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Channel 4 documentaries - faith schools, parents and corrective child punishment.

Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

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Channel 4's "Dispatches" has really rivalled Panorama for cutting edge documentaries these last few years. Tomorrow night sees footage from undercover operatives in UK mosques - not a lot of information but there's footage of beating and punishment of children in "masjids" (schools for kids)

Pre-quel here-

Dispatches - Features - Lessons in Hate and Violence: Video Clip - Channel 4

One of the comments at the bottom of the page -

I feel uncomfortable watching the clip but this is what happens in 90% masjids all across UK. In Birmingham there are around 50 masjids in a very small area and I know and have heard from friends and family about actual serious injuries caused by these so called teachers of Islam. I worked near a masjid and the foul language coming out of children from the ages of 5 when they enter and leave the masjid is shameful. These are the children that never enter a masjid after they complete the quran, these are the children that have no knowledge to Islam, these are the children that are dealing drugs and committing crimes. I know many people will protest its not going on- its because they are in denial, the muslim community need to wake up and realise the islam they practi ce is not the islam in the quran and the sunnah. Only last week an Imam was jailed for sexually abusing boys unless these issues are highlighted and addressed things will not change. All masjid teachers should be CRB checked and those that refuse should not be employed. As a parent I cannot understand why we deny such evidence exists, its shameful it takes a documentary for muslims to wake up.
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The early evidence highlights a huge need to make sure imams are aware of the laws of this country, that any found beating children are arrested and punished: deported if they are not citizens.

Then we have the recent series on child punishment by 4thoughTV - again Channel 4 but only a 5 minute slot. There's been a recent series of monologues on smacking children, I watched Edwina McKenzie in anger on Thursday / Friday and she had searched the bible for justification of smacking. There's a series of other videos on the 4thoughtTV link here.

Thoughts?

(My personal view is very anti-smacking, I've not been sure about faith schools or weekend schools but I am beginning to become "anti" as these places can exist outside the Ofsted inspection regime (being inside didn't protect "baby P").

There are probably some very good faith schools - but is it now time to close them or make sure that they are inspected properly to protect the children who go there?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Channel 4's "Dispatches" has really rivalled Panorama for cutting edge documentaries these last few years. Tomorrow night sees footage from undercover operatives in UK mosques - not a lot of information but there's footage of beating and punishment of children in "masjids" (schools for kids)

Pre-quel here-

Dispatches - Features - Lessons in Hate and Violence: Video Clip - Channel 4

One of the comments at the bottom of the page -



The early evidence highlights a huge need to make sure imams are aware of the laws of this country, that any found beating children are arrested and punished: deported if they are not citizens.

Then we have the recent series on child punishment by 4thoughTV - again Channel 4 but only a 5 minute slot. There's been a recent series of monologues on smacking children, I watched Edwina McKenzie in anger on Thursday / Friday and she had searched the bible for justification of smacking. There's a series of other videos on the 4thoughtTV link here.

Thoughts?

(My personal view is very anti-smacking, I've not been sure about faith schools or weekend schools but I am beginning to become "anti" as these places can exist outside the Ofsted inspection regime (being inside didn't protect "baby P").

There are probably some very good faith schools - but is it now time to close them or make sure that they are inspected properly to protect the children who go there?
Click to expand...

I agree Chanel 4 is definitely rivalling panorama and feel all investigative documentaries really need an hours worth of coverage, to do most subjects justice. Without googling i presume these schools [masjids] are not too dissimilar to madrassas?
I can remember as a kid attending 'penny Templar's' thinking it was fun to aggravate the adults that ran it. Looking back i can remember they got quite physical on occasion with us kids. I think debating faith schools would a good topic but in principle I'm pretty much against considering I'm agnostic.

Paul
 
gunner said:
-- Without googling i presume these schools [masjids] are not too dissimilar to madrassas?
Click to expand...

We'll find out tomorrow I guess.

gunner said:
-- I think debating faith schools would a good topic but in principle I'm pretty much against considering I'm agnostic.

Paul
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Any other reason?

At first I really felt these schools could serve a community purpose, that you could put studious kids of one religious group together and they would work hard at their studies. There are currently grant-aided CofE and Catholic secondary schools around the country - my two eldest went to Catholic schools before they came to live with me, now they are at a CofE school in my town. The mixture of kids is pretty broad and you get most of the common teen and behaviour problems.

