Muslim imam who lectures on non-violence in Germany is arrested for beating up his...

Republic_Of_Public said:

All a question of perception. But it hardly does your case much good to accuse someone of hate before doing it yourself just because you don't understand a stance straight off the bat.

Click to expand...

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- I've told you and shown you but you still refuse to believe anything other than what you want, as shown by the Laila thing. But you still accuse me of the same.

Click to expand...

Republic_Of_Public said:

You've told me time and again I'm not worth talking to, I'm on 'ignore', etc, fair enough. If you keep saying it's not worth your while getting through to me, alright.

Click to expand...

Republic_Of_Public said:

But flying off the handle and going into your usual rage will only make me want to match you hate for hate and even I think that's ultimately futile.

Click to expand...

I've explained myself twice, you got two strikes. After that comes sarcasm.

Click to expand...

Occassionally, like your last few responses, your posts are clear and coherent - though we may disagree.

Click to expand...

Fair enough - you have your version, I have mine.

Click to expand...

Infinite Chaos said:

There are many things that some muslims and some non muslims think are acceptable because they are in their holy book, thankfully in a secular society it's not - as Djoop showed some pages ago when he posted that the beaten wife now had a lawyer and protection.
I remain confident in Western Society and Ideals - that we will westernise those that come here and integrate before they could ever change us. Those that do not wish to integrate should either fall foul of our laws protecting all our freedoms or seek to find life elsewhere.

What we should not do however is generalise and demonise that ALL muslims or any other ethnic / religious group behaves in a particular way without proof they do.

Click to expand...

Infinite Chaos said:

There are many things that some muslims and some non muslims think are acceptable because they are in their holy book, thankfully in a secular society it's not - as Djoop showed some pages ago when he posted that the beaten wife now had a lawyer and protection.
I remain confident in Western Society and Ideals - that we will westernise those that come here and integrate before they could ever change us. Those that do not wish to integrate should either fall foul of our laws protecting all our freedoms or seek to find life elsewhere.

What we should not do however is generalise and demonise that ALL muslims or any other ethnic / religious group behaves in a particular way without proof they do.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

I'm not as optimistic as you. Britain now has five sharia courts. Sections of several major european cities are being patroled by muslim gangs enforcing sharia on the streets. Wanna' talk about comparative birthrates now?

Click to expand...

They lay down judgments which can be given full legal status if approved in national law courts...

The sharia courts in the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal are recognised as courts under the Arbitration Act. This law, which covers Jewish Beth Din courts, gives legal powers to a tribunal if all parties involved accept its authority...

The system is purely voluntary so if people don't like it they can go elsewhere...

Click to expand...

'We can't have a situation where people choose the system of law which they feel gives them the best outcome. Everyone should equal under one law.'

Click to expand...

Whovian said:

This is a very good argument against sharia law, imho, other than the whole 'it's unfair to women, outdated, etc.' things, which is also a good reason NOT to allow it.

Click to expand...

Whovian said:

Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors | Mail Online
The linked piece says 85... but it also says this...



Of course, this is the kicker for me...


This is a very good argument against sharia law, imho, other than the whole 'it's unfair to women, outdated, etc.' things, which is also a good reason NOT to allow it.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

The reality is muslim groups in europe seem to constitute a closed society. Anyone who feels a muslim woman can "freely" choose a british court to get a divorce without incurring difficulties with her community is being naive to the extreme.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

The reality is muslim groups in europe seem to constitute a closed society. Anyone who feels a muslim woman can "freely" choose a british court to get a divorce without incurring difficulties with her community is being naive to the extreme.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

Yes, but saying that allows them to feel better about themselves as they condemn muslim women to their chattelhood.

Click to expand...

Objective Voice said:

politics has nothing to do with physical assault upon anyone let alone a man's wife.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

Actually, politics has everything to do with such an act because by very definition, politics involves the way we view the establishment of behavior as acceptable or not acceptable.

Click to expand...

Objective Voice said:

Question (because I stopped reading after post #5), what's the point of this thread? I mean, if it's to show the hypocricy of a Muslim Iman who gave speeches on anti-violence and religious tolerence then went home, beat his wife and was subsequently arrested, then point taken. Thanks for sharing.

But if it's to promote more anti-Muslim/anti-Islamic rhetoric and connect so-called liberal politics with this unlawful and immoral act, then you've failed because politics has nothing to do with physical assault upon anyone let alone a man's wife.

Click to expand...

No. We're suggesting european secular humanists are incapable of assimilating muslims, or enforcing their laws.

Dutch said:

Europe has a problem, they cannot produce enough workers to keep their societies functional. They need the muslims for the same reasons we need the mexicans......workers. They're caught between a rock and a hard place. Multiculturalism is one answer to the problem. All they have to do to make it work is to close their eyes and pretend everything is just fine.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

What is interesting, and perhaps even ironic, is that birth rates are so closely tied to the status of women in a society. The higher the status, the lower the birth rates, so the situation in Europe is one of countries where women enjoy very high status and so limititing their reproduction resulting in the falling birthrates, and the women of low status providing the laborers necessary to keep the economies going. Keeping women as chattel results in more children, therefore more potential cheap labor.

Multiculturalism is the voodoo sold to the well-off in Europe as a feel good pill so they can rationalize away their lack of true concern for human rights.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

No. We're suggesting european secular humanists are incapable of assimilating muslims, or enforcing their laws.

Click to expand...

