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Dawkins and Hitchens call for Arrest of Pope when he visits UK

Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

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The pope should stand trial
Why is anyone surprised when Christopher Hitchens and I call for the prosecution of the pope? There is a clear case to answer

Sexual abuse of children is not unique to the Roman Catholic church, and Joseph Ratzinger is not one of those priests who raped altar boys while in a position of dominance and trust. But as so often it is the subsequent cover-ups, even more than the original crimes, that do most to discredit an institution, and here the pope is in real trouble.

Pope Benedict XVI is the head of the institution as a whole, but we can't blame the present head for what was done before his watch. Except that in his particular case, as archbishop of Munich and as Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (what used to be called the Inquisition), the very least you can say is that there is a case for him to answer. See, for example, three articles by my colleague Christopher Hitchens here, here, and here. The latest smoking gun is the 1985 letter obtained by the Associated Press, signed by the then Cardinal Ratzinger to the diocese of Oakland about the case of Father Stephen Kiesle, mercilessly analysed by Andrew Sullivan here.
Guardian Story
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Atheist Richard Dawkins backs campaign to arrest Pope.

Leading atheist Richard Dawkins has backed a campaign to have the Pope arrested for "crimes against humanity" when he visits the UK later this year.
Professor Dawkins said he "whole-heartedly" backed the initiative led by atheist Christopher Hitchens.
UK human rights lawyers are preparing a case to charge Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.
Dr William Oddie, former editor of The Catholic Herald, labelled it "lunatic".
Campaigners hope to cast a shadow over the Pope's planned visit to the UK in September - the first visit by a Pope since 1982.

--snip--

uthor Christopher Hitchens said he does not believe the Vatican to be a legal state which raises questions as to whether the Pope, as head of state, could claim diplomatic immunity.
He said: "The UN at its inception refused membership to the Vatican but has allowed it a unique "observer status", permitting it to become signatory to treaties such as the Law of the Sea and (ironically) the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and to speak and vote at UN conferences where it promotes its controversial dogmas on abortion, contraception and homosexuality."
The group have cited as precedent the recent case of Israel's former foreign minister Tzipi Livni, who cancelled a visit to London after a British judge issued an arrest warrant over her alleged involvement with the conflict in Gaza.
BBC Story
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Not such a far fetched story as Tzipi Livni has cancelled visits to the UK recently and one Israeli leader's airplane had to take off hastily when warning came through that he would be arrested.

Personally, I think the current Pope has a long way to go if he's to change public perception of his office and feelings that a cover up was more important than dealing with the victims of paedophile priests. If he really wants to do the right thing he would step down from his position - but only after a full public apology to the victims of those priests.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Not such a far fetched story as Tzipi Livni has cancelled visits to the UK recently and one Israeli leader's airplane had to take off hastily when warning came through that he would be arrested.

Personally, I think the current Pope has a long way to go if he's to change public perception of his office and feelings that a cover up was more important than dealing with the victims of paedophile priests. If he really wants to do the right thing he would step down from his position - but only after a full public apology to the victims of those priests.
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The manner or systematic way in which priests were moved from parish to parish rather than to be immediately handed over to the authorities speaks to that. Covering up was the first and foremost in the mind of "The Defender of The Faith". How monstrous and evil to place these predators in midst of unsuspecting parishes so that the church could be protected.

I agree, The Pope should step down. He is a man who put his institution ahead of the safety of the children for whom he is spiritual leader and has a moral duty to protect. He's despicable.
 
Jetboogieman said:
No one is going to arrest the pope. Try at your peril.
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I think the point of this is to raise the very idea. If it gets discussed enough then the Pope might think twice about his UK visit and stay away. I would suspect that big protests will greet him if he does visit. In fairly Godless, otherwise fairly Protestant, pretty anti-Paedo Britain, Ratzinger isn't exactly Mr Popular, except with the 10% of the population that's RC.
 
Jetboogieman said:
No one is going to arrest the pope. Try at your peril.
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If someone makes a legitimate complaint to the police then they are obliged to investigate.