I suppose I hoped faith schools would produce an environment where kids really did go to study but a lot of reports and stories seem to show otherwise; not to say this is all the schools, there was a really good jewish one in my old home town.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
We'll find out tomorrow I guess.



Any other reason?

At first I really felt these schools could serve a community purpose, that you could put studious kids of one religious group together and they would work hard at their studies. There are currently grant-aided CofE and Catholic secondary schools around the country - my two eldest went to Catholic schools before they came to live with me, now they are at a CofE school in my town. The mixture of kids is pretty broad and you get most of the common teen and behaviour problems.

I suppose I hoped faith schools would produce an environment where kids really did go to study but a lot of reports and stories seem to show otherwise; not to say this is all the schools, there was a really good jewish one in my old home town.
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To be honest I'm pretty much ignorant on the subject. I am/was of the opinion that they do seem to produce when it comes to exam results, never a bad thing. But, because of my ignorance I'm taking a stab that i would be concerned with the added curricular activities that may be on offer [religious based].
Religion in my opinion need only be supplementary rather than the ethos of education within schools. In saying this my nephew attends a RC school which has infused almost no inclination on his part to get interested in Catholicism thank god!:lol:

Edited to add. Came across this article suggesting joint faith schools, not sure how this would be different from an ordinary school teaching about all religions?

"As an example, he said that in Oldham there were plans for a joint Church of England and Muslim academy".

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Faith schools set for expansion

Paul
 
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Only parents should be allowed to spank, though not wallop and thump as some louts do anyway.

I would say the cane should be brought back to help deal with the complete headcases who don't speak any other language, though that too can open a can of worms as no few adults remember being put through hell by really sadistic teachers as kids.
 
gunner said:
--Edited to add. Came across this article suggesting joint faith schools, not sure how this would be different from an ordinary school teaching about all religions?

"As an example, he said that in Oldham there were plans for a joint Church of England and Muslim academy".

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Faith schools set for expansion

Paul
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Strange decision in that school unless there were failed Ofsteds and reduced numbers. Academies get put into place where a school has repeatedly been under special measures and there is a general reduction in pupil numbers. Happened in my town too - 3 schools (one CofE) have been made into one huge academy. A couple of my ex-students work there and the old social problems (it's a 97% white town so nothing to do with race) still exist with the kids from the estates.

Looked at the Oldham example-one of the schools ebing put together with a mainly muslim school already had mixed pupil intake. It's an old Grammar school that got mixed with other schools in the 60's so the social engineering background goes back a way.

Counthill School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
gunner said:
I agree Chanel 4 is definitely rivalling panorama and feel all investigative documentaries really need an hours worth of coverage, to do most subjects justice. Without googling i presume these schools [masjids] are not too dissimilar to madrassas?
I can remember as a kid attending 'penny Templar's' thinking it was fun to aggravate the adults that ran it. Looking back i can remember they got quite physical on occasion with us kids. I think debating faith schools would a good topic but in principle I'm pretty much against considering I'm agnostic.

Paul
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It doesn't look like these "Masjids" are actually in the state school system, having looked around it looks like these are an out of school class attached to local Mosques and Islamic learning centres. I'm looking forward to the programme to find out exactly what their point is and I'll make further comment afterwards if necessary.

As an atheist I don't agree with state funded faith schools either.

Panorama has become a poor investigative journalism string and I very rarely watch it but when C4 avoids the sensationalist "World's Ugliest People" type documentaries it maintains a very high standard. I would like to see more of John Pilger on the TV but he seems to have disappeared off the radar.
 
Will be interesting that is for sure. Love Panorama and Dispatches... when I remember to watch them.

As for these faith schools... all should be banned. Christian faith schools dont have a good reputation either to say the least.. everything from paedophile to beating the crap out of kids and even murder.... all done in the name of God.

Religions used schools and access to education for centuries to keep the population in check.. dumb and ignorant makes people easy to control. Hence they should not have the right to be school teachers at all in a modern society.
 
Johann Hari touches on this topic in describing the three biggest lies of the Cameron con.

" ...Deception Number Three: Multiculturalism. In a speech last weekend, Cameron argued that Britain has allowed some ethnic minorities to fall into "segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values." We should stop encouraging immigrants to be separate and to retain the culture of the country they came from, however patriarchal and fundamentalist it might be. Instead we should promote a "liberal society" where we all mix with each other in one shared culture.

