Captain's Challenge.....

CaptainCourtesy · 08-14-08, 01:52 AM

Alright folks, I'm going to go out on a limb here and challenge you all to do something. I am going to ask you to restrain yourselves and not act out on this thread.

I am going to be candid, and the heck with the repercussions. There is a major problem going on at DP. And all of us, or nearly all of us are involved. Me, IT, jallman, Jeff, bhkad, 1069, NP, DD, Vader, the Reverend, Hobo, and many others. I am not mentioning names because you are the biggest offenders; the names I mentioned are the ones that come to mind. Notice who's name was first. The partisan attacking on this forum has gotten out of control. I couldn't care less whether you are for Obama or McCain; BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY AT FAULT. You are not saving the world by pointing out irrelevant or minuscule issues; you are acting like a partisan hack, and a baiting fool. You are not doing what's right for America by, blindly, attaching yourself to an ideology; you are acting like an ignorant, closed-minded jerk.

95%+ of the threads in the Election Forum and other forums about Obama and McCain are nothing but A TOTAL WASTE OF BANDWIDTH and if I wouldn't get accused of censorship, I'D FLUSH THEM ALL. One reason I came to DP was because of all the political forums I checked out, the most intelligent people were here. Click any thread in the Election Forum, and my perception is immediately proven wrong.

Extreme partisanship, flat out lying, refusing to listen, bullying, clinging to alarmist, obtuse beliefs even when they have been proven wrong, and just acting ignorant, nasty, and baiting at every turn. This behavior is permeating the forum. And it needs to stop. However, beyond warning/infracting/banning the lot of you, and since that would take me a whole lot of time I do not have, what else can be done? Well...

A couple of weeks ago, another DP member gave me some feedback that I am grateful for. My posting was getting more aggressive, and I was falling into the same trap as many, many others on this forum. I am about the most patient, even keel person on this planet, so if it affecting me, it must be affecting everyone, and y'alls behavior shows me I'm right. So, I have two challenges for you:

1) What do you think is going on at DP? I cannot guarantee that there will be much if any moderator participation, here, but I can guarantee that your comments will be read, if posted without some of the problems I have mentioned above.

2) Think outside your own little box. Take responsibility for being part of the problem with your partisan hackery, your alarmism, your blind followings. Look at the other point of view without blinders on; it doesn't mean you accept it, just means you look at it. TAKE FEEDBACK WHEN IT IS POINTED OUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Be part of the solution. You don't think that DP is analogous to what happens in the US? Think again. It is. And it is extremely apparent.

I have no desire to entertain someone's debate over whether or not they are part of the problem and to what degree. You are. That simple. You want to debate that? You can do so by saying the following: I want to debate how much I am part of the problem, and by doing so, I have decided to continue to be part of the problem. That is the only comment on that issue I will address.

Be part of the solution.

I am certain that there will be some members, perhaps some in the "upper echelon" of DP, that will be very displeased with this post. Oh, well. I can accept the reactions. I cannot accept this to continue without it being addressed.

OK, The ball is now in all of your courts. Let's see what you do.

MC.no.spin · 08-14-08, 02:35 AM

We should do a poll and establish the top offenders. These posters should then be forced to engage in reverse debate upstairs for a week. They can only make posts that are debating for the other side, or completely neutral with complete objectivity towards either party, Sutherland style. Any violation results in total basement humiliation and degradation, no holds barred.

Lerxst · 08-14-08, 08:15 AM

I really have no idea why it got so messy. I think it's hyper reaction for the most part. Extremism begets extremism. The pendulum gets shoved one way with much force and comes right back the other direction unchecked.

But know this, as long as people are upstairs making ignorant or deliberately misleading statements in order to advance their position (and backing them with bullshit evidence and flawed logic) I'll be there to point that out. Deconstructing that stuff is not only fun, it's necessary. I invite anyone to do the same to me if I cross that line.

That said, it goes without saying that I have been engaged in particularly nasty affairs with two posters here and at times my conduct has gotten beyond tasteful or constructive. So I'll take my spanking on this.