Besides, who's going to stop the arrest? God? :lol:
 
The Pope arrested? If only.

Jetboogieman said:
No one is going to arrest the pope. Try at your peril.
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What is he going to do? Call a crusade?

Infinite Chaos said:
If someone makes a legitimate complaint to the police then they are obliged to investigate.

Besides, who's going to stop the arrest? God? :lol:
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What about diplomatic immunity?
 
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Once again I notice yet another attack on the Pope a for this scandal.

It's disgusting what happened to those kids and if anybody needs criticism for their handling of it then give it to them. It's taken many wasted decades for this finally to come to light and become an issue.

If the Pope himself is found to have anything to do with it then he'll be marked for life.




Let's have some balance....

But I notice no similar crusade against institutionalised sex abuse in the Islamic world and their little enclaves in the West. Just a few tidbits:



Catholic Sex Abuses; Imagine If The Abuses Were By Imams, Muslims? - Nigerian Village Square

Teachers 'beat and abuse' Muslim children in British Koran classes -Times Online

http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/co...am-wanted-in-connection-with-child-abuse.html

Imam In Bosnia Sex Abuse Case Found Guilty :: BalkanInsight.com

Christian Child Abuse: Imam remanded on child rape charges

[osint] Wife of imam tells of persistent abuse

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_BPQF8zrU4"]YouTube- Shia Imam ka Mazhab fatwa Muta fornication Zina child abuse foreplay zindabad 2[/nomedia]




The 'sexual liberation' of 100 men and boys: 100 clerics caught for sexual child abuse [Archive] - MPACUK :: Muslim Discussion Forum


Paedophilia entrenched in Islam: Western Defence: Islam : A religion of paedophilia

Islam Watch - "Pedophilia in Islam: Allowed by Allah; Practised & Patronized by Prophet Muhammad" by Ayesha Ahmed


Muhammad himself was a paedo: Why Did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Married Young Aisha Siddiqa (r.a.)?



I was going to have a tirade about how such constant attacks on the Pope, ostensibly for Paedophilia, was just a cover for general attacks on institution of the Catholic Church by atheists and malcontents. Many have done and it looks it to me.

But let's have a look at the other side of the coin and allow ALL scandalous sex abuses in religious institutions to be spotlighted and shamed instead.


After all, isn't the safety of kids more important than the 'sensibilities' of ANY religion?!
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
Let's have some balance....

But I notice no similar crusade against institutionalised sex abuse in the Islamic world and their little enclaves in the West. Just a few tidbits:

Teachers 'beat and abuse' Muslim children in British Koran classes -Times Online

http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/co...am-wanted-in-connection-with-child-abuse.html

Imam In Bosnia Sex Abuse Case Found Guilty :: BalkanInsight.com

Christian Child Abuse: Imam remanded on child rape charges

[osint] Wife of imam tells of persistent abuse

YouTube- Shia Imam ka Mazhab fatwa Muta fornication Zina child abuse foreplay zindabad 2




The 'sexual liberation' of 100 men and boys: 100 clerics caught for sexual child abuse [Archive] - MPACUK :: Muslim Discussion Forum


Paedophilia entrenched in Islam: Western Defence: Islam : A religion of paedophilia

Islam Watch - "Pedophilia in Islam: Allowed by Allah; Practised & Patronized by Prophet Muhammad" by Ayesha Ahmed

Muhammad himself was a paedo: Why Did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Married Young Aisha Siddiqa (r.a.)?

I was going to have a tirade about how such constant attacks on the Pope, ostensibly for Paedophilia, was just a cover for general attacks on institution of the Catholic Church by atheists and malcontents. Many have done and it looks it to me.

But let's have a look at the other side of the coin and allow ALL scandalous sex abuses in religious institutions to be spotlighted and shamed instead.
Click to expand...


Well, from your posted "tidbits" it appears that Moslems accused of abuses are being hounded and prosecuted, and quite right too. What is your point? The issue with the Catholic Church is that their abusