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Banning the "Question?"

Are questions a personal attack?

  • yes

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • no

    Votes: 8 88.9%
  • Total voters
    9
=donsutherland1;1057615912

Missypea,

If you believe an individual has posted content that is worthy of an infraction, you should most definitely report the post or PM one of the moderators. All members are subject to DP's rules.
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Yes, you're right. I very rarely use the report button. I honestly can't remember the last time I used it. I've just never felt comfortable using it. It makes me feel like I'm tattling or asking for protection.

It's a good tool, I really need to work on getting past my own prejudices and begin using it as it was meant to be used.

As you properly noted, a lot of what goes on behind the scenes is not publicized. Policy and rules-related discussion among the moderators can be vigorous with frank and sincere exchanges of views.
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I appreciate the need for that privacy, Don and I don't begrudge the use of it. I see the need for the frank exchange of views behind closed doors.

One has to understand that the moderators work together as a team. Publicizing any actual or perceived differences of view would make it possible for individuals to attempt to exploit those actual or perceived differences among the moderators. That kind of environment could make it more difficult for the moderators to function as a team, carry out reasonable enforcement of the rules, or inhibit honest discussion among the moderators.
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Yes, I see your point here too. The more I think about it, my frustration about what happened with Dana and what has not happened to other people is at the core of this. I'll own that.

All said, if you have concerns or other feedback, I always welcome PMs from DP's members and value their opinions. The other moderators do, as well. We understand the need to foster and sustain a welcoming environment that is conducive to wide-ranging, diverse, and robust debate and discussion.

Best wishes.[/LEFT]
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Thank you, Don.

I am curious about what the mod's plans are regarding this new “civil” phase. As much as I appreciate a discussion over a ranting, belittling, or foul mouthed post....I shudder to think that the mods are going to continue on with gigging posters, such as Dana, for a such a benign post.

What is happening? Is this a trial period or is it the beginning of a new style of moderation? Do you have tools in place to measure your progress towards a goal?

What are you measuring? What is the desired outcome?

What safety nets do you have in place to prevent over-moderation?

Maybe if the board had some information we could all feel a little bit better about what's happening....at the least, be better informed.

Thanks for listening.
 
missypea said:
For me, this has less and less to do with Dana's specific post and thread. It has more to do with moderators letting "one of their own" get away with absolute garbage that someone else would have been suspended for. I'm not even talking about individual posts. I'm talking about multiple posts over the course of time.
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As we've said over and over again, if you think something violates the rules, report it. You might perceive us as being uniformly biased toward or against particular posters, but I can assure you that's not the case.

There are two posters on this board that have an "in" with the mods. The only way they could have avoided suspension is because of that "in".
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Hilarious, I'd love to know who they are. I hate all you bastards equally. ;)

I realize that members don't see everything that goes on behind the scenes, but if you're going to come out and cry foul for a reaction it would be nice to see some mods come out and say, "lets talk about what caused the problem"
Heck, it would be nice to have even ONE mod come out and agree with Dana's POV. That not one single mod did that really makes me wonder. One mod got attacked and you all closed ranks instead of looking at the problem as individuals.......heck just instead of looking at the problem itself.

That's what it feels like to me right now.

The problem still exists and in large part the blame lay at your door. Tell me what are you (mods) going to do to make DP a better place?
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Listen to the suggestions of the members, as we always do. If you look at the announcement forum, you'll see that the mods have made literally dozens of changes to the way the forum has been run during the years I've been here. Where do you think we got the impetus for those changes? This forum is nothing if not a constantly shifting reflection of what its membership desires. When people complain, we listen and take action. While there are plenty of members who have no problem bringing up their concerns in public like this, there are just as many who come to us one on one with their concerns and questions. We take all those things into consideration when deciding what to do in the future, and do our best to try to represent everyone's views fairly. We can't please everyone, but we'll always listen.

We're all ears.
 
RightinNYC said:
Listen to the suggestions of the members, as we always do. If you look at the announcement forum, you'll see that the mods have made literally dozens of changes to the way the forum has been run during the years I've been here. Where do you think we got the impetus for those changes? This forum is nothing if not a constantly shifting reflection of what its membership desires. When people complain, we listen and take action. While there are plenty of members who have no problem bringing up their concerns in public like this, there are just as many who come to us one on one with their concerns and questions. We take all those things into consideration when deciding what to do in the future, and do our best to try to represent everyone's views fairly. We can't please everyone, but we'll always listen.

We're all ears.
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I realize that you can't please everyone and I appreciate that you're listening. I'm interested in listening too.......(please see my last post)....so what is happening?

Right now I'm interested in being all ears. You have the floor.
 
Billo_Really said:
Just imagine how free our press would be if the government made it a crime to ask certain questions.
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Just think how surprised we are going to be if we ban every offensive person from public discourse, before spending some time trying to find out what they mean or trying to change them once we know.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.” (Samuel Johnson)

Removing some words from our discourse, especially questions, is just as bad a refuge.

I would expect someone from Jenin's world to say some very offensive things. Although I am for hanging terrorists by the neck until dead after they surrender and before they complete their mission, and am against negotiating, I would like to let them know what I think, and I would like to hear from them too. I would like to have a chance to debate them.

I am really IGNORANT of the history of the questioner, so I cannot really defend them, but I never even got to debate them before someone figured they were crap to be flushed like in a war. Did anybody ask if they had WMD before they flushed them? {a little humor}

When the word "Ignorant" becomes a dirty word, the offended recipient had better be G-d.

Recruit for hate, never debate, silence is fate?
 
missypea said:
I am curious about what the mod's plans are regarding this new “civil” phase. As much as I appreciate a discussion over a ranting, belittling, or foul mouthed post....I shudder to think that the mods are going to continue on with gigging posters, such as Dana, for a such a benign post.

What is happening? Is this a trial period or is it the beginning of a new style of moderation? Do you have tools in place to measure your progress towards a goal?

What are you measuring? What is the desired outcome?

What safety nets do you have in place to prevent over-moderation?

Maybe if the board had some information we could all feel a little bit better about what's happening....at the least, be better informed.

Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

Missypea,

I believe the moderators' statement (http://www.debatepolitics.com/annou...-poster-recent-incivility.html#post1057586116) as posted by RightinNYC concerning the banning of Champs well reflects the civility issue. In part, that statement reads:

This is a forum based on civility. Things may get heated at times, but above all we must understand that we are here together as a community. We must all remember to focus on the politics and avoid being pulled into the personal. This community aspect is destroyed and trust is ruined when members take it upon themselves to run off and harass posters they do not like or agree with.

The emphasis is on limiting situations where members are harrassed to the point that they are driven off the message board. Such a situation would not only undermine debate and discussion but also inhibit DP's growth potential.

In terms of maintaining a reasonably civil atmosphere, Rule 7a states, "In the interest of maintaining civility, profanity is strongly discouraged here at Debate Politics." That rule has not been changed.

As always, members who have concerns can feel free to contact the moderators as per Rule 6a. Members should not hesitate to contact the moderators with suggestions or concerns. Such input is invaluable in helping make DP a better place for everyone. It can also serve as a "safety net" of the kind that you are inquiring about, as all feedback is given serious consideration.

Best wishes.​
 
DivineComedy said:
Just think how surprised we are going to be if we ban every offensive person from public discourse, before spending some time trying to find out what they mean or trying to change them once we know.
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DivineComedy,

There is no campaign underway to "ban every offensive person from public discourse." The moderators understand that passions can become heated at times, especially during the intense political campaign season that is continuing to evolve toward the U.S. Presidential Election in November.​
 
donsutherland1 said:
The moderators understand that passions can become heated at times
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That is a relief, there for a minute I thought the pod people had taken over.

body_snatchers.jpg


"Other side effects include abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, loss of appetite, breast enlargement, skin rash, blurred vision, and mental changes."

Uh, and irritability kind of like goes with the breast enlargement. {Not that I am saying anything sexist against Hillary, this is not hate speech; I would rather see her breasts in the White House than mine.}

Oh, and forgive me if I rack up a few "liberal" thank yous for changing direction during the second coming of Cotter Pin. I am trying to get my mind right for CETA workers sweeping leaves in the forest, and hoping they tag us at the beach so we will not get sunburn. You remember Joseph don't you? Not to mention the loss of a certain country when a certain person becomes the "hope of the entire world." {That was creepy} “…our Nation is at peace with the world.” We are really going to get there this time...Pigs can FLY!

PS. Don't panic, it is not a flashback, it's the exquisite torture of Hell on earth.
 
I would like to thank the Orwellian Jew Burner for his sick sense of humor. Not only does it match mine, but it sounds like a bit from Sam Kinison.
 
missypea said:
These are my thoughts.

If you say: Did your mammy nurse you before you started eating watermelon?

You're safe

If you say: Wouldn't you agree that only a moron thinks (enter subject)....just look at what we've got in Washington?

