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Intentional killing of debate needs change

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haymarket

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This site is dedicated to the exchange of free ideas and open debate. I quote from Rule 1

1. Freedom of Speech - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

At Debate Politics we see freedom of speech as the right to communicate ideas. With this right comes the responsibility to choose your words carefully and respect the rights of others. Common sense dictates the difference between one expressing themselves and one who is disruptive. If you are focused on contributing to the community, you will not have to be concerned with being a disruption. Disruptive behavior, such as personal attacks, can lead to temporary or permanent revocation of posting privileges.


However, we also have a section here called the Basement which is being used and abused by a small number of individuals to subvert and limit debate.

This needs action and some change if debate in the normal part of the forum is to be all it can be.

Specifically, what is being done has nothing at all to do with one of the priorities that the Basement itself proclaims

HUMOR IS A MUST

That is what it says in the Basement description. But what do many of the threads there have to do with humor? Precious little if at all. The Basement is being used as a way to skirt the rules upstairs and stifle if not kill debate.

This is obvious in the Gun Threads or almost anything on the topic of guns and the Second Amendment. A group of people often and regularly attempt to attack people who post in gun threads taking a position which is counter to theirs. Especially vile treatment is reserved for those who will not back down upstairs and keep arguing with them. And HUMOR never raises its head in their attacks. The whole point it make somebody pay a price for opposing their pet issue. The whole point is to make it so uncomfortable for them that they withdraw from gun threads and simply see it as "not being worth it" and they cease and desist debating in gun threads.

This is intentional.

This is done on purpose.

This is done with full knowledge that some people do not like being personally and attacked with all manner of vitriol.

And it is done with the hope it will kill opposition to their ideas.

So how does that advance the purpose of this site?

How does that fulfill the mandate and purpose of Rule #1 quoted above?

People are also using the Basement to run parallel discussions on gun topics in which they can do all the vile things they cannot do in upstairs threads and AT THE SAME TIME. This pretending that there is a rule against vile personal attacks is fairly ridiculous when these things go on regularly.

If you doubt what I say - just go to the gun threads and read a bit then go to the Basement and see how many attack threads are made on people who have dared to disagree with the pro-gun lobby people. The whole point is to kill discussion my making people uncomfortable and then say "its just not worth it" - so they stop posting in gun threads or limit what they say.

In summary - you have two very very very opposite things going on here and one is helping to kill the other.

How does that help open debate and how does that help this site?

I would suggest that the moderators and owner of this site consider some sort of restriction on creation and operation of parallel threads in the basement.

I would further suggest that the "lightly moderated" Basement be returned to its purpose of Humor A Must and some care is taken to try to make sure that it is not used as a way to kill and discourage debate upstairs - which after all is the heart and soul of this site.

Thank you.
 
IMO the basement does nothing but cause problems and animosity upstairs.

It should be one way or the other, a wide open free-for-all or a serious debate site.

BTW: it's not just the gun threads.
 
WCH said:
IMO the basement does nothing but cause problems and animosity upstairs.

It should be one way or the other, a wide open free-for-all or a serious debate site.

BTW: it's not just the gun threads.
Click to expand...
I actually disagree. In every forum you''ll have a "free-for all" mentality to some extent. Creating a sub-forum to vent helps funnel flame-fests to their appropriate place and keeps upstairs conversations more civil than otherwise. To each his own though.
 
WCH said:
IMO the basement does nothing but cause problems and animosity upstairs.

It should be one way or the other, a wide open free-for-all or a serious debate site.

BTW: it's not just the gun threads.
Click to expand...

haymarket said:
This site is dedicated to the exchange of free ideas and open debate. I quote from Rule 1

1. Freedom of Speech - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

At Debate Politics we see freedom of speech as the right to communicate ideas. With this right comes the responsibility to choose your words carefully and respect the rights of others. Common sense dictates the difference between one expressing themselves and one who is disruptive. If you are focused on contributing to the community, you will not have to be concerned with being a disruption. Disruptive behavior, such as personal attacks, can lead to temporary or permanent revocation of posting privileges.


However, we also have a section here called the Basement which is being used and abused by a small number of individuals to subvert and limit debate.

This needs action and some change if debate in the normal part of the forum is to be all it can be.

Specifically, what is being done has nothing at all to do with one of the priorities that the Basement itself proclaims

HUMOR IS A MUST

That is what it says in the Basement description. But what do many of the threads there have to do with humor? Precious little if at all. The Basement is being used as a way to skirt the rules upstairs and stifle if not kill debate.

This is obvious in the Gun Threads or almost anything on the topic of guns and the Second Amendment. A group of people often and regularly attempt to attack people who post in gun threads taking a position which is counter to theirs. Especially vile treatment is reserved for those who will not back down upstairs and keep arguing with them. And HUMOR never raises its head in their attacks. The whole point it make somebody pay a price for opposing their pet issue. The whole point is to make it so uncomfortable for them that they withdraw from gun threads and simply see it as "not being worth it" and they cease and desist debating in gun threads.

This is intentional.

This is done on purpose.

This is done with full knowledge that some people do not like being personally and attacked with all manner of vitriol.

And it is done with the hope it will kill opposition to their ideas.

So how does that advance the purpose of this site?

How does that fulfill the mandate and purpose of Rule #1 quoted above?

People are also using the Basement to run parallel discussions on gun topics in which they can do all the vile things they cannot do in upstairs threads and AT THE SAME TIME. This pretending that there is a rule against vile personal attacks is fairly ridiculous when these things go on regularly.

If you doubt what I say - just go to the gun threads and read a bit then go to the Basement and see how many attack threads are made on people who have dared to disagree with the pro-gun lobby people. The whole point is to kill discussion my making people uncomfortable and then say "its just not worth it" - so they stop posting in gun threads or limit what they say.

In summary - you have two very very very opposite things going on here and one is helping to kill the other.

How does that help open debate and how does that help this site?

I would suggest that the moderators and owner of this site consider some sort of restriction on creation and operation of parallel threads in the basement.

I would further suggest that the "lightly moderated" Basement be returned to its purpose of Humor A Must and some care is taken to try to make sure that it is not used as a way to kill and discourage debate upstairs - which after all is the heart and soul of this site.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

I can second the opinion here. I brought up the irrational idea that there are those that believe in gun control for legitimate reasons and that not everyone out there is evil and wants to take away their guns. They started going after me like I was the one for gun control. Ironic since I've posted many times against such gun control measures. A lot of anger in that topic.
 
a351 said:
I actually disagree. In every forum you''ll have a "free-for all" mentality to some extent. Creating a sub-forum to vent helps funnel flame-fests to their appropriate place and keeps upstairs conversations more civil than otherwise. To each his own though.
Click to expand...
I've been on other sites where there was no such section. It was well moderated and people were civilized.

BASE ment is a proper name for the place. since all it does is debase people and bring out their base qualities.

It cheapens the debate here.
 
Solution. If you do not like what goes on in the basement, stay out of the basement.
 
haymarket said:
This site is dedicated to the exchange of free ideas and open debate. ..........................
This is intentional.

This is done on purpose.

This is done with full knowledge that some people do not like being personally and attacked with all manner of vitriol.

And it is done with the hope it will kill opposition to their ideas.


Thank you.
Click to expand...

WCH said:
IMO the basement does nothing but cause problems and animosity upstairs.

It should be one way or the other, a wide open free-for-all or a serious debate site.

BTW: it's not just the gun threads.
Click to expand...

Some choose not to play in that area of the forum; thereby simplifying or eliminating the observed situation altogether. It is sometimes difficult to swallow one's ego ( nearly all have this challenge ) and refuse to partake in such futile undertakings of that type.

Remember? "Sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me"

If one cares not for the basement .... refuse to play.

Best wishes to all

Thom Paine
 
Excon said:
Solution. If you do not like what goes on in the basement, stay out of the basement.
Click to expand...

How does that prevent the problem described here?
 
Excon said:
:doh
You stay out of the basement you have nothing to complain about.
Click to expand...

That is not at all true since one is still a target. One is still attacked. One is still the object of scorn and derision ajd one still pays the price which is a intimidation tactic to stile debate and a free exchange of ideas.

But lets take the germ of the idea and make it work.

The Basement should be a club that is joined. And once joined - then its fair game and the member is fair game.

There should be a period of time - say thirty days - where the new rule is announced and people have the opportunity to join the basement. Those who do understand that can both abuse and be abused - debase and be debased - attack and be attacked - ridicule and be ridiculed - intimidate and be intimidated.

If you do that - then everybody wins.
 
haymarket said:
That is not at all true since one is still a target. One is still attacked. One is still the object of scorn and derision ajd one still pays the price which is a intimidation tactic to stile debate and a free exchange of ideas.

But lets take the germ of the idea and make it work.

The Basement should be a club that is joined. And once joined - then its fair game and the member is fair game.

There should be a period of time - say thirty days - where the new rule is announced and people have the opportunity to join the basement. Those who do understand that can both abuse and be abused - debase and be debased - attack and be attacked - ridicule and be ridiculed - intimidate and be intimidated.

If you do that - then everybody wins.
Click to expand...

"One is still attacked"

And how would you know if you were attacked if you didnt go in the basement?

Ignorance is bliss, also....

