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Turks rally in Istanbul in memory of 1915 mass killings of Armenians!

kaya'08

kaya'08

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Human rights activists and artists in Istanbul commemorated the 1915-17 killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks for the first time Saturday, breaking with a near century-old Turkish taboo.

The Istanbul branch of the Human Rights Association, or İHD, organized a rally attended by about 100 people on the steps of the Haydarpaşa train station from where the first convoy of 220 deported Armenians left on April 24, 1915.

Under the slogan "Never Again" and the watchful eye of the police, demonstrators carried black and white photos of some of the deportees, most of whom never returned.

Police kept at bay a group of counter-demonstrators including former diplomats waving the Turkish flag.

Turks in Istanbul commemorate 1915 killings of Armenians - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

turks-in-first-commemorate-massacre-of-armenians-2010-04-24_l.jpg
 
kaya'08 said:
Human rights activists and artists in Istanbul commemorated the 1915-17 killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks for the first time Saturday, breaking with a near century-old Turkish taboo.

The Istanbul branch of the Human Rights Association, or İHD, organized a rally attended by about 100 people on the steps of the Haydarpaşa train station from where the first convoy of 220 deported Armenians left on April 24, 1915.

Under the slogan "Never Again" and the watchful eye of the police, demonstrators carried black and white photos of some of the deportees, most of whom never returned.

Police kept at bay a group of counter-demonstrators including former diplomats waving the Turkish flag.

Turks in Istanbul commemorate 1915 killings of Armenians - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

turks-in-first-commemorate-massacre-of-armenians-2010-04-24_l.jpg
Click to expand...

They are a very brave bunch, the IHD. If the police can maintain a peaceful end to the event, next year may see more in attendance and the subject might be raised and discussed more rationally, more often. It's a step in the right direction.
 
I must say I have to respect the majority of changes in turkish policy under the AKP. Especially regarding minorities in Turkey.
 
Good on you Turkey:)
 
I also applaud them. I agree with Andalublue. Let's hope this encourages more to join in next year.
 
alexa said:
I also applaud them. I agree with Andalublue. Let's hope this encourages more to join in next year.
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Have you noted the deafening silence of the Islamophobes to this post?
 
Andalublue said:
Have you noted the deafening silence of the Islamophobes to this post?
Click to expand...

One of my first memories is being told of the Holocaust. It is something I have known about since I was tiny but I am embarrassed to say that I only found out about the Armenian genocide when I met my friend Mira on this board - she is Armenian.

It is a disgrace that there is so much denial of the first of our most recent genocides. Even the numbers killed fluctuate enormously. I understand that probably half of all Armenian's died.

More embarrassing of all the UK is one of three countries in genocide denial over this. The other two are the United States and Israel.

Look at the pathetic memorials we have for this

Armenian Genocide Memorials -- United Kingdom

It looks like whether the US acknowledges it stems on Politics, though it may be getting there.

Armenians join together again to remember genocide of 1915 - latimes.com

It is long overdue that this is properly recognised as the crime against humanity any genocide is. Genocide denial of any genocide is not acceptable and Armenian's deserve respect and the right to honour their dead and for what was done to them to be recognised, just like any other people who suffered such a thing.
 
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Andalublue said:
Have you noted the deafening silence of the Islamophobes to this post?
Click to expand...

We should rally those islamophobes up and send them in the desert neh?!
I'm sure it will please Armenians that you use this topic to forward your political views.
 
alexa said:
.

Look at the pathetic memorials we have for this

Armenian Genocide Memorials -- United Kingdom
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I realised when I popped out to the shop just now that I had put that really badly.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to these memorials and to the people who put them up so that this be remembered.

That there is nothing more substantial just illustrates that Britain herself has turned a blind eye to this crime against humanity.
 
Djoop said:
We should rally those islamophobes up and send them in the desert neh?!
I'm sure it will please Armenians that you use this topic to forward your political views.
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It would be nice if, just for once, a progressive and hopeful event taking place in a Moslem country got some recognition. I'm sure all Armenians will be heartened by this chink in the collective denial. It's a good news story for all; shame you couldn't recognise it through your partisan spectacles.
 
alexa said:
I realised when I popped out to the shop just now that I had put that really badly.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to these memorials and to the people who put them up so that this be remembered.

