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a sad day

Chomsky said:
"While General Tso's is best known as American Chinese food, its fame has seen some Hunanese chefs embrace the recipe."

Now isn't that something?
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As is Delligatti's wonder now found in roadside Spanish bodegas and a part of the local food culture. ;)
 
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Rest in peace.
 
Chomsky said:
"While General Tso's is best known as American Chinese food, its fame has seen some Hunanese chefs embrace the recipe."

Now isn't that something?
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There's an authentic versions of sweet and sour dishes too. They aren't covered in gleaming red sugar sauce though.
 
joG said:
And in the same week in which Jim Delligatti died too. Two pillars of modern food culture leaving the field to the vegans at the same time.
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On a related note:

Was discussing Ray Kroc this weekend with friends. His genius was not just inventing modern franchising and production-line food, but that his original idea was to call all the franchises back-in after 20 years. The original contracts were for 20 years, he attempted to take the franchises back, but it all got tied-up in court in the late '70's when the franchisees sued. After many years of wrangling, MCDonald's Inc was limited to some minority percentage as the max number of corporate stores.

But Kroc's original intentions (unkown to others), was to not renew the franchises and essentially have others build him an empire off their sweat & capital!

BTW - His first hire in the '50's was part-time, a Nortwestern University engineering student, as a secretary/bookeeper. He couldn't pay her a competitive salary, so as he grew he eventually offered to cut her in for a small percentage of the stock to convince her to leave engineering school - I seem to recall 1/2 a point.

I was reading the newspaper in the '80's, and lo & behold! She was getting to retirement age, and cashed-in! I seem to remember she got around $120M (in 1980's dollars).

Not bad for what started-out as a part-time college gig, eh?

(actually, she stayed on for two decades)
 
Chomsky said:
On a related note:

Was discussing Ray Kroc this weekend with friends. His genius was not just inventing modern franchising and production-line food, but that his original idea was to call all the franchises back-in after 20 years. The original contracts were for 20 years, he attempted to take the franchises back, but it all got tied-up in court in the late '70's when the franchisees sued. After many years of wrangling, MCDonald's Inc was limited to some minority percentage as the max number of corporate stores.

But Kroc's original intentions (unkown to others), was to not renew the franchises and essentially have others build him an empire off their sweat & capital!

BTW - His first hire in the '50's was part-time, a Nortwestern University engineering student, as a secretary/bookeeper. He couldn't pay her a competitive salary, so as he grew he eventually offered to cut her in for a small percentage of the stock to convince her to leave engineering school - I seem to recall 1/2 a point.

I was reading the newspaper in the '80's, and lo & behold! She was getting to retirement age, and cashed-in! I seem to remember she got around $120M (in 1980's dollars).

Not bad for what started-out as a part-time college gig, eh?

(actually, she stayed on for two decades)
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Not bad for as part timer bonuses go.

And to think! He might never have employed her at $15 an hour. ;)
 
Chomsky said:
On a related note:

Was discussing Ray Kroc this weekend with friends. His genius was not just inventing modern franchising and production-line food, but that his original idea was to call all the franchises back-in after 20 years. The original contracts were for 20 years, he attempted to take the franchises back, but it all got tied-up in court in the late '70's when the franchisees sued. After many years of wrangling, MCDonald's Inc was limited to some minority percentage as the max number of corporate stores.

But Kroc's original intentions (unkown to others), was to not renew the franchises and essentially have others build him an empire off their sweat & capital!

BTW - His first hire in the '50's was part-time, a Nortwestern University engineering student, as a secretary/bookeeper. He couldn't pay her a competitive salary, so as he grew he eventually offered to cut her in for a small percentage of the stock to convince her to leave engineering school - I seem to recall 1/2 a point.

I was reading the newspaper in the '80's, and lo & behold! She was getting to retirement age, and cashed-in! I seem to remember she got around $120M (in 1980's dollars).

Not bad for what started-out as a part-time college gig, eh?

(actually, she stayed on for two decades)
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That's an interesting story Chomsky. I was a supplier to the McDonald's system for about 20 years.

I'm fairly well acquainted with the history of the company, but I've never heard anything about Ray wanting to take back franchise properties. I've also never heard the result of this issue from the 70's resulted in corporate limitations on the number of company stores it could operate.

I wondering where this came from?
 
ocean515 said:
That's an interesting story Chomsky. I was a supplier to the McDonald's system for about 20 years.

I'm fairly well acquainted with the history of the company, but I've never heard anything about Ray wanting to take back franchise properties. I've also never heard the result of this issue from the 70's resulted in corporate limitations on the number of company stores it could operate.

I wondering where this came from?
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14uhroo.gif
 
truthatallcost said:
There's an authentic versions of sweet and sour dishes too. They aren't covered in gleaming red sugar sauce though.
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General Tso's is dumbed down chicken mcnugget invention created to please unsophisticated american tastes. It's the equivalent of a baloney sandwich with ketchup on white bread.
 
