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Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban

Grant said:
You needn't be part of a religious group to avoid mainstream society. And of course "not all Muslims are terrorists" as we hear daily but not all Muslims aren't terrorists either. But there is also the matter of domestic terrorism in the Muslim home. In Europe and North America wherever more Muslims arrive there are more Muslim women seeking shelter. The response from the men is typical.

Islam in Europe: Drammen: Women in shelters are to blame

In Europe, Muslim Women Face Multiple Issues : NPR
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Banning the burka won't change any of that. If being free and liberated was enough to protect us from domestic violence, there would be no need for those shelters at all. Muslim women are far from the only ones who make us of them.


Perhaps you've worn a sack over your head to work, or beachwear to your favorite fondue restaurant or a police or fireman's costume to do your grocery shopping but most people know how to dress appropriate to the occasion, the places they are visiting, and the culture in which they live. There is a connection between dress, manners, behavior that connect all cultures with each other and in fact all peoples of the world with each other. Good manners, for example, are just as important in Athens or Tokyo as they are in Nairobi or Buenos Aires.
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That is not a valid argument. Government should not be legislating "good manners." Being good mannered or respectful is not an obligation, it's a choice.


And I'd be all for that BUT! we don't know, in a patriarchal culture, how many women are being abused because they are at great risk if they do try and defend themselves or express any independence. That is written right there in the Koran about beating wives and those laws certainly dates further back that the body burka, which is a rather recent phenomenon. You only have to read the writings of Muslim women to understand the difficulties and hardships many Muslim women face, and the courage it takes simply to go to a woman's shelter.
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Again, this problem will not go away simply because you ban the burka. What you're describing is not just a Muslim problem, it's a domestic violence problem. Many abused women, Muslim or not, find it excruciatingly hard to take that first step into getting outside help.

I agree that many women will be forced by their husbands to stay home, which simply reinforces the idea that these women are not having a free choice in what they might want to wear. "Beneath The Veil", if you've ever seen it, shows the lengths many women have to go to to safely apply lipstick on their mouths or polish on their fingernails, if only for a little while. They risk a public beating of they are caught. Forcing women to wear great swathes of cloth over the heads and bodies, despite the weather, is just not right.
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Public beatings? In France? I don't think so. Let's remember what part of the world we're talking about here.

Sure you can. But would you if you didn't have to? There have been many cases of young Muslims girls being murdered by their fathers for becoming too"western" and not wearing a burka. Just Google and you'll find many dozens of such cases. Banning the burka frees these younger Muslim girls and women from the threat of death from their fathers and brothers.
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You can't possibly be naive enough to believe what you just wrote. The stories I've read were about Muslim girls who weren't even expected to wear a veil at all. Their crime was to not dress modestly enough and, worst of all, to go out with boys. A burka ban would not have helped a single one of those girls.

Yes, indeed. But many Muslim women aren't being given this choice,


No, it won't initially but it will eventually. Muslims have to enter the mainstream and dressing their women in shrouds will not encourage that.
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Why do they have to enter the mainstream if they don't want to? Do I need to bring the Amish back up again? France, just like the US, is a free country. Whoever wants to leave those communities and "enter the mainstream" should be given all the support they need. I'd even be for a program that sends social workers into those communities to inform the women of their rights as citizens or residents. That would be a heck of a lot more effective than a totalitarian ban. It's the sort of thing I don't mind paying taxes for.

Are you suggesting the fines should be higher? I don't think this law is directed to Middle Eastern sheiks anyway, but instead to Muslim families living in France.
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It's directed at everyone who happens to be on French soil. It doesn't matter how high the fines go, guys like him can afford any amount.

You're saying the same thing I am, that the men have all the power and the women have none. I want that to change.
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Me too. I just think this ban is not the way to go about it.
 
VanceMack said:
Im not sure I agree with that line re 'the state' not having the 'right' to interfere. Perhaps in your country, or perhaps in your vision of what 'a' state...any government...should be allowed to do. But...well...this is France we are talking about and they as a 'state' have decided they most definitely do have the right. Just as fundamentalist Islamic countries execute and enforce certain rights.
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Of course it's my "vision". Whose vision should I be defending other than my own on a debate board? ;) In my opinion, no government should interfere in the lives of people who are no threat to society whatsoever.
 
Arcana XV said:
Of course it's my "vision". Whose vision should I be defending other than my own on a debate board? ;) In my opinion, no government should interfere in the lives of people who are no threat to society whatsoever.
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Thats my point...and I agree with your vision. I think in our own minds we could ALL create the ideal set of rules and circumstances and solve all the worlds problems. And Im way fine with disagreeing with how other countries act. Its just that whole 'rights' thing...that always kinda spins me out a little.
 
Arcana XV;1059416141 In my opinion said:
and that is why the French government is limiting itself to those who do, here.
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Gardener said:
and that is why the French government is limiting itself to those who do, here.
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That's ridiculous and you know it. A piece of fabric is not a weapon. Do keep some perspective. If the French government really wants to do some good, I suggest they start cleaning up the "cités" they're too scared to set foot in. It's unconscionable to scapegoat 2000 defenseless women, when the real problems are much greater.
 
Arcana XV said:
Banning the burka won't change any of that. If being free and liberated was enough to protect us from domestic violence, there would be no need for those shelters at all. Muslim women are far from the only ones who make us of them.
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Right. All women are victims so why bother with Muslim women.

Actually I've come to the same conclusion as you. I'll leave it up to Muslims, and of course the Amish, to worry about their women.
 
Well France has good intentions, I mean the oppressive middle eastern muslim government force their women to be inferior and wear those to cover themselves up and unfortunately it's become a part of their culture. So it's like you want to discourage that oppressive custom and yet you can't put down their culture if they want to wear them. So it's a complicated issue.
 
Arcana XV said:
Of course it's my "vision". Whose vision should I be defending other than my own on a debate board? ;) In my opinion, no government should interfere in the lives of people who are no threat to society whatsoever.
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There is a concern, apparently well justified through statistics and oter evidence, that there is a domestic danger to those women who don't wear the burka. The beatings and murders rather suggest this, but of course women are being beaten and murdered everywhere. Especially among the Amish.
 
Grant said:
Right. All women are victims so why bother with Muslim women.

Actually I've come to the same conclusion as you. I'll leave it up to Muslims, and of course the Amish, to worry about their women.
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Grant said:
There is a concern, apparently well justified through statistics and oter evidence, that there is a domestic danger to those women who don't wear the burka. The beatings and murders rather suggest this, but of course women are being beaten and murdered everywhere. Especially among the Amish.
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Grant, I'm sure you're very frustrated with this whole discussion, but the fact remains that, despite your very good intentions, this ban will not bring the results you so hope for. Surely, you realize this if you're to be truly honest with yourself. Or maybe I'm just way more cynical about humanity than you are. I don't see any good coming from this ban. This is what I predict will happen, knowing what I know about this particular community in France:

The women who wear it out of cultural habit will not understand why they have to remove it and may even be deeply offended at the idea. Those who are forced to wear it will not be allowed out of the house and may face even more abuse if they try to use the law in their favor. These two groups constitute the majority of full veil wearers.
Those who wear it by choice (generally a minority of recent converts) will either reluctantly comply and remove the veil covering their face or they'll continue to wear it as a form of protest. Some have even been making noises about switching from wearing hijab to wearing a full veil in support of those who wear it by choice.

Is this really what the supporters of this ban want? :shrug:
 
Arcana XV said:
That's ridiculous and you know it. A piece of fabric is not a weapon. Do keep some perspective. If the French government really wants to do some good, I suggest they start cleaning up the "cités" they're too scared to set foot in. It's unconscionable to scapegoat 2000 defenseless women, when the real problems are much greater.
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It is not ridiculous to expect that those living in your country should become French.

Placating a fifth column living among you is foolish, as it DOES represent a danger to France to have growing legions of backwards fundamentalists living amoing you who want nothing from France but to undermine your liberal values and replace them with their primitive culture.
 
Gardener said:
It is not ridiculous to expect that those living in your country should become French.

Placating a fifth column living among you is foolish, as it DOES represent a danger to France to have growing legions of backwards fundamentalists living amoing you who want nothing from France but to undermine your liberal values and replace them with their primitive culture.
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I'll tell you what, Gard. Let's meet up in about 30 years or so when your apocalyptic vision becomes a reality and you can laugh in my face and say "I told you so." :lol:

By the way, your scenario is just as likely to happen with or without this ban.
 
Arcana XV said:
I'll tell you what, Gard. Let's meet up in about 30 years or so when your apocalyptic vision becomes a reality and you can laugh in my face and say "I told you so." :lol:

By the way, your scenario is just as likely to happen with or without this ban.
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I have apocalyptic visions? Cool!

I do like your vision of me being among the living in 30 years, though.
 
Arcana XV said:
Grant, I'm sure you're very frustrated with this whole discussion, but the fact remains that, despite your very good intentions, this ban will not bring the results you so hope for. Surely, you realize this if you're to be truly honest with yourself. Or maybe I'm just way more cynical about humanity than you are. I don't see any good coming from this ban. This is what I predict will happen, knowing what I know about this particular community in France:
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I am sincere, and I think everyone should be concerned about the plight of many Muslim women, Honestly, I just don't get the indifference. While you claim the ban will not get results, what have you in mind? Social workers visiting homes where the women are being abused? Who is going tell them? And the burkas, as any women working in the hostels can tell you, are often covering the bruises. When I get specific to Muslim women you, and others, bring up Amish women, there is violence against all women, it's racist to comment, I haven't spoken to enough Muslims, many women want to wear it, etc., none of which relates to the problem at hand and neither are alternatives being offered.

The women who wear it out of cultural habit will not understand why they have to remove it and may even be deeply offended at the idea.
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It does not matter if they are offended. They should be educated and informed of the bigger problem.