That there is nothing more substantial just illustrates that Britain herself has turned a blind eye to this crime against humanity.
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Alexa, Britain can't even memorialise the victims of their own imperial brutality. Where is the memorial to the victims of the British Empire's very own invention, the concentration camp. The Boer victims of that shoddy episode don't receive any recognition, nor do the victims of the brutality of the Indian Mutiny. None of this should come as much of a surprise.
 
Andalublue said:
Alexa, Britain can't even memorialise the victims of their own imperial brutality. Where is the memorial to the victims of the British Empire's very own invention, the concentration camp. The Boer victims of that shoddy episode don't receive any recognition, nor do the victims of the brutality of the Indian Mutiny. None of this should come as much of a surprise.
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Well we are dealing here with the Armenian Genocide

Denial of a Genocide is a very serious business. We hear all the time that we must not forget the Holocaust but the Armenian Genocide was apparently one of the things which Hitler took note of for his treatment of the Jews.

Given that this was a systematic killing of the Armenian people it does not look good on us to deny this took place purely for political reasons - Britain at the time I think was somewhat aware of it - that was from things I read last night in Wiki.

Obviously now the term Genocide has been coined more and more will probably be asked to be accepted. The Irish being one.
 
This is just a small part but lets you know we knew things were way off
On May 24, 1915, during World War I, the Allied Powers (Britain, France, and Russia) jointly issued a statement in which they said that for about a month the Kurd and Turkish populations of Armenia has been massacring Armenians with the connivance and often assistance of Ottoman authorities and that the Allied Powers would hold personally responsible for crimes against humanity all members of the Ottoman Government, implicated in such crimes.
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide]Recognition of the Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


MP's from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales do recognise this genocide so hopefully it will not be long until the UK itself does the right thing.


Armenian News - UK MPs from Scotland and Northern Ireland Recognize Armenian Genocide
 
alexa said:
One of my first memories is being told of the Holocaust. It is something I have known about since I was tiny but I am embarrassed to say that I only found out about the Armenian genocide when I met my friend Mira on this board - she is Armenian.

It is a disgrace that there is so much denial of the first of our most recent genocides. Even the numbers killed fluctuate enormously. I understand that probably half of all Armenian's died.

More embarrassing of all the UK is one of three countries in genocide denial over this. The other two are the United States and Israel.

Look at the pathetic memorials we have for this

Armenian Genocide Memorials -- United Kingdom

It looks like whether the US acknowledges it stems on Politics, though it may be getting there.

Armenians join together again to remember genocide of 1915 - latimes.com

It is long overdue that this is properly recognised as the crime against humanity any genocide is. Genocide denial of any genocide is not acceptable and Armenian's deserve respect and the right to honour their dead and for what was done to them to be recognised, just like any other people who suffered such a thing.
Click to expand...

Yes it was a horrific chapter in what is generally a very encouraging history in terms of Ottoman achievements both politically and socially.

I am excited that Turks are cutting the BS and basically saying "if we deny it now, this horrific event will only be pushed onto the next generation who will have the inevitable task of denying it too". Modern day Turks shouldn't be bogged down by the actions of a totally former Turkish state, ideology, government and generation. Neither should Germans, and of course they admitted to there actions so they dont, Nazi Germany committed the genocide, not Germany, as far as im concerned.

Not only is this a leap in the right direction, but the government didn't jump in with tear gas and shields, or water canons and Molotov cocktails. They just kept the peace. What i saw here was a true sign of the beginning of the birth of a true European, Parliamentary Democracy......

and everybody wins!
 
Andalublue said:
It would be nice if, just for once, a progressive and hopeful event taking place in a Moslem country got some recognition. I'm sure all Armenians will be heartened by this chink in the collective denial. It's a good news story for all; shame you couldn't recognise it through your partisan spectacles.
Click to expand...

Islamaphobes hate Turkey. Every time the argument comes up "Muslims cannot live under a Democracy which practices the rights of its people and respects the privacy of its citizens" with a "liberal and uncensored media" and liberal "social and cultural expectations", Turkey pops up and bang. The argument is dead.

Hell, that country has Europe's/Asia's biggest nude hotel and buying alcoholic drinks/smoking is OK at the age of 16, which is more than what i can say for the US, not to mention controlled legalized substances is on the political agenda.

Turkey doesnt have a perfect Democracy.....far from it. At LEAST we can say it is learning from its mistakes!
 