I agree. I am the son of an immigrant and passionately in favour of immigration – but the best way to welcome immigrants is not to put them in a brightly coloured box called Exotic and Different, where they are free to oppress "their" women and gays.

But while Cameron preaches against ghettoising minorities publicly, he is actively promoting it in the most important and formative place of all – our schools. When I was a kid growing up in the London suburbs, I went to school with children from every kind of family – black, white, Muslim, Jewish, atheist. Because we all knew each other as real people, few of us became racist: we'd always remember our friends and know any stereotype about them was absurd. But in the area where I grew up, that doesn't happen any more. Children are now parcelled off to separate "faith schools" – children of Christians to the left, kids of Muslims to the right, and so on.

Some 70 per cent of the "free schools" established under Cameron are religious separatist schools. They are free to indoctrinate children into deranged ideas like creationism, Hell and the caste system. So Cameron's policies ensure that many more children will be raised in "segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values... "



Johann Hari: When will the soufflé of spin collapse? - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent
 
Manc Skipper said:
Johann Hari touches on this topic in describing the three biggest lies of the Cameron con.

" ...Deception Number Three: Multiculturalism. In a speech last weekend, Cameron argued that Britain has allowed some ethnic minorities to fall into "segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values." We should stop encouraging immigrants to be separate and to retain the culture of the country they came from, however patriarchal and fundamentalist it might be. Instead we should promote a "liberal society" where we all mix with each other in one shared culture.

I agree. I am the son of an immigrant and passionately in favour of immigration – but the best way to welcome immigrants is not to put them in a brightly coloured box called Exotic and Different, where they are free to oppress "their" women and gays.

But while Cameron preaches against ghettoising minorities publicly, he is actively promoting it in the most important and formative place of all – our schools. When I was a kid growing up in the London suburbs, I went to school with children from every kind of family – black, white, Muslim, Jewish, atheist. Because we all knew each other as real people, few of us became racist: we'd always remember our friends and know any stereotype about them was absurd. But in the area where I grew up, that doesn't happen any more. Children are now parcelled off to separate "faith schools" – children of Christians to the left, kids of Muslims to the right, and so on.

Some 70 per cent of the "free schools" established under Cameron are religious separatist schools. They are free to indoctrinate children into deranged ideas like creationism, Hell and the caste system. So Cameron's policies ensure that many more children will be raised in "segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values... "



Johann Hari: When will the soufflé of spin collapse? - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent
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Recent Faith Schools policy goes back as far as Tony Blair I'm afraid.

I remember when they were first being discussed a few years ago and there was a push for a small percentage of students being from different faiths. That would have helped with (not solved) integration among communities but apparently it was Blair (possibly under instruction from "above") who killed the integration element off.
 
Faith schools teach separatism to children. It's where the us vs. them mentality starts. Public schools in general do this to a certain degree especially where nationalism is injected into the daily routine (like the pledge in the U.S.), but faith schools teach a law that is separate from the law of the land. I think full time faith schools should be tossed out in favour of weekend schools, such as Sunday school.

As for smacking children, there's no cut and dry answer. Ideally you shouldn't have to smack your kid if you cultivate patience with them, but some situations are so severe that the lesson needs to be swift and well ingrained. Most of the time though, kids should get positive reinforcement in order to learn lessons, not negative.

Schools smacking children though... last time I checked that was not legal anymore in all of the western world. If a teacher smacks my kid they better have their address unlisted because I WILL find them and there will be retribution.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Recent Faith Schools policy goes back as far as Tony Blair I'm afraid.

I remember when they were first being discussed a few years ago and there was a push for a small percentage of students being from different faiths. That would have helped with (not solved) integration among communities but apparently it was Blair (possibly under instruction from "above") who killed the integration element off.
Click to expand...

I agree it started with Saint Tony, but Cameron's hypocrisy in action of preaching the opposite of his practice is as bad if not worse.
 
C4: 'Hate and Violence' documentary the latest in a long line of exposes (inc. video)

Youtube is already awash with the latest Dispatches expose from inside the belly of the crocodile:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dispatches+lessons+hate+violence&aq=f




It's pointed out in this companion topic that child abuse has been epidemic in Christian faith schools, suggesting a general problem amongst religious fanatics in a semi-remote bubble:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...-parents-and-corrective-child-punishment.html


However, when such outrages are exposed, most Christians are outraged at this affront to them and their values. Yet such foul behaviour is par for the course in Islamic culture, hence the barbaric stone-age Sharia 'values' so rampant in the Muslim world even today.

