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Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

Goals which Che or Castro obviously attained, especially with all that shooting! And to trying and 'abolish poverty' is only relative. If you take the wealth from the rich man, too little to spread and improve the lot of the poor man, everybody's poor and 'equal'. The communist government can then claim 'job done'.

Communism's for dupes and socialism only seems to lack the true secret state police. And like Nazism and fascism, leftism promotes a bright and happy tomorrow with everybody well catered for, but delivers death and destruction and tension around the world.

Well, seeing how there has never been a true communist party I'd say that's innacurate. Also equating the entire "left" with socialism and communism isn't just lazy it's wrong.

Any economic system is problematic, capitalism and deregulation are responsible for slave wages in Asia (as well as the enviromental disasters within), and wars over diamonds (which have no intrinsic value) in Africa.
 
EUROPE political forum.

Well, the former socialist regime in the East German dictatorship persecuted homosexuals. Until 1989, their behavior was considered an "illness" that must be "cured". In order to do that, the harder cases were often thrown into psychiatry or "re-education" (torture and brainwashing). Homosexuality was not accepted.

Only after Reunification and reformation, the successors of the regime party changed that stance, because they realized they'd alienate too many Western leftists, who hold socially liberal opinions.
 
Well, seeing how there has never been a true communist party I'd say that's innacurate.

That was explored in the Communists Against Oppression topic too. I (and my Slavic family through experience, more importantly) know about Communism in action, which kicks the pulp theory into the long grass.

And plus, neo-Nazis claim true Nazism never killed any Jews - but I don't give them any credit for even their being nauseated at the results of their own extremist politics, going into flat denial as they do.


Also equating the entire "left" with socialism and communism isn't just lazy it's wrong.

I never did. As German Guy said, there are plenty of different people in the Left - commies, mainstream socialists who don't need to murder to impoverish a country, the 'PC' clowns, you name it.
 
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Well, the former socialist regime in the East German dictatorship persecuted homosexuals. Until 1989, their behavior was considered an "illness" that must be "cured". In order to do that, the harder cases were often thrown into psychiatry or "re-education" (torture and brainwashing). Homosexuality was not accepted.

Only after Reunification and reformation, the successors of the regime party changed that stance, because they realized they'd alienate too many Western leftists, who hold socially liberal opinions.

News? Current affairs?
 
News? Current affairs?

I don't understand what you want from me. Maybe you mistake me for RoP? Seems like that, because I don't have the impression your reply has not the slightest thing to do with what I wrote.
 
I don't understand what you want from me. Maybe you mistake me for RoP? Seems like that, because I don't have the impression your reply has not the slightest thing to do with what I wrote.

It's ok, sometimes I can be a little snarky. I'm not having a dig at you because I know from your posting style that you are very thoughtful and analyse issues well, just trying to make a point very concisely.

My original post was very much about the context of a liberal Europe in the current climate which I had hoped had been picked up; not about China, Cuba or past regimes which I know were appalling in the way they treated homosexuals. Even that treatment was based on cultural prejudice rather than any ideals of Socialism or Communism (seems that even dictators have to be slightly populist on these kinds of issues!).

I say that because the modern philosophy of the western European liberal and left has adopted equality of differing sexualities while conservative and far right elements still yearn for the days when they could go "Queer-bashing" with impunity. Nostalgia?
 
Even that treatment was based on cultural prejudice rather than any ideals of Socialism or Communism (seems that even dictators have to be slightly populist on these kinds of issues!)

Intriguing statement. In the Left, socialism and communism are not indivisible, whilst the purity of communism can even be derailed by the impurity of the people it oppresses!
 
Intriguing statement. In the Left, socialism and communism are not indivisible, whilst the purity of communism can even be derailed by the impurity of the people it oppresses!

You are quote mining and spinning, that is not what I said.
 
Ah. OK.

Came across that way. Very much that way. But now the record seems set straight.
 
My original post was very much about the context of a liberal Europe in the current climate which I had hoped had been picked up; not about China, Cuba or past regimes which I know were appalling in the way they treated homosexuals. Even that treatment was based on cultural prejudice rather than any ideals of Socialism or Communism (seems that even dictators have to be slightly populist on these kinds of issues!).

I say that because the modern philosophy of the western European liberal and left has adopted equality of differing sexualities while conservative and far right elements still yearn for the days when they could go "Queer-bashing" with impunity. Nostalgia?

You're right about the left in the West. Most of them have adopted individual freedom as a point as well.

But that was not the case in the traditional left (before the late 60s earliest), at least on the topic of sexual minorities. "The left" before then was pretty authoritarian and emphasized conformity. The left in the East Bloc never embraced this kind of "individualist leftism" as it did in the West until 1989/90, some of them maybe not even up to today.