Then you are clearly being uncivil........so watch it buster!
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1069 said:
People who think that are morons. But only if they live in Washington.
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Moderator's Warning:
From the notes under describing the Basement with the important section in bold:

The Basement
Intelligence optional, Humor a Must! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK This is a place for threads that turn bad as well as a place to vent your frustrations. Be advised this is not open to the public and will be LIGHTLY moderated. As with Vegas, *what is said in here stays here*. Please read the rules before posting.

The above posts highlight issues that were discussed in the Basement. It needs to "stay in Vegas" so to speak. I caution you to refrain from doing this. I, also, need to remind you all that any issues with this moderation need to be PMed.
 
Billo_Really said:
I would like to thank the Orwellian Jew Burner for his sick sense of humor. Not only does it match mine, but it sounds like a bit from Sam Kinison.
Click to expand...

Sarcastic, Cynical comics are by far my favorite.

Though you forgot the ???

Though I may have to go back to **** IT! We'll do it live!
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Moderator's Warning:
From the notes under describing the Basement with the important section in bold:

The Basement
Intelligence optional, Humor a Must! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK This is a place for threads that turn bad as well as a place to vent your frustrations. Be advised this is not open to the public and will be LIGHTLY moderated. As with Vegas, *what is said in here stays here*. Please read the rules before posting.

The above posts highlight issues that were discussed in the Basement. It needs to "stay in Vegas" so to speak. I caution you to refrain from doing this. I, also, need to remind you all that any issues with this moderation need to be Pmed.
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This is exactly what I mean about this forum becoming the incredibily shrinking room.


independent_thinker2002 said:
If you are wanting to talk about moderation and you don't target a specific mod, try the suggestions/feedback forum. If you keep it civil you shouldn't have any problems there.
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Then CC moved the thread to suggestions/feedback

CaptainCourtesy said:
Moderator's Warning:
Moved to Feedback/Suggestions Forum.
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........but not before Kelzie mentioned:

Kelzie said:
In response to the dana situation...dana didn't say anything like this. It would be better characterized like "People who think this are morons. There are plenty of them in Washington." He never said they were only in a certain location, he included all of them.
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....which was a page or so after I said:

missypea said:
These are my thoughts.

If you say: Did your mammy nurse you before you started eating watermelon?

You're safe

If you say: Wouldn't you agree that only a moron thinks (enter subject)....just look at what we've got in Washington?

Then you are clearly being uncivil........so watch it buster!
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Is the warning about the moron statement? If so, I did not mention a posters name nor did I target a moderator.
Is the warning about the “mammy” statement? That can be found in the Archives under the “Should African Americans be paid reparations?”

How exactly does that justify a warning?


Posters give feedback and end up with warnings so you aren't getting feedback, you're (collective) getting exactly what you want to hear......Pavlov's dog and all that.
 
I will say there is a difference between:
"Are you still an idiot?"

and

"Are you an idiot?"
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The first one is obvious flaming, the second one is merely a question and should not in any way be treated as though it was a statement in fact.
 
Well, since one can't choose "yes" and "no" then this poll cannot be answered with honesty.

In the middle of a discussion a person asks..."are you a moron?" This is an insult. And if such a question is reported, then a Mod would have to engage in the situation for what this question was intended.

Arguing this in any other way relies upon people to be morons and complete void of intellect.
 
Billo_Really said:
I will say there is a difference between:The first one is obvious flaming, the second one is merely a question and should not in any way be treated as though it was a statement in fact.
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Billo, as much love as I have for ya, I think you are being pointedly obtuse and that this is really about something else. If you'll forgive my candor for a moment, you're just not a very good bullshitter. I also find this affected sense of outrage to be a very unflattering color on you.

Between you claiming that a question can't be an insult and missypea cracking with paranoia that someone's getting away with something she can't, I just don't see how this thread is even staying open anymore.

Legitimate gripes are great and even productive. This has just devolved into a bunch of grabassery and a pointless exercise altogether.
 
jallman said:
Billo, as much love as I have for ya, I think you are being pointedly obtuse and that this is really about something else. If you'll forgive my candor for a moment, you're just not a very good bullshitter. I also find this affected sense of outrage to be a very unflattering color on you.

Between you claiming that a question can't be an insult and missypea cracking with paranoia that someone's getting away with something she can't, I just don't see how this thread is even staying open anymore.

Legitimate gripes are great and even productive. This has just devolved into a bunch of grabassery and a pointless exercise altogether.
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I don't speak for messypea. But I am dead serious. Once you start treating questions as though they were statements of fact, you are now practicing thought control. The mere fact that you want to silence my voice on this subject is prima facia evidence of this. I don't know why you think this is nonsense. Treating this:
You're an idiot!

and

Are you an idiot?
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as the same thing is patently wrong. They are not the same.