Indeed, the very institutions exposed have been imported from this netherworld of supremacism and oppression.




______________________________________________




In the past, from they and the BBC, we've had TWO editions of Undercover Mosque, secret cameras in Muslim summer schools, countless little news exposes of all kinds of Muslim nonsense and now child abuse in regular Muslim schools.

Anybody who still claims this to be a religion of peace is absolutely damn well deluded. Unfortunately those who are are in charge. (Those in charge have even ENDORSED such Jew and kuffar-hating places on OUR soil!) And to speak out is heresy against MultiCulti, 'fanning the flames of hatred' by heightening Muslim paranoia as they claim they're always the victim of smear campaigns!




Just some other TV and newspaper exposes now, to show whether or not that's actually true......

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...faith-britain-even-poison-their-own-kids.html
 
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Re: C4: 'Hate and Violence' documentary the latest in a long line of exposes (inc. vi

Absolutely terrible, with the kids deserving of punishment for the destructive thuggery, but I can't say I'm surprised either: BBC News - Three charged with Haywards Heath mosque arson

There's been an increase of mosque attacks all over the world, with one example being of vigilantes in Seville burying a pig at the site of a proposed mosque to drive away the development. Even though god-knows-what may be ranted in these totems to Islamic autarky, I don't want to see rows of burned-out buildings blot our landscape. We're not savages ourselves.


It would appear that a tandem increase in Muslim immigration to the West, Islamic supremacism and a raging militancy across the Muslim world itself is fuelling the tensions between they and all else in the world a lot more than a few thugs and yobs lighting their matches.
 
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Darn I missed it, will have to catch it later on 4OD.
 
You won't be able to:

Dispatches: Lessons in Hate and Violence will not be available on 4oD at this time, due to an ongoing police investigation concerning subjects featured in the programme
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Dispatches - Lessons in Hate and Violence - Channel 4

Though hopefully, unlike last time, it wouldn't be because the cops are investigating the tv station, just because Islamists were furious at some of what happens in their little worlds being exposed!





Try Youtube: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...ntary-latest-long-line-exposes-inc-video.html
 
William Rea said:
Darn I missed it, will have to catch it later on 4OD.
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I thought it was an excellent documentary and dealt with the issues without putting all Muslims in the same basket. There was certainly a lot brought out into the open both for outside agencies to look at and also for the parents who send their children to these establishments to be aware of because their public face was quite different from viewed practice. The teaching we saw was very cultist, trying to get the kids only listening to what they say, not other views.

I am with the ending faith schools. Scotland has I think just one independent Muslim school and as I wrote in a recent thread the amount of prejudice among the young on both sides is extremely limited through this shared school experience.

Anyway hope you enjoy the documentary.
 
William Rea said:
Darn I missed it, will have to catch it later on 4OD.
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I haven't watched it yet myself but I recorded it - I saw the first 5-10 minutes before going out to dinner last night and watched the teachers patrolling the Birmingham Madrassah while a senior student preached hatred of Hindu followers. That particular school was apparently inspected not long before (will check my facts when I watch it tomorrow).
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Recent Faith Schools policy goes back as far as Tony Blair I'm afraid.

I remember when they were first being discussed a few years ago and there was a push for a small percentage of students being from different faiths. That would have helped with (not solved) integration among communities but apparently it was Blair (possibly under instruction from "above") who killed the integration element off.
Click to expand...

This is true, however Cameron has not been slow in beginning to reverse a huge raft of the Labour government's legislation and programmes such as the school building programme. Why is he not reversing the faith schools policy? As a defender of multiculturalism, I am opposed to faith schools, in fact I'm opposed to any religious involvement in state education (Vive la France!). I believe that every state school should be multicultural. They should recognise, respect and study every culture that forms a part of their community, whether that is religious, ethnic or communitarian, but they should promote none. They should give special emphasis to none. They should enforce the practice of the rituals of none.

The fact is, I believe Cameron is disingenuous with his attacks on multiculturalism. Just like a whole raft of posters on DP, he uses the term as a convenient, means-nothing, political football in order to blow the dog whistle for his more right-wing and reactionary followers.
 
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