Militant_Vegan_ said:
General Tso's is dumbed down chicken mcnugget invention created to please unsophisticated american tastes. It's the equivalent of a baloney sandwich with ketchup on white bread.
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General Tso chicken is much better than any vegan dish ever created.
 
ocean515 said:
That's an interesting story Chomsky. I was a supplier to the McDonald's system for about 20 years.

I'm fairly well acquainted with the history of the company, but I've never heard anything about Ray wanting to take back franchise properties. I've also never heard the result of this issue from the 70's resulted in corporate limitations on the number of company stores it could operate.

I wondering where this came from?
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In my case: Stuff I gleaned from Chicago newspapers in the 80's, and from a book written by, I believe, his lawyer partner.

I've always been fascinating by Ray Kroc and the empire he built.

I've also locally run into interesting tidbits from McDonalds' corporate people that get into the local newspapers and business rags. A corporate R.E. guy once said McDonalds was really in the real-estate business, and they owned (paid for by their franchisers) more desirable real estate throughout the world than any other private business entity save for the Catholic Church (or was it "even more than the Catholic Church" - I don't exactly remember). So his claim was they were actually a real estate empire.

Then there was the Burger King guy I once met through a friend in the late 80's who claimed that early in BK's expansion phase during the 60's & 70's when they were badly trailing McDonald's in locations, rather than do their own individual new technical analysis for determining locations, they would simply scout the highest revenue MickeyDee locations, and plop a BK down nearby - saving themselves tons of work & money! He even asked: "Haven't you noticed where there's a BK, there's often a McDonalds nearby"?

So who knows? My memory of something I read decades ago might be a little less than perfect, and maybe some of this stuff is PR or urban legend. But it's interesting stuff.

But as to the lawsuit(s) prohibiting Corporate ownership of expiring initial franchise agreements, I'd assume there's gotta' be records. I seem to recall reading about this stuff in the very late 70's or ca. 1980, which would be the right time-frame for the initial 20 year franchises to come-up for renewal and end-up in a period of litigation.
 
Chomsky said:
In my case: Stuff I gleaned from Chicago newspapers in the 80's, and from a book written by, I believe, his lawyer partner.

I've always been fascinating by Ray Kroc and the empire he built.

I've also locally run into interesting tidbits from McDonalds' corporate people that get into the local newspapers and business rags. A corporate R.E. guy once said McDonalds was really in the real-estate business, and they owned (paid for by their franchisers) more desirable real estate throughout the world than any other private business entity save for the Catholic Church (or was it "even more than the Catholic Church" - I don't exactly remember). So his claim was they were actually a real estate empire.

Then there was the Burger King guy I once met through a friend in the late 80's who claimed that early in BK's expansion phase during the 60's & 70's when they were badly trailing McDonald's in locations, rather than do their own individual new technical analysis for determining locations, they would simply scout the highest revenue MickeyDee locations, and plop a BK down nearby - saving themselves tons of work & money! He even asked: "Haven't you noticed where there's a BK, there's often a McDonalds nearby"?

So who knows? My memory of something I read decades ago might be a little less than perfect, and maybe some of this stuff is PR or urban legend. But it's interesting stuff.

But as to the lawsuit(s) prohibiting Corporate ownership of expiring initial franchise agreements, I'd assume there's gotta' be records. I seem to recall reading about this stuff in the very late 70's or ca. 1980, which would be the right time-frame for the initial 20 year franchises to come-up for renewal and end-up in a period of litigation.
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It is rarely a good idea to bet against Chomsky's brain:

Under this plan, McDonald's would scout out sites and sign twenty-year leases at fixed rates. Franchisees would then pay McDonald's either a minimum rate or a percentage of sales, whichever was greater
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https://www.wiley.com/legacy/products/subject/business/forbes/kroc.html
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It is rarely a good idea to bet against Chomsky's brain:


https://www.wiley.com/legacy/products/subject/business/forbes/kroc.html
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Thanks, Hawkeye!

Check this out:

"Ray Kroc, the founder of McDonald's (NYSE:MCD), once asked a group of MBA students to tell him what business they thought he was in. The hamburger business of course, they told him. No, he replied, "My business is real estate.""

Source: McDonald's Corporation: A Real Estate Empire Financed by French Fries

Through his franchise requirements he essentially gets his franchisees to put up a lump sum down-payment, and then pay carrying costs & profit on the real estate. The franchisees are in effect initially co-purchasers, who then become non-equity renters that relinquish ownership, and instead buy the property for McDonalds Corp! It's absolutely freaking ingenious!

The guy really *was* a genius. The more I found-out about him early in my life, the more I read, the more respect I got for him. Then in the 'George Orwell Year', he was gone!
 
Chomsky said:
Thanks, Hawkeye!

Check this out:

"Ray Kroc, the founder of McDonald's (NYSE:MCD), once asked a group of MBA students to tell him what business they thought he was in. The hamburger business of course, they told him. No, he replied, "My business is real estate.""