Things are changing in Turkey but I reckon they'd best not 'do a Holland' and fly to the other extreme. Too much liberalism is as bad as too little and it could unsettle a nation I understand to be deeply conservative.

And as for Andalablue's much-worn 'Islamophobe' remarks, I'd say 'Islamorealists' such as myself have no reason to thunder on about holohoaxes and suchlike this topic. As with the Russians, difficult things have to be faced up to from the past and it's good that Turkish nationals are faced with something their past government did (so long as noses aren't rubbed in too gratuitously).




But if Andy wants some 'Islamophobe' material from the likes of me then I'm more than happy to oblige. There's stacks to choose from, stuff like this:


I have been the proud recipient of a death threat! Some Muslim has got the needle that I've dared discuss the murderous nature of Islam by my mentioning Hezbollah Special Forces 2 in a video. That's the game which glories in the mass murder of Jews in the name of Allah and is given to schoolchildren by the Palestinian government.

LETTER TO MY INBOX:

haqqismyreligion has sent you a message:

delete this [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR0R-O8iW_E&feature=watch_response"]YouTube- Mark Collett's Pacman vs Muslim Genocide Game[/nomedia]
!!!

remember van gogh

___________

Anyone else find it ironic that I get threatened with lethal and deranged violence for daring to point out facets of the Religion Of Peace? Especially as my main topic was about Mark Collett anyway!

Twot!

I popped over to the cheeky chappie and asked him if he wouldn't mind killing his woman instead. Bullies like him have plenty of practice at that kind of thing:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHyN_nhIk4A"]YouTube- Prophet Muhammad says "Kill Your Daughters"![/nomedia]


The Lad himself: YouTube - haqqismyreligion's Channel


I'll keep the board abreast of any eruptions. But seeing as my comment has already been deleted from his Youtube homepage, I'm sure I could have no hesitation in warming up the old 'holohoax' vehicle again!
 
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Andalublue said:
It would be nice if, just for once, a progressive and hopeful event taking place in a Moslem country got some recognition. I'm sure all Armenians will be heartened by this chink in the collective denial. It's a good news story for all; shame you couldn't recognise it through your partisan spectacles.
Click to expand...
I have not commented on the event, just on the fact you did what you now falsely accuse me of; make nasty partisan comments on the back of dead Armernians.

It's indeed a good thing when countries adopt democratic principles, and that's why it's blatantly obvious you have positioned the Islamophobes on the wrong side. Of course they would support Turkey moving in this direction, it's the apologisers and appeasers who wake up in a world where they do not have to apologise for their position on the Armenian genocide for once. It's not up to 'islamophobes' to reject the superiority of secular democracies, when Turkey adopts more of these priciples it could only prove them right. Those who do not want Turkey to join the EU don't have a list of demands, it's the other side that demands Turkey to make changes.
 
Well nobody is saying there isn't an issue with Muslims in the UK, but there is no problem with the secular ones.
You know it is kind of freaky when your walking down the road and there's a guy with a big beard and a cap preaching to us morales and the magnificence of Shariah and the "purity it brings". Such people are having a detrimental affect on British society because they are radicalising Muslims and there views are obviously counter to everything that makes us British.

But these people are in the minority and if we dont pay attention to them we cant go wrong.
 
kaya'08 said:
Well nobody is saying there isn't an issue with Muslims in the UK, but there is no problem with the secular ones.
You know it is kind of freaky when your walking down the road and there's a guy with a big beard and a cap preaching to us morales and the magnificence of Shariah and the "purity it brings". Such people are having a detrimental affect on British society because they are radicalising Muslims and there views are obviously counter to everything that makes us British.

But these people are in the minority and if we dont pay attention to them we cant go wrong.
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Seriously Kaya, have you ever walked down the road and had this happen to you?

I certainly have not. Never seen anything of the sort.
 
alexa said:
Seriously Kaya, have you ever walked down the road and had this happen to you?

I certainly have not. Never seen anything of the sort.
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I had it on Sunday. A lonely figure in the town centre preaching the Christian word of God! boy was he lonely:)

Paul
 
alexa said:
Seriously Kaya, have you ever walked down the road and had this happen to you?

I certainly have not. Never seen anything of the sort.
Click to expand...

The only time I ever saw a guy with a beard and a cap preaching to us morales in the streets of Paris, it was a Christian Mormon from America:)
 
Djoop said:
I have not commented on the event, just on the fact you did what you now falsely accuse me of; make nasty partisan comments on the back of dead Armernians.