And since you are willing to go down this road, where does it end? It starts so simply giving warning points for a question here and a question there, then you progress into a line of questioning. Or topics of conversation.
I just don't see how this thread is even staying open anymore...
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This is censorship, pure and as simple as it gets. It is passive censorship. I can only ask what someone else determines as "appropriate" questions. Or pre-approved questions. You think I'm nuts, but so did the people in Weimar, when it all started.

One of the things I really liked about this website was that I thought you knew the difference (between a question and a statement), but I guess I was wrong.
 
GySgt said:
Well, since one can't choose "yes" and "no" then this poll cannot be answered with honesty.

In the middle of a discussion a person asks..."are you a moron?" This is an insult. And if such a question is reported, then a Mod would have to engage in the situation for what this question was intended.

Arguing this in any other way relies upon people to be morons and complete void of intellect.
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Are you a moron?

and

You are a moron!

Is not the same thing.
 
Billo_Really said:
Are you a moron?

and

You are a moron!

Is not the same thing.
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Unless you are actually expecting them to answer yes to the first one, then there isn't much difference than the second one. Its basically an insult framed as a rhetorical question.

If I were to say, in the middle of a debate, "Billo, are you a moron?" Would you take that to be an honest and sincere question on my part? Do you think I would actually be mystified about whether or not you are indeed a moron or not, and that I needed to go straight to the source for verification? Or would you take it as an insult?
 
Or, if we're going on the premise that a question can't be an insult, go for something more abstract. Something akin to, in the middle of a debate, asking "Billo are you a douchebag?"

Now, am I honestly pondering the likihood that you, Billo_Really, is actually a somehow sentient object aided in administoring enema's that has somehow learned to type on the internet....OR....is it actually an insult, that I have framed as a rhetorical question, with no real other purpose than to attack you?

By your reasoning in the OP, it would seem that since I am asking a question it is defacto automatically not an insult. I, however, would disagree.
 
jallman said:
Between you claiming that a question can't be an insult and missypea cracking with paranoia that someone's getting away with something she can't, I just don't see how this thread is even staying open anymore.
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The bolded part is what I would call not being civil.....matter of fact, I'd just say he was trying to belittle.

Legitimate gripes are great and even productive. This has just devolved into a bunch of grabassery and a pointless exercise altogether.
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I posted on this thread to talk about how I feel regarding the moderation and to get some answers from the mods regarding their moderation going forward.

I don't view either points as illegitimate or pointless.
 
missypea said:
The bolded part is what I would call not being civil.....matter of fact, I'd just say he was trying to belittle.
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Yes. Yes it was belittling. Belittling in the same way that accusing the mods of playing favorites was belittling. In the same way as a thinly veiled revival of the "mammy" drama was an attempt to belittle. Belittling in the same way that this piling on of the mods for doing a damned fine job is belittling.

I am finding this entire dialogue to be offensive to the sensibilities of every civil member of this forum and it incenses me greatly that you people have had the gall to attack the administration of this forum in the way you have over the past week and still call yourselves friends of this forum.

The conversation has been beaten to death and everything the mods are accountable for answering has been answered repeatedly. The rules are pretty damned clear and the mods have made their positions known. At this point you are all just griping and bitching for the sake of griping and bitching. It's become ridiculous.

Billo, you can sit there and argue that not allowing you to ask the rhetorical question, "are you an idiot" is going to lead to throwing jews in ovens but it's only diminishing the respect rational people have for you.

Missypea, bless your little heart, you can ask 1000 different ways but the answer is going to remain the same: if you have a problem with a post, report the damned thing and the mods will make their judgment then. And no, they will not be accountable to you for explaining their action or inaction.

To the rest of you, move along. There's nothing more to see here except a bunch of throwing punches in the air until these two tire themselves out. It's best just to not even give them the attention they're after.

1069...don't even think about it. :mrgreen:

Dana, I look forward to your first thread about Republican pedophiles and your subsequent tap dance about how posting the thread was not partisan at all. The daily thread count is suffering without you.

Nuff said.
 
jallman said:
Yes. Yes it was belittling. Belittling in the same way that accusing the mods of playing favorites was belittling. In the same way as a thinly veiled revival of the "mammy" drama was an attempt to belittle. Belittling in the same way that this piling on of the mods for doing a damned fine job is belittling.

I am finding this entire dialogue to be offensive to the sensibilities of every civil member of this forum and it incenses me greatly that you people have had the gall to attack the administration of this forum in the way you have over the past week and still call yourselves friends of this forum.