Source: McDonald's Corporation: A Real Estate Empire Financed by French Fries

Through his franchise requirements he essentially gets his franchisees to put up a lump sum down-payment, and then pay carrying costs & profit on the real estate. The franchisees are in effect initially co-purchasers, who then become non-equity renters that relinquish ownership, and instead buy the property for McDonalds Corp! It's absolutely freaking ingenious!

The guy really *was* a genius. The more I found-out about him early in my life, the more I read, the more respect I got for him. Then in the 'George Orwell Year', he was gone!
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What impressed me most was how good he was at digging down into the minutiae, his ability to find ways to assure that each store was operating at its best. It did not take long after he died for the company to lose the ability to do that. In the last ten years I would say that only 1/10 big macs has been made right, the fries are not even close to past par even at their best which is rare, and the service is nothing like it used to be. I remember once 1974 or 75 sitting in a store in the Loop marveling at the efficiency of the operation. I was a people watcher and I loved doing that in Chicago, because Rockford you know was much slower and more conservative, plus we did not get the big chains till late in the game, we for instance had Geri's burgers not McD's till very late in the 1960's (edit, I see that I am wrong, but I dont remember seeing a McD's till then) ..... so anyways I watching all the colorful chicago people especially all the blacks cause my side of Rockford had almost none of them...that is why I decided to sit....but as I did I said to myself "damn these people are good"...meaning the employees. I was not even in the business then, I had a paper route, but I noticed, and it made such an impression on me that I can tell you about it now, because I have a little video clip in my brain of me being all amazed, of me getting my socks blown off AGAIN by the big city, which I adored BTW .

I very seldom have even OK customer service at a McD's anymore, it has been rare for going on 25 years. Getting the food made right has been a problem for about as long.
 
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Militant_Vegan_ said:
General Tso's is dumbed down chicken mcnugget invention created to please unsophisticated american tastes. It's the equivalent of a baloney sandwich with ketchup on white bread.
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I've actually never tried it. Have you been to China? It's on my bucket list.
 
truthatallcost said:
I've actually never tried it. Have you been to China? It's on my bucket list.
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maybe you misread it. General Tso's is an invention made for unsophisticated american tastes. In China you would get authentic Chinese food.
Not General Tsos
 
Hawkeye10 said:
What impressed me most was how good he was at digging down into the minutiae, his ability to find ways to assure that each store was operating at its best. It did not take long after he died for the company to lose the ability to do that. In the last ten years I would say that only 1/10 big macs has been made right, the fries are not even close to past par even at their best which is rare, and the service is nothing like it used to be. I remember once 1974 or 75 sitting in a store in the Loop marveling at the efficiency of the operation. I was a people watcher and I loved doing that in Chicago, because Rockford you know was much slower and more conservative, plus we did not get the big chains till late in the game, we for instance had Geri's burgers not McD's till very late in the 1960's, so anyways I watching all the colorful chicago people especially all the blacks cause my side of Rockford had almost none of them...that is why I decided to sit....but as I did I said to myself "damn these people are good"...meaning the employees.

I very seldom have even OK customer service at a McD's anymore, it has been rare for going on 25 years. Getting the food made right has been a problem for about as long.
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You are so right about the minutia!

I don't know if I still got his books around, but the effort he devoted to french fries was amazing. And he was like this with everything. I do believe "God is in the details"!

But funny you mention the Loop during the 70's. One example of Burger King following McDonalds was the MickeeDee on the N.E. corner of Jackson & Wabash, and the BK directly across the street on the W. side of Wabash. This was really common in the 70's, which is why I think the guy telling me the story was legit. The MickeeDee is still there BTW, and is part of the first floor of DePaul University's CompSci building.

Wabash always was one of my favorite streets, due in a large part to Rose Records, Guitar Gallery, Carl Fischer, Lyon & Healy, Wurlitzer, and all the other great music & musical instrument stores on that strip from maybe Adams to most of the way to Congress. I spent a lot of time there jamming & learning as a young guitarist, and it was good to see Buddy Guy putting Legends there in the 80's - even as the music instrument joints were closing-up shop.

But in the early 70's through early 80's, this place was my second home:


Rose Records.jpg

Rose Records B&W.jpg
 
Chomsky said:
You are so right about the minutia!

I don't know if I still got his books around, but the effort he devoted to french fries was amazing. And he was like this with everything. I do believe "God is in the details"!

But funny you mention the Loop during the 70's.
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snip
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As a very young boy and for years I made the trip with my dad in to All Nations hobby at Madison and Wells to look at (and dad buy) O-scale trains, but then we also often went to see some very run down resale jazz/blues record stores that I remember being under or nearly under a freeway...do you have any idea where that might have been? Dad went into only the stores that did jazz/Blues, but there were others, many stores in a few blocks, complete dumps most of them, but man the customers and the owners tended to know everything about music. I liked All-Nations a lot, the record stores not that much, which is why I remember one and not the other.
 
Militant_Vegan_ said:
maybe you misread it. General Tso's is an invention made for unsophisticated american tastes. In China you would get authentic Chinese food.
Not General Tsos
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Ive been to China and Chinese American food is just as good- they taste slightly different, and each has its own unique spin on it.
 
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