Zyphlin · 08-14-08, 09:50 AM

As a note to echo CC's concerns (And agree with him, everyones guilty of it. Even some of the best posters and more even keel on this site get swept up as the flood hits, its infectious).

This isn't just about some moderators being annoyed, or a few loan reports. We've had new members flat out say they were hesitant to even join the forum because the majority of it just seemed to be non-stop partisan propoganda and no actual debate. We've had long time posters here repeatedly pointing out that all the top seems like now in many forums if an aggressive, sarcastic, non-stop back and forth by people on both sides being completely hyperpartisan.

Its an election season, and partisanship typically becomes stronger during these times, but its getting to the point of absurdity and its damaging the forum. DP is meant to be a place where people, of all parts of the political spectrum, can gather together to discuss and debate issues civily and intelligently. Its not meant to be a partisan warfield where we make it our duties to sarcastically run down or reply to everyone we disagree with, or flood the forum with every non-issue event of the day. Its not a place to go to just say "I'm write, 100%, there's nothing that can sway me from it, and as such I'm going to yell it over and over again". That's not debating, that's just getting up on a soap box and exploiting the fact that the good people of this forum are here to read posts hoping ot find actual DEBATE, not to just be preached at.

When it was shown that its starting to affect people even thinking to join our forum, that's when it really hit how big of a problem this is.

1069 · 08-14-08, 09:55 AM

Quote:

am going to be candid, and **** the repercussions. There is a major problem going on at DP. And all of us, or nearly all of us are involved. Me, IT, jallman, Jeff, bhkad, 1069, NP, DD, Vader, the Reverend, Hobo, and many others

What have I done?
I've done my very best to contribute only relevant input and avoid hyperpartisanship.
I already suspect that my candidate's a shoo-in. And even if he weren't, I like McCain a lot better than I like the current fundy-ocracy. So either way, things get better.
I'm not the least bit hostile.

danarhea · 08-14-08, 12:06 PM

I am not sure that anything should be done about the rancor here, other than to reinforce the rules about personal attacks, etc.

This IS politics, after all, and this year, as much as any other year, people have very, very strong feelings, which of course, are going to be reflected in their postings. This is not unlike 2004, in which Kerry was swiftboated, or 2000, when McCain was destroyed by the "black baby" allegations. People in this forum, whether Democratic or Republican, are going to have feelings too, and they are going to use what is available to express those feelings. Don't blame the members here. Blame the talking heads who tell the public these things - The talking heads, whose maturity is that of not a baby, but a fetus - The talking heads, whose hatred of anyone and anything is just as anti American as hippies spitting on troops coming home from Vietnam, or KKK'ers lynching black people who wanted to vote. The problem here is not really the members, but the material that is available to them.

As for the members themselves?

1) bhkad - Sure, he hates Obama, that is plain to see, so he pushes his view as hard as he can. But he is not really such a bad guy. I mean, today, he posted in the thread about the Democrat getting shot that we are Americans first. THAT was a great statement.

2) Mc.No.Spin - He and I have a long history of bashing each other,I found out that he has one hell of a good sense of humor. He has accepted practical jokes and laughed at himself. He has pull a few jokes on others too. So Mc.No.Spin realizes that political forums are primarily for having fun. Bingo - I think he is right.

3) Navy Pride - He and I don't see eye to eye on anything, but he has said some good things about me, and I was the first to defend him when he was going to leave. He and I both see good in each other, despite him calling me his "liberal friend" all the time, and me telling him that he had an anchor dropped in his head. LOL.

I can't blame the three that I mentioned for the problems that supposed to exist in this forum, but the way I see it. There are no real problems here - Not like compared to other boards. I am a member in other forums, and frankly, some of them are quite sick. One forum has a member called "Billy Bob", who has an emoticon he uses that depicts a stereotypical black man being shot in the head with a pistol. Compared to that, this board is quite tame.

If you want to moderate this board more, I would be against that. The reason? The best moderation on any board is free and open discussion. If someone gets out of line in his or her arguments, he or she will be slapped down in no time. If I hadn't turned bhkad into road kill in this thread, somebody else would have. And it is the same with anybody else in the forum. Most of us have done it, and most of us have been embarrassed by being slapped down hard. I am not immune either. Ask RightInNYC about how he slapped me down a couple of times. My ass still smarts from one of his beatings. LOL.