The classic worker movement was not interested in sexual minority issues. Many traditional people from the working class are still prejudiced towards homosexuality. This issue has been brought into debate by the "intellectual" left, students' movement and so on, who care more about individual freedom and equality or environmentalism.

In Germany, this difference is reflected by different left-leaning parties: The Green Party is the party that directly followed the rise of individualist left movements in the late 60s and 70s. The center-left Social Democrats have adopted some of these stances too, but focus more on labor equality. And the far-left Left Party hardly ever mentions these stances, and their chairman was the only politican I saw making bigoted remarks in the campaign about the homosexuality of now Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle (who is libertarian) -- even the conservatives didn't do that.

When facing the choice between individual equality or environmentalist issues on one side, and improvement of worker rights on the other, the Greens (individualist left) will always chose the former. Vice versa the traditional left of the socialist Left Party: They couldn't care less about individual minority rights or environmental issues, as long as they get improvements for workers and unemployed.

The socialist East German dictatorship was a hellhole of pollution and environment destruction, and of minority bashing. Many traditional leftists focusing on the labor movement still have no problem with that, and many of the Left Party's supporters still buy into bigoted and hateful gay-bashing.

Since individual freedom is one of the most important topics for me, I could imagine (and have) voting for the Greens, but never for the socialist Left Party. They are not any less anti-individualist and authoritarian than the conservatives.
 
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"The left" before then was pretty authoritarian and emphasized conformity.

They still are. Only the parameters have changed a bit.

Political correctness - the awful truth

You must all think and do the same. You must want to remain in the EU and see it 'federalise' or your views count for nil. You must want a soft judicial system or your views count for nil, etc.

You can't slip a fag paper between the parties now because they're all so 'politically correct' and the new mind tyranny is imposed ever so politely. But it's still lethal to a nation and its people, especially brainwashed children who now know more about their teachers' views on 'social ishoos' than how to read, write and add up.


_____________________________

A short informal yet informative film:

 
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Seriously, RoP, can't you just read your yellow press and write them angry letters, than spamming this forum with silly hateful partisan slogans and simplifying rants?
 
You must all think and do the same. You must want to remain in the EU and see it 'federalise' or your views count for nil. You must want a soft judicial system or your views count for nil, etc.

...the new mind tyranny is imposed ever so politely.


Indeed German Guy! In -very much- deed!

I'm sure challenging my comment about contemporary Leftist attitudes can be done by banging the table and calling for silence! Very European but it's not too English.
 
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You're right about the left in the West. Most of them have adopted individual freedom as a point as well.

But that was not the case in the traditional left (before the late 60s earliest), at least on the topic of sexual minorities. "The left" before then was pretty authoritarian and emphasized conformity. The left in the East Bloc never embraced this kind of "individualist leftism" as it did in the West until 1989/90, some of them maybe not even up to today.

The classic worker movement was not interested in sexual minority issues. Many traditional people from the working class are still prejudiced towards homosexuality. This issue has been brought into debate by the "intellectual" left, students' movement and so on, who care more about individual freedom and equality or environmentalism.

In Germany, this difference is reflected by different left-leaning parties: The Green Party is the party that directly followed the rise of individualist left movements in the late 60s and 70s. The center-left Social Democrats have adopted some of these stances too, but focus more on labor equality. And the far-left Left Party hardly ever mentions these stances, and their chairman was the only politican I saw making bigoted remarks in the campaign about the homosexuality of now Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle (who is libertarian) -- even the conservatives didn't do that.

When facing the choice between individual equality or environmentalist issues on one side, and improvement of worker rights on the other, the Greens (individualist left) will always chose the former. Vice versa the traditional left of the socialist Left Party: They couldn't care less about individual minority rights or environmental issues, as long as they get improvements for workers and unemployed.

The socialist East German dictatorship was a hellhole of pollution and environment destruction, and of minority bashing. Many traditional leftists focusing on the labor movement still have no problem with that, and many of the Left Party's supporters still buy into bigoted and hateful gay-bashing.

Since individual freedom is one of the most important topics for me, I could imagine (and have) voting for the Greens, but never for the socialist Left Party. They are not any less anti-individualist and authoritarian than the conservatives.

Interesting, particularly your point about the Left Party in Germany.

In my opinion, in the UK, the breakdown of the "traditional left" from the late 70s onwards and the movement of socialist democrats towards the kind of individualist collectivism that you describe is perhaps one of the reasons that authoritarian racist and homophobic parties like the BNP have been able to recruit from the working class (individualist collectivism is perhaps a major oxymoron!!!).

It has been my experience in the distant past that you could stand in a Labour Party or Working Man's Club and hear the most outrageous racism and homophobia. You probably still can but I don't go to those kinds of places these days.
 