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm no apologist - I will usually defend those who are being attacked with no good reason. Anyhow - if you wish either you or he can clarify how "many" Dutch is actually speaking about - when we clearly see later on yet more characterisations from both you and him.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

I'm not as optimistic as you. Britain now has five sharia courts.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

-- Sections of several major european cities are being patroled by muslim gangs enforcing sharia on the streets.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

--Wanna' talk about comparative birthrates now?

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

I find it interested how often comments such as the one Dutch made are mischaracterized by those with an agenda

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

of their own in such a way as to portray them as saying "all" when they so clearly said "many". Those whose agenda it is to minimize, to deny and to rationalize are quilty of the same sort of dishonesty as those who do say all, and the number of posters in this sub forum who indulge in the apologia is greater than those who actually do refer to all Muslims in their criticisms.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

Those British who support these sharia courts are displaying quite clearly that instead of Muslims adapting to British ways, it is Britain adapting to Muslim ways. They do not support free speech, they accept this unequal protection under the law, they allow the creation of harems, and give every indication that THEY are the ones changing, and not those they are enabling through their appeasement.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

-- so the situation in Europe is one of countries where women enjoy very high status --

Click to expand...

Infinite Chaos said:

There's that "Europe is a country" approach that demonstrates the total opposite of informed intelligent research.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

I never said Europe is a country.

Again, you can always consider honesty as an appropriate avenue of discussion.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

I don't think that, myself. If they were actual secular humanists, they wouldn't be multiculturalists.

Click to expand...

Dutch said:

You can be both a secular humanist and a believer in designer tribalism. source

Designer tribalism
Sandall coined the term designer tribalism to describe the attitudes of those western anthropologists (e.g. Margaret Mead) who constructed an idyllic but imaginary past for tribal cultures. Designer tribalism is the end result of a process where primitive ways of life (e.g. human sacrifice and clan warfare) become forgotten and such cultures end up being morally transfigured.

Designer tribalism praises primitive cultures as being deeply in touch with nature and living in harmony with animals and plants. Unfortunately for this point of view, Sandall points out that some cultures were far from friendly to the environment, e.g. the Māori in New Zealand were responsible for massive deforestation and the extinction of several indigenous species of birds. Similarly, the religion, art and music of tribal cultures are held to be deeply meaningful and profound. The corresponding aspects of western civilization are usually denigrated and despised, as are western science and technology.

In an appendix in his book, Sandall describes the Disneyfication of the noble savage, a term that encapsulates many of his beliefs in just a few sentences:

"Sentimentalism begets puerility. The ruthless scalpers of yesterday become Loving Persons. One-time ferocious fighters are discovered to be Artists at Heart. Hollywood becomes interested. ... Soon the primitive is elevated above the civilized. ... The moral transfiguration of real-life tribal culture into the imaginary landscape of romantic primitivism is now complete. The defining texts of this last stage are two: The Man-Eating Myth by William Arens, an influential book denying that cannibalism ever existed; and the 1995 Disney epic: Pocahontas."

Click to expand...

Infinite Chaos said:

So what? Apparently the first Sharia Court has been in operation since 1982 and Jewish Beth Din courts have been around in the UK for at least 200 or more years. Same with the US.

Click to expand...

It's pretty hard to provide the protections afforded women in western society in a sharia court.

Are there not gangs of immigrant gangs enforcing gang culture in the US? However, as for "enforcing sharia on the streets" - you'll have to prove that.

Click to expand...

By Ben Bower
Sharia law may still be an alien concept to some Westerners, but it’s staring gay Europeans right in the face – and pointing toward a chilling future for all free people. Pim Fortuyn saw all this coming years ago; most of today’s European leaders still refuse to see it even though it’s right before their eyes.

Not very long ago, Oslo was an icy Shangri-la of Scandinavian self-discipline, governability, and respect for the law. But in recent years, there have been grim changes, including a rise in gay-bashings. The summer of 2006 saw an unprecedented wave of them. The culprits, very disproportionately, are young Muslim men.

It’s not just Oslo, of course. The problem afflicts most of Western Europe. And anecdotal evidence suggests that such crimes are dramatically underreported. My own partner chose not to report his assault. I urged him to, but he protested that it wouldn’t make any difference. He was probably right.

The reason for the rise in gay bashings in Europe is clear – and it’s the same reason for the rise in rape. As the number of Muslims in Europe grows, and as the proportion of those Muslims who were born and bred in Europe also grows, many Muslim men are more inclined to see Europe as a part of the umma (or Muslim world), to believe that they have the right and duty to enforce sharia law in the cities where they live, and to recognize that any aggression on their part will likely go unpunished. Such men need not be actively religious in order to feel that they have carte blanche to assault openly gay men and non-submissive women, whose freedom to live their lives as they wish is among the most conspicuous symbols of the West’s defiance of holy law.......

Click to expand...

Anytime.

Click to expand...

Speaking of "agendas" - you're a right one to talk.

Click to expand...

I'm no apologist - I will usually defend those who are being attacked with no good reason. Anyhow - if you wish either you or he can clarify how "many" Dutch is actually speaking about - when we clearly see later on yet more characterisations from both you and him.

Click to expand...

Gardener said:

Those British who support these sharia courts are displaying quite clearly that instead of Muslims adapting to British ways, it is Britain adapting to Muslim ways. They do not support free speech, they accept this unequal protection under the law, they allow the creation of harems, and give every indication that THEY are the ones changing, and not those they are enabling through their appeasement.

Click to expand...