So, in the end, I wouldn't worry about it. Moderators, of course, should intervene when personal attacks are being made, but other than that, I would say let it continue as it has. Just like in the real world, nothing can be better for this forum than the free marketplace of information.

I hope this response has been helpful, and I beg of you - Please do not try and turn this forum into an ant farm. It would be most detrimental thing you could ever do here.

Finally, lets all have fun.

jallman · 08-14-08, 12:53 PM

I know, for myself, I get bored when the topics turn to minutiae that have no relevance. Then it's just fun to pick fights with people to keep myself entertained. And there are certain people that I know will fight with me if I pick a fight with them.

On a more serious note though, I do notice that people become a little more obtuse during the election season. Suddenly, the forum schisms into teams and the atmosphere becomes one of team cheering instead of discussion. I don't know if any of you have ever been to a Raiders home game, but it takes on that atmosphere to a T.

independent_thinker2002 · 08-14-08, 01:37 PM

Yes, I am part of the problem. I can attribute my partisanship to a couple factors.

1) I have succumbed to the two party system. I believe in third parties and do want them to flourish. But they aren't viable at this point and would probably not be too effective.

2) Unfortunately, hyperpartisanship is what works in America. It's not intellectual. It's not honest. It's effective. It's sad. But I have had the attitude that I will be damned if I let the practices of the last 8 years continue. That's my partisan perspective. I think that this election it's worse than usual.

As CC has pointed out, this is an American issue. It's not unique to DP. America, being an instant gratification society, makes us result oriented. "Whatever it takes" attitudes permeate our society as we continue the live by the ends justifying the means.

It's silly season as there isn't much new info coming out about the candidates right now. This is on top of the longest Presidential campaing in history. I think many are suffering campaign fatigue. Many people have chosen sides and are addressing every single attack.

I wish intellectuality honesty was what won elections. Sadly it doesn't provide desired results. It's all about creating a perception of your opponent regardless of what the truth may be.

Once the baiting has started, it snowballs. People aren't backing down. A lot of people look to the last two Presidential elections have left many of us believing those tactics work. At least when they aren't addressed. The last two elections have shown us what happens when the intellectual ignores baseless attacks. They look weak. You can't shake the "weak" label without putting up a fight.

I will clean up my act. I would also like the mods to step up and lead discussions. I know people get busy. I also know that opportunities are missed by inaction by some mods. They don't have to moderate. It's an interesting phenomenon that they stop posting after being a mod for a year or so. I would like to see mods posting as members more. That might help clean things up.

I don't think we need to identify worst offenders and finger point. What CC has requested is that we look at ourselves and see how we each can fix these problems and make this place better. Let's take some personal responsibility for our actions.

Zyphlin · 08-14-08, 02:15 PM

I do have a quick question, to BOTH sides...

Do you think posting on Debate Politics about many of the things found in the election forums, and the discussions that go on there, are actually going to sway anybody?

Do you believe the people reading those threads are seeing most of those responses and posts everyone makes and going "Hmm, that is going to make me vote for X" or "Vote against Y"?

IT brings up the point that he's bought into the fact that this is how elections are won in America, and he doesn't want another 8 years of these policies. And you know, I can understand that even if I don't agree....

But what does that have to do with DP? Yes, that thing may be true in the real world or the masses...but what do you think sways people more often here, at this site? If you say "actual legitimate debate" over "spamming of non-issues, constant insults and joking, and pure partisan talking points"....then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

I'm actually a prime example. Not an example of someone who does a great job of doign the actual legitimate debate to pull people to a side...but a person, on this forum, that gravitated to actual legitimate debate over partisan/over the top non-issue talking points and chose a candidates.

For a long time in the republicn primary I was undecided. I waffled primarily between Romney and Huckabee for the most part. The outside fringers like Hunter and Tancrado didn't really interest me, and Ron Paul seemed a loon to me. Then suddenly an odd thing started happening.

