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Thread: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

  1. #71
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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public View Post
    Never said you did endorse them, though your continual statements that every single Communist government wasn't doing it properly suggests sympathy or a validation of what should be left in the past.

    Pulp fiction's always trumped by the results. And as half my own family lived through communist horrors in Poland, I know whose word I prefer to take over what it was all like.
    Are you talking about the soviet or German invasion because Nazi=/= communist. And it's not a validation no pure system has ever existed. You have been treating every post as if I'm advocating any system (which I'm not) I'm only pointing out that the issues you bring up with communism are 1. Not exclusive to communism and 2. Not what it would have to be necessarily. I'm only arguing the economics as I have said, it's never played out well which is why I don't advocate it but I also don't pretend that capitalism= good for everyone.
    "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mould-breaking champions exist as living proof to those who need it that the tyranny of 'the rat race' is not yet final." - Hunter S. Thompson

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    My grandmother lived on a farm which was over-run by the Communists in 1939 and was later absorbed into the Ukraine under Stalin's ethnic cleansing policies. The village is now just rolling hills and forest. She had to undergo constant Stalinist-Leninist brainwashing and saw people gradually disappear, taken away by the NKVD if they weren't seen to fully convert. These were the same people who shot countless Poles, including the Polish officers at Katyn.

    Then the Germans came and the scattering of her family was complete. Ironically, she ended up on a farm in Austria and actually worried a little less than she did under the 'failed economists' of the Communists. Amongst her fellow refugee friends here was a woman who had to endure a Siberian march.


    1. Not exclusive to communism
    Happened with Nazism too.


    2. Not what it would have to be necessarily.
    They've had all the chances in the world to prove it. It turned out the only way it could.



    I'm only arguing the economics as I have said, it's never played out well which is why I don't advocate it
    Suppose you had the totalitarian state and mass murder plus the economic success? To a great extent the model for that is Nazi Germany.

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    And it's not a validation no pure system has ever existed.
    Then just condemn communism and find a strong brand of socialism to believe in.

    Communism's a soiled brand. Don't try rehabilitating it, else people may only think you want to regress to the '80s and back.

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    RoP I think this article accurately refutes your assumptions. What happened with the USSR is quite accurately described as State Capitalism, not at all what Marx proposed. Try and read it.

    Was the USSR Communist? | A Division by Zer0
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public View Post
    My grandmother lived on a farm which was over-run by the Communists in 1939 and was later absorbed into the Ukraine under Stalin's ethnic cleansing policies. The village is now just rolling hills and forest. She had to undergo constant Stalinist-Leninist brainwashing and saw people gradually disappear, taken away by the NKVD if they weren't seen to fully convert. These were the same people who shot countless Poles, including the Polish officers at Katyn.

    Then the Germans came and the scattering of her family was complete. Ironically, she ended up on a farm in Austria and actually worried a little less than she did under the 'failed economists' of the Communists. Amongst her fellow refugee friends here was a woman who had to endure a Siberian march.




    Happened with Nazism too.




    They've had all the chances in the world to prove it. It turned out the only way it could.





    Suppose you had the totalitarian state and mass murder plus the economic success? To a great extent the model for that is Nazi Germany.
    Thank you for the explaination I really was curious about the circumstances. I don't think we have as much disagreement as you think. My whole argument is that if it happened without the totalitarian state and consequences you mentioned then the system in its self wouldn't be very different from any system. I know how things have turned out, it's a system that's far too easy to abuse. All I mean is that people advocating for communism do have good intentions, no one wants it to become what it has (which seems to be an eventuality judging by the past).
    "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mould-breaking champions exist as living proof to those who need it that the tyranny of 'the rat race' is not yet final." - Hunter S. Thompson

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    My contention that Communism neccessitates a dictator and repression has been proved by history. You can call for absolute equality and no big bad bossman to focus all your hate on, but who runs the bossless society? Lenin knew who the boyo was and set the template for Communism in practice.

    I read Alexa's essay and agree that the USSR was exploitative and ridden by its own perverse homemade class system. But Marx was a crank who believed that other classes were there to be fought and crushed, so no wonder the quakery was magnified and his scapegoat mentality taken to its logical extreme.


    Russian communism ceased to exist as soon as Stalin came to power.
    Lenin and others were killing and hating long before then. Not that there were no grievances, but communists were failures because they appealed to the worst in peoples' base instinct to go and hang someone they didn't like.

    You can say anything about a doctrine when it's still on paper. But when you run it through its paces you then judge by what you get.

    It's easy to say 'Oooo, that was never proper Communism', be the number of Communist governments one or two-hundred. But on that basis, would YOU take the risk that a new Communist government allowed somewhere would buck all trends and suddenly be all nice and fluffy?!

    Me neither.
    Last edited by Republic_Of_Public; 01-20-11 at 03:55 PM.

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    However, I would suppose you disagree with GE selling jet engine technology to China?
    No, not at all. We do a great deal of trade with China and they are not yet on any enemies list.

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    RoP I think this article accurately refutes your assumptions. What happened with the USSR is quite accurately described as State Capitalism, not at all what Marx proposed. Try and read it.

    Was the USSR Communist? | A Division by Zer0
    What absolute and utter garbage that website is.

    Tell me the truth, Alexa. Do you actually believe what is on that page???

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, not at all. We do a great deal of trade with China and they are not yet on any enemies list.
    Then you are one of the first I have met. Even many hardcore conservatives on this site, who rail against government intervention into business, have been calling for the government to stop GE from transferring this technology.

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    Re: Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_H View Post
    Thank you for the explaination I really was curious about the circumstances. I don't think we have as much disagreement as you think. My whole argument is that if it happened without the totalitarian state and consequences you mentioned then the system in its self wouldn't be very different from any system. I know how things have turned out, it's a system that's far too easy to abuse. All I mean is that people advocating for communism do have good intentions, no one wants it to become what it has (which seems to be an eventuality judging by the past).
    People advocating Communism have good intentions?? Whatever made you think that?

    Where is the evidence?

    The same 'good intentions' theory could be said for Nazism, Fascism, Islamism, Racism, or and of the other murderous isms that have plagued the world during the past century. The idea that Communist supporters had good intentions is horribly naive, which is why these supporters were referred to as "useful idiots".

    They were also dangerous idiots as well.

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