Those who are forced to wear it will not be allowed out of the house and may face even more abuse if they try to use the law in their favor.
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Then you know that women are being forced to wear the burka and it has nothing to do with the Amish. When women are not allowed out of their homes there will be a chance the neighbours will complain and then the social workers can visit to see what's going on. But they can't visit all those homes unless there is evidence, and the burkas frequently hide the evidence.

These two groups constitute the majority of full veil wearers.
Those who wear it by choice (generally a minority of recent converts) will either reluctantly comply and remove the veil covering their face or they'll continue to wear it as a form of protest. Some have even been making noises about switching from wearing hijab to wearing a full veil in support of those who wear it by choice.
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Then the law must step in again. All Muslims are not rich princes.
Is this really what the supporters of this ban want?
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Supporters of the ban want liberty, equality and fraternity, as well as to ensure the public safety. None of these ambitions will be realized if women, willingly or otherwise, cover their heads and bodies in burkas, a religious and political statement which has only become in fashion quite recently.

Wife Abuse in the Muslim Community :: Islam the Eternal Path to Peace :: Jannah.Org

Abuse and Germany's Muslim women - World news - Islam in Europe - msnbc.com

Who Will Speak Up For The Muslim Women In Europe? - The Muslim Woman

The Redhunter: "The Steady Erosion of Women's Rights in Egypt"
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Grant said:
I am sincere, and I think everyone should be concerned about the plight of many Muslim women, Honestly, I just don't get the indifference. While you claim the ban will not get results, what have you in mind? Social workers visiting homes where the women are being abused? Who is going tell them? And the burkas, as any women working in the hostels can tell you, are often covering the bruises. When I get specific to Muslim women you, and others, bring up Amish women, there is violence against all women, it's racist to comment, I haven't spoken to enough Muslims, many women want to wear it, etc., none of which relates to the problem at hand and neither are alternatives being offered.



It does not matter if they are offended. They should be educated and informed of the bigger problem.



Then you know that women are being forced to wear the burka and it has nothing to do with the Amish. When women are not allowed out of their homes there will be a chance the neighbours will complain and then the social workers can visit to see what's going on. But they can't visit all those homes unless there is evidence, and the burkas frequently hide the evidence.



Then the law must step in again. All Muslims are not rich princes.


Supporters of the ban want liberty, equality and fraternity, as well as to ensure the public safety. None of these ambitions will be realized if women, willingly or otherwise, cover their heads and bodies in burkas, a religious and political statement which has only become in fashion quite recently.

Wife Abuse in the Muslim Community :: Islam the Eternal Path to Peace :: Jannah.Org

Abuse and Germany's Muslim women - World news - Islam in Europe - msnbc.com

Who Will Speak Up For The Muslim Women In Europe? - The Muslim Woman

The Redhunter: "The Steady Erosion of Women's Rights in Egypt"
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*sigh*

Grant, you and I have been around this argument countless times before. You know where I stand on this issue and you're still missing the point. No one is more aware of the evils of domestic violence than I am, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators. There is no need to bombard me with links.

There is nothing you can say that will make me change my conviction that this ban is misguided, targets the wrong people, unduly invades the privacy of individuals and will have none of the intended effects, but will bring about a whole bunch of unintended consequences instead.

I say we agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)
 
Arcana XV said:
*sigh*

Grant, you and I have been around this argument countless times before. You know where I stand on this issue and you're still missing the point. No one is more aware of the evils of domestic violence than I am, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators. There is no need to bombard me with links.

There is nothing you can say that will make me change my conviction that this ban is misguided, targets the wrong people, unduly invades the privacy of individuals and will have none of the intended effects, but will bring about a whole bunch of unintended consequences instead.

I say we agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)
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So, how DO you address the problem?

Seems to me that Multiculturalist dogmatism is obviously part of the problem, double standards are obviously part of the problem, and apologetics is obviously part of the problem, so what is the solution? How do you take people from cultures where they arrange marriages between uncles and neices without the girls consent, mutilate their genitals so they can never enjoy sex, slap them in restrictive clothing so they are not raped by other misogynistic men and treat them as brood mares? Aren't we getting just a wee bit tied up in the minutia of ideological arguments based upon western perceptions when there are such serious infringements of human rights occuring at such a systematic level?

What is your solution?
 
Arcana XV said:
*sigh*

Grant, you and I have been around this argument countless times before. You know where I stand on this issue and you're still missing the point. No one is more aware of the evils of domestic violence than I am, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators. There is no need to bombard me with links.

There is nothing you can say that will make me change my conviction that this ban is misguided, targets the wrong people, unduly invades the privacy of individuals and will have none of the intended effects, but will bring about a whole bunch of unintended consequences instead.

I say we agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)
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I get your point absolutelty. It just isn't valid.

Perhaps you can disagree with the Syrians as well. Or maybe they know something you don't.

Syria bans the burka and niqab in universities | Mail Online
 
Nothing is worn under a kilt. It's custum as we know. I'm gonna wear mine in public and whatever happens happens.

The queen asked the Scotsman if anything is worn under the kilt.
No ma'am, I believe everything is in working order.
 
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