it that way. There are some who use it as a symbol of racism, but the same is true for many different flags and emblems.

I'll admit that some use it to tout modern states rights, but many of those think segregation during the Civil Rights Era was wrong and shouldn't come back. They don't see that as a legitimate states rights issue now.

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There are hundreds, if not thousands, of things that people could use to represent "southern heritage". People who have chosen a flag that has, since the Civil War, been used by avowed white supremacists know exactly what they're doing. All this stuff about "so many people don't see it that way" is bull****. Most of the people who use it today may not want slavery or Jim Crow, but they have their own modern form of racism. You know, the type of racism that has allowed Donald Trump to flourish as presidential candidate as he promises to "make America great again." Hm. I wonder which period of American history Donald Trump and his Confederate flag waving supporters want "again." :roll:

ThePlayDrive said:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of things that people could use to represent "southern heritage". People who have chosen a flag that has, since the Civil War, been used by avowed white supremacists know exactly what they're doing. All this stuff about "so many people don't see it that way" is bull****. Most of the people who use it today may not want slavery or Jim Crow, but they have their own modern form of racism. You know, the type of racism that has allowed Donald Trump to flourish as presidential candidate as he promises to "make America great again." Hm. I wonder which period of American history Donald Trump and his Confederate flag waving supporters want "again." :roll:

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This is you assuming other people's intentions. The very good example is Dukes of Hazzard, which many people in my generation grew up on and there was nothing racist about that show at all, nor about the Dukes. One symbol cannot make a person racist, their actions make them racist.

roguenuke said:

Do you even know where the rebel flag came from when it comes to the Civil War or why that particular state broke away? It wasn't because of slavery. They basically didn't want to send troops to the Union Army and that was the push that got them into the War, Lincoln demanding troops. I think it is great the North won and we are a whole union (I wouldn't exist if it had gone differently) but the war wasn't that simple, and neither is the reasons people fly the confederate flag. There have been plenty of people who flew it in the name of racism or segregation or other such things, but there have been just as many or more who have flown it in the name of rebellion or Southern heritage, which to them had no racial meaning at all.

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I know all about the history of the Confederate flag. I also know all about people like you cherry picking that history to pretend that it isn't a symbol of racism. I'm still trying to figure out why people in 2016 are actually trying to pretend that any Confederate flag, whether it was a general flag or one initially used by Virginia armies alone, wasn't about defending white supremacy from the outset. It's nuts that people like you are still doing this.

Also, isn't it funny that the VAST MAJORITY of people who use the Confederate flag to represent their "Southern heritage" are white? I wonder why just as many black Southerners don't use it as a symbol of their heritage? I wonder why so many BLACK southerners were calling for it to come down after the Charleston massacre? Strange if it's just a matter of southern pride. Seems like ALL southerners were EQUALLY want to fly the flag if it were just an issue of pride.

I agree that "just as many people have flown it in the name of rebellion or Southern heritage". They're flying it in the name of rebelling against racial progress and the Southern heritage of treating non-white people like ****.

roguenuke said:

This is you assuming other people's intentions.

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Actually, it's me recognizing the history of the Confederate flag and applying that history to the present. You should try it instead of burying your head in the sand.

The very good example is Dukes of Hazzard, which many people in my generation grew up on and there was nothing racist about that show at all, nor about the Dukes. One symbol cannot make a person racist, their actions make them racist.

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The Dukes of Hazzard is a useless example. It was fictional television show. I'm talking about real people. I would be curious to read an in depth interview with the creators of the show about their views on race, racism and the Confederacy.

ThePlayDrive said:

I know all about the history of the Confederate flag. I also know all about people like you cherry picking that history to pretend that it isn't a symbol of racism. I'm still trying to figure out why people in 2016 are actually trying to pretend that any Confederate flag, whether it was a general flag or one initially used by Virginia armies alone, wasn't about defending white supremacy from the outset. It's nuts that people like you are still doing this.

Also, isn't it funny that the VAST MAJORITY of people who use the Confederate flag to represent their "Southern heritage" are white? I wonder why just as many black Southerners don't use it as a symbol of their heritage? I wonder why so many BLACK southerners were calling for it to come down after the Charleston massacre? Strange if it's just a matter of southern pride. Seems like ALL southerners were EQUALLY want to fly the flag if it were just an issue of pride.

I agree that "just as many people have flown it in the name of rebellion or Southern heritage". They're flying it in the name of rebelling against racial progress and the Southern heritage of treating non-white people like ****.

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Bold: For some reason that bold part reminded me of this video...

Personally I think the flag of the state of Oregon should be banned in entirety as a symbol of bigotry, after all Oregon holds the dubious distinction of being the only state were self identifying mbers of the Ku Klux Klan got a majority in state government in the 20th century

EMNofSeattle said:

Personally I think the flag of the state of Oregon should be banned in entirety as a symbol of bigotry, after all Oregon holds the dubious distinction of being the only state were self identifying mbers of the Ku Klux Klan got a majority in state government in the 20th century

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Really? That is not a good thing IMHO

ThePlayDrive said:

Actually, it's me recognizing the history of the Confederate flag and applying that history to the present. You should try it instead of burying your head in the sand.

The Dukes of Hazzard is a useless example. It was fictional television show. I'm talking about real people. I would be curious to read an in depth interview with the creators of the show about their views on race, racism and the Confederacy.

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I don't think the Dukes of Hazzard is a useless example. I grew up on that show also. I LOVED it. It was about a family that did the right thing no matter what the corrupt law said. And if you watch the show you don't really need to "wonder" about the views of the creators were on race. It shows through the show itself on their views.

As for how the confederate flag appears to me, the first time I saw that symbol was on the Dukes of Hazzard's the General Lee. It was simply a symbol for rebellion against corrupt cops and politicians. I still view it that way. And it doesn't matter to me what others view it as. If they want to consider me racist for flying it that's fine be me also. I know the truth. However when they start to influence where its shown and how its shown that to me is disrespectful. Something that they should know about considering that is what they're complaining about the most, it being disrespectful. But I guess disrespect is only a one way street and the "other side" has no right to feel disrespected. Cause if the "other side" voices such sentiments they're labeled as racist and ostracized as much as possible. Doesn't matter what their true reasons for liking the flag is.

winston53660 said:

Really? That is not a good thing IMHO

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Yep, a klansman from California named William Powell settled in Southern Oregon In 1921, to the best of our knowledge they never Lynched anyone, and they didn't really run a racial platform, they ran a populist semi socialist platform. They played on this trust of the government, and pro isolationist sentiment following World War I, and of course blamed it our problems on Jews and Catholics.

They got a majority of the House of Representatives in 1922, then a series of scandals involving corruption, and party infighting had them all kicked out the next election.