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

2) A number of intelligent Ron Paul supporters, honestly wanting to debate, tried to present his ideas.

Now, while I didn't agree with everything Ron Paul thinks...espicially on Iraq....I was began to be swayed to some of his issues. Despite my earlier thoughts on Paul, these reasoned arguments won me over enough to go, research him, and found that I liked him. I ended up casting my ballot in virginia for Paul, despite knowing he'd likely not win, because it felt like he was the right candidate.

Its a wonderful thing if part of your goal on this forum is to perhaps win others to your side. Hell, that's the purpose of debate sometimes. But, as was said multiple times during the recent "McCain Ad's" threads...what works with the masses of the American Public doesn't necessarily apply to people actively involved and researching politics. Most anyone on this forum knows what hte immediete new political issues of today are...I ran into a woman last week that said she was voting for Hillary for President, having no clue she was out.

Want to win people to your side...rise above the partisan stuff and try for some actual factual civil debate. Don't just say "Obama's an empty suit", explain exactly why and how and why those things are bad. Don't just say "Obama's not an empty suit", explain his positions and why they're feasible and good.

danarhea · 08-14-08, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zyphlin

I do have a quick question, to BOTH sides...

Do you think posting on Debate Politics about many of the things found in the election forums, and the discussions that go on there, are actually going to sway anybody?

Do you believe the people reading those threads are seeing most of those responses and posts everyone makes and going "Hmm, that is going to make me vote for X" or "Vote against Y"?

IT brings up the point that he's bought into the fact that this is how elections are won in America, and he doesn't want another 8 years of these policies. And you know, I can understand that even if I don't agree....

But what does that have to do with DP? Yes, that thing may be true in the real world or the masses...but what do you think sways people more often here, at this site? If you say "actual legitimate debate" over "spamming of non-issues, constant insults and joking, and pure partisan talking points"....then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

I'm actually a prime example. Not an example of someone who does a great job of doign the actual legitimate debate to pull people to a side...but a person, on this forum, that gravitated to actual legitimate debate over partisan/over the top non-issue talking points and chose a candidates.

For a long time in the republicn primary I was undecided. I waffled primarily between Romney and Huckabee for the most part. The outside fringers like Hunter and Tancrado didn't really interest me, and Ron Paul seemed a loon to me. Then suddenly an odd thing started happening.

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

2) A number of intelligent Ron Paul supporters, honestly wanting to debate, tried to present his ideas.

Now, while I didn't agree with everything Ron Paul thinks...espicially on Iraq....I was began to be swayed to some of his issues. Despite my earlier thoughts on Paul, these reasoned arguments won me over enough to go, research him, and found that I liked him. I ended up casting my ballot in virginia for Paul, despite knowing he'd likely not win, because it felt like he was the right candidate.

Its a wonderful thing if part of your goal on this forum is to perhaps win others to your side. Hell, that's the purpose of debate sometimes. But, as was said multiple times during the recent "McCain Ad's" threads...what works with the masses of the American Public doesn't necessarily apply to people actively involved and researching politics. Most anyone on this forum knows what hte immediete new political issues of today are...I ran into a woman last week that said she was voting for Hillary for President, having no clue she was out.

Want to win people to your side...rise above the partisan stuff and try for some actual factual civil debate. Don't just say "Obama's an empty suit", explain exactly why and how and why those things are bad. Don't just say "Obama's not an empty suit", explain his positions and why they're feasible and good.

You know, while you moderators can gig people for infractions, I believe another function you could perform would be to enter into discussions and ask questions, or otherwise make statements that would help stimulate discussion, rather than back and forth bashing.

You have a mod box at your disposal, which you use to issue warnings. Why not have a another box? Instead of a white background, it could have a light blue (or some other color) background. You could use this box not to issue warnings, but to ask questions, or to ask members who post "Obama is an empty suit", for instance, to expand on the statement, and explain specifics as to why he feels that way. Then you would be truly moderating things, just as a moderator at a public debate does. Not sure how much extra work that would entail, but it could be done. I believe that something of this nature would be very beneficial to the forum at large. You guys run the board, and adding another function to your job duties that helps stimulate discussion would be great, IMHO.