It's indeed a good thing when countries adopt democratic principles, and that's why it's blatantly obvious you have positioned the Islamophobes on the wrong side. Of course they would support Turkey moving in this direction, it's the apologisers and appeasers who wake up in a world where they do not have to apologise for their position on the Armenian genocide for once. It's not up to 'islamophobes' to reject the superiority of secular democracies, when Turkey adopts more of these priciples it could only prove them right. Those who do not want Turkey to join the EU don't have a list of demands, it's the other side that demands Turkey to make changes.
Click to expand...

I didn't think my comment was in any way "nasty". I said "Have you noted the deafening silence of the Islamophobes to this post?" That is not aggressive, insulting or attacking any individual poster.

Anyway, I am aware that this has derailed this thread, I'm sorry about that. If you want to take the issue elsewhere, let's do that but leave this thread to remain on track discussing the Armenian/Turkish issue and not the old Islamophobia issue.

Interestingly, it's not the AKP and its supporters who are the strongest and most vociferous genocide deniers in Turkey. It's the secular, ultra-nationalists of the MHP who get most rabid in their refutation of any governmental policy of systematic elimination of the Armenians.

Does anyone know the answer to a question I've never got clear? What do the various Armenian lobbies want Turkey to do beyond accept that a "genocide" did indeed take place. If, in the remote possibility that the Turkish president or PM comes out and apologises for the role of the then Ottoman government in the killings, what then? Would that one admission end the entire controversy? If not, what more would the Armenians wish the modern Turkish state to do to make amends for the actions of the ancien régime?
 
Andalublue said:
I didn't think my comment was in any way "nasty". I said "Have you noted the deafening silence of the Islamophobes to this post?" That is not aggressive, insulting or attacking any individual poster.
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Those comments create a hostile atmosphere against people who criticize Islam, this world is hostile enough when it comes to criticizing Islam as it is.
Anyway, I am aware that this has derailed this thread, I'm sorry about that. If you want to take the issue elsewhere, let's do that but leave this thread to remain on track discussing the Armenian/Turkish issue and not the old Islamophobia issue.
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fair enough.
Interestingly, it's not the AKP and its supporters who are the strongest and most vociferous genocide deniers in Turkey. It's the secular, ultra-nationalists of the MHP who get most rabid in their refutation of any governmental policy of systematic elimination of the Armenians.
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Strangely enough that is the case and someone should ask them how they align the two. It doesn't change the position of the ultra nationalists on the European side though, like I said; they don't have a list of demands.

Does anyone know the answer to a question I've never got clear? What do the various Armenian lobbies want Turkey to do beyond accept that a "genocide" did indeed take place. If, in the remote possibility that the Turkish president or PM comes out and apologises for the role of the then Ottoman government in the killings, what then? Would that one admission end the entire controversy? If not, what more would the Armenians wish the modern Turkish state to do to make amends for the actions of the ancien régime?
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Just a wild guess, Armenia claims parts of eastern Turkey (which might explain why the MHP is so persistent in denying the genocide).
 
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Djoop said:
Just a wild guess, Armenia claims parts of eastern Turkey (which might explain why the MHP is so persistent in denying the genocide).
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Ancient Armenia at various times occupied territory across Anatolia and the Middle East. This map shows where they have, at various times, claimed as their homeland...

oldmap.jpg


I haven't read of specific claims to re-occupy parts of their historic homelands, perhaps you have and can link to them. If they do, they might claim territory from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Israel and Azerbaijan. Realistically, that's not going to get very far, is it?
 
Andalublue said:
Ancient Armenia at various times occupied territory across Anatolia and the Middle East. This map shows where they have, at various times, claimed as their homeland...

oldmap.jpg


I haven't read of specific claims to re-occupy parts of their historic homelands, perhaps you have and can link to them. If they do, they might claim territory from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Israel and Azerbaijan. Realistically, that's not going to get very far, is it?
Click to expand...

Despite the obvious benefits of the agreement - including huge economic gains for poor, landlocked Armenia and a boost to Turkey's EU credentials - both Armenia and Turkey have instead chosen to postpone further negotiations, with the on-going feud over the World War I mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks and the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh at the heart of the dispute.

Suspended accords highlight deep fissures in Turkey-Armenia relations | World | Deutsche Welle | 23.04.2010
 
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