OH NO!!! SOME RANDOM PERSON ON A FORUM ON POLITICS ATTACKED MY IDEAS AND ATTACKED ME!!! WHAT EVER WILL I DO?!?!?!?!
 
haymarket said:
That is not at all true since one is still a target. One is still attacked. One is still the object of scorn and derision ajd one still pays the price which is a intimidation tactic to stile debate and a free exchange of ideas.
Click to expand...
If what goes on in the basement upsets you, avoid it.
 
Luftwaffe said:
"One is still attacked"

And how would you know if you were attacked if you didnt go in the basement?

Ignorance is bliss, also....

OH NO!!! SOME RANDOM PERSON ON A FORUM ON POLITICS ATTACKED MY IDEAS AND ATTACKED ME!!! WHAT EVER WILL I DO?!?!?!?!
Click to expand...

Ignorance is ignorance. And none of what you said speaks to the motivation behind these basement attacks in the first place.
 
haymarket said:
And none of what you said speaks to the motivation behind these basement attacks in the first place.
Click to expand...
Their motivation is irrelevant to whether you stay out of the basement or not.
 
Luftwaffe said:
The basement will not change, you will accept that.
Click to expand...

If you are right that it will not change - then that raises all sorts of questions about its intent and the intent that I described in the OP.

And the idea to just stay out of it would be fine if one could keep themselves out of it. But that is not now possible.

Even if one does not go there - you get a notification that one of your upstairs quotes was reproduced. And when you click on it it takes you to the basement where somebody is ascribing all sorts of imagined sexual acts to you and using vile over the top juvenile baiting to rip on you.

In addition, I have gotten PM's from people alerting me to something being said about me in the basement.

So its now a matter of simply "staying out" and you are not harmed.
 
Excon said:
Their motivation is irrelevant to whether you stay out of the basement or not.
Click to expand...

First, I just shot down the "just stay out" line of reasoning.
Second, the motivation is indeed the key point here as people are intentionally and purposely using the Basement to stile open debate upstairs. And if Rule #1 is serious, that destroys the main purpose of this site.

At Debate Politics we see freedom of speech as the right to communicate ideas. With this right comes the responsibility to choose your words carefully and respect the rights of others. Common sense dictates the difference between one expressing themselves and one who is disruptive. If you are focused on contributing to the community, you will not have to be concerned with being a disruption. Disruptive behavior, such as personal attacks, can lead to temporary or permanent revocation of posting privileges.
 
haymarket said:
Even if one does not go there - you get a notification that one of your upstairs quotes was reproduced. And when you click on it it takes you to the basement ...
Click to expand...
Now that is a legitimate concern. There should be no baiting as such using upstairs threads.
So see if they will implement that.
 
Excon said:
Now that is a legitimate concern. There should be no baiting as such using upstairs threads.
So see if they will implement that.
Click to expand...

But that is only a partial fix to part of the problem. No rule can stop people from sending another member a PM saying you are being savaged in the Basement. The only way to stop that is to create the Basement as a willing club of consenting participants. Nothing else will work.

Consent is the key here. Since the Basement is very different from the main board. and since the rules are very different, one should have to consent to participate in it.

Why would you object to that?
 
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haymarket said:
First, I just shot down the "just stay out" line of reasoning.
Click to expand...
No you didn't.
You don't have to follow every damn quote made of you.
That is on you.


haymarket said:
Second, the motivation is indeed the key point here
Click to expand...
No, it is irrelevant.
All you are doing is crying because you don't like it. That is all.
 
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haymarket said:
But that is only a partial fix to part of the problem.
Click to expand...
There is no other problem
All you are doing is crying because you don't like something.
Ignore the basement and drive on. Duh!


I gave you a solution that you could implement.
You don't want to do that, fine. But it is a solution.
So there is nothing more to debate between us.

Now all you have to do is wait for staff to respond.
Hopefully they will tell you the same thing.
 
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haymarket said:
Since the Basement is very different from the main board. and since the rules are very different, one should have to consent to participate in it.
Click to expand...
Unless things have changed, you do. The first time you post there you have to accept.
So what are you talking about?
 
Excon said:
No you didn't.
You don't have to follow every damn quote made of you.
That is on you.


No, it is irrelevant.
All you are doing is crying because you don't like it. That is all.
Click to expand...

WOW!!!! earlier you said it was "a legitimate concern". Now you say just don't follow it. It seems you changed your tune pretty fast.

It seems you are trying badly to defend the very thing I am pointing out is the problem.

Could it just be that what you are doing is defending your own ability to participate and be part of the problem so that views you object to are not advanced and people who advance them get discouraged and leave the playing field to you and those who agree with you?
 
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Excon said:
Unless things have changed, you do. The first time you post there you have to accept.
So what are you talking about?
Click to expand...

One can be savaged in the basement without ever going there. So your point fails.

As a participant in the very thing I have described it seems that all you are trying to do is defend tactics of intimidation so that views one does not like simply go away.
 
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