The conversation has been beaten to death and everything the mods are accountable for answering has been answered repeatedly. The rules are pretty damned clear and the mods have made their positions known. At this point you are all just griping and bitching for the sake of griping and bitching. It's become ridiculous.

Billo, you can sit there and argue that not allowing you to ask the rhetorical question, "are you an idiot" is going to lead to throwing jews in ovens but it's only diminishing the respect rational people have for you.

Missypea, bless your little heart, you can ask 1000 different ways but the answer is going to remain the same: if you have a problem with a post, report the damned thing and the mods will make their judgment then. And no, they will not be accountable to you for explaining their action or inaction.

To the rest of you, move along. There's nothing more to see here except a bunch of throwing punches in the air until these two tire themselves out. It's best just to not even give them the attention they're after.

1069...don't even think about it. :mrgreen:

Dana, I look forward to your first thread about Republican pedophiles and your subsequent tap dance about how posting the thread was not partisan at all. The daily thread count is suffering without you.

Nuff said.
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Jallman,

You must take into consideration that your opinions, voice, rantings and ravings mean about as much to me as a mosquito bite....a bit annoying when it itches, sometimes ugly enough to put some make up on it.....but for the most part, it's really nothing.

I really wish I could understand your obsession with me. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Since I'm unable to put you on ignore, I'll go back to skipping by your posts.

Good job on hijacking this post and making into something it never was.
 
WI Crippler said:
Unless you are actually expecting them to answer yes to the first one, then there isn't much difference than the second one. Its basically an insult framed as a rhetorical question.

If I were to say, in the middle of a debate, "Billo, are you a moron?" Would you take that to be an honest and sincere question on my part? Do you think I would actually be mystified about whether or not you are indeed a moron or not, and that I needed to go straight to the source for verification? Or would you take it as an insult?
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I'm not nuts! I understand my initial reaction would be thinking that is an insult. But that is an "emotional" reaction. When you think it through, you will see it is not the same thing as, "Billo, you are a moron!" The problem that I have is that you are treating it like it is. One is a statement, the other is a question. We cannot ban freedom of speech. And although it looks insulting, it was still just a question. And questions should be answered. I don't expect a particular answer. I just expect my question not to be censored. Or treated as a foul in the conversation.

BTW, a "rhetorical statement" is the same thing as a question and should be treated in the same light.

Doesn't anyone around here remember English 101? I got an "A". How 'bout you?
 
Zyphlin said:
Or, if we're going on the premise that a question can't be an insult, go for something more abstract. Something akin to, in the middle of a debate, asking "Billo are you a douchebag?"

Now, am I honestly pondering the likihood that you, Billo_Really, is actually a somehow sentient object aided in administoring enema's that has somehow learned to type on the internet....OR....is it actually an insult, that I have framed as a rhetorical question, with no real other purpose than to attack you?

By your reasoning in the OP, it would seem that since I am asking a question it is defacto automatically not an insult. I, however, would disagree.
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I think disagreement is healthy and take no offense from it. By asking a question like that, you are giving me the opportunity to answer, "No, I am not!" If you would have said, "Billo, you are a douchebag!" I would be given no opportunity because that opportunity was not requested of me and that would have been clearly a personal attack in the middle of our debate. All I'm saying is that the two are very different in their basic nature when you consider proper English. Think back to your English 101. Think back to the structure of questions, statements, compound/complex statements, prepositions, adjectives, etc. If you remember 10th grade, you will see that questions and statements are completely different animals, so to speak.
 
missypea said:
Jallman,

You must take into consideration that your opinions, voice, rantings and ravings mean about as much to me as a mosquito bite....a bit annoying when it itches, sometimes ugly enough to put some make up on it.....but for the most part, it's really nothing.

I really wish I could understand your obsession with me. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Since I'm unable to put you on ignore, I'll go back to skipping by your posts.

Good job on hijacking this post and making into something it never was.
Click to expand...

And you must take into consideration that I give not one iota of care to your feelings about me. However, when I see an injustice occurring I will speak to it regardless of whether you find my concerns relevant or not. So, in effect, you may ignore, you may take what I say with a grain of salt, or you may go full on menstrual over it; it's not going to change the fact that I will address what I see. I don't think that reasoning with you is a productive pursuit because you proven that you aren't to be reasoned with. However, when I address something you say, I am not doing it for your benefit but for the benefit of everyone else involved.

Basically, I use you as an example of how not to act. That's all you've been good for lately.
 
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