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Indeed German Guy! In -very much- deed!

I'm sure challenging my comment about contemporary Leftist attitudes can be done by banging the table and calling for silence! Very European but it's not too English.

Oh, a persecution complex, how very original.

Look, when you are posting intellectual diarrhea, nobody is going to tell you you are not allowed to do that. But you have to live with it when people are annoyed, and when people don't dignify that with a response, because it's intellectually simply not worth the effort.

As I saw in the signature of a poster here: "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
— Isaac Asimov
 
Oh, a persecution complex, how very original.

Look, when you are posting intellectual diarrhea, nobody is going to tell you you are not allowed to do that. But you have to live with it when people are annoyed, and when people don't dignify that with a response, because it's intellectually simply not worth the effort.

As I saw in the signature of a poster here: "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
— Isaac Asimov

Isaac Asimov was a genius, still sadly missed.
 
Here are my observations, and in studying different political thought I believe that many have come to think Communism dead at their own peril. Marx, it seems to me, has been blatantly misunderstood up to this point by the West. In the Communist Manifesto he argues that communism may only arise once capitalism has conquered the globe. Now, during the Cold War when Communist fears were at its highest, capitalism remained in the West and had yet to spread-out. Yet in recent years capitalism has spread throughout the globe and has transformed Russia and China, as well as currently countries such as Vietnam and the lot.

Now, Marx asserted that communism could only manifest in this way because once capitalism had spread to all, then could the superficial borders of nationality and ethnicity become minimized. As we have seen in the development of the EU, a single currency has been adopted and national identity in Europe is slowly becoming minimized.

The rise of China and India as capitalist economies has opened the door to the increase in the "labor pool" which has served well to decrease the wages of labor and gone far to press Western workers standard of living ever closer to that of the rising Chinese and other Asian workers.

Thus, I postulate that Marx's theory is very much alive and that at some point we may very well be faced with the two classes that Marx foretold. In the US we are surely seeing the division between the wealthy and poor increase rapidly. In Europe especially, it should seem the world would see the transformations and move toward communism first, as the continent has already taken the step of softening their borders.
 
Look, when you are posting intellectual diarrhea, nobody is going to tell you you are not allowed to do that. But you have to live with it when people are annoyed, and when people don't dignify that with a response, because it's intellectually simply not worth the effort.

I think you've overlooked the whole leisure and pleasure experience of using DP. Just cos I say a few things some people would rather not be said, it's hardly a persecution complex to react to your inherent childishness with the off-handedness it deserves.

If you don't like my posts, don't read 'em!



... and when people don't dignify that with a response, because it's intellectually simply not worth the effort.

You bothered. Either because it's not as worthless after all or there's some slight logical mismatch at work.



But as a token gesture, here's another film:

 
I say that because the modern philosophy of the western European liberal and left has adopted equality of differing sexualities while conservative and far right elements still yearn for the days when they could go "Queer-bashing" with impunity. Nostalgia?

Do you have any support for this claim?

The only "Queer bashing with impunity" of any major proportion appears to be going on in the Muslim world (and I don't want to get into that!), with the Left apparently not speaking out against it all that much. Making unsubstantiated claims of this sort in order to demonize the other side only ruins what can be an otherwise interesting discussion.
 
Do you have any support for this claim?

The only "Queer bashing with impunity" of any major proportion appears to be going on in the Muslim world (and I don't want to get into that!), with the Left apparently not speaking out against it all that much. Making unsubstantiated claims of this sort in order to demonize the other side only ruins what can be an otherwise interesting discussion.

I tried, but I cannot take this post seriously. After all the demonising of Libtards, Leftists and Islam that has been perpertrated on this forum you are questioning me on this point.

I suggest you type "homophobic attacks by far right groups" or any variant on that into Google to find out for yourself.
 
I cannot take this post seriously. After all the demonising of Libtards, Leftists and Islam that has been perpertrated on this forum you are questioning me on this point.

Just as I said about conforming to the new moral 'standards' or be invalidated....

You must all think and do the same. You must want to remain in the EU and see it 'federalise' or your views count for nil. You must want a soft judicial system or your views count for nil, etc.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...s-communism-controversy-4.html#post1059229414


Might have to reconsider the politeness part in my case though.
 
After all the demonising of Libtards, Leftists and Islam...

Reading the case histories prove all too often that the people and ideas discredit and demonise themselves - Liberals/Libtards because they've turned authoritarian (as Red Dave pointed out), Leftists because of the ravages of socialism, communism, arnarchism and all the other dogmas and Islam because.... well, the list competes with the last ten years' telephone directories combined for length! (Ballpark estimate anyway! It's probably more 20 or 30...)



http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...es-and-vested-interests-6.html#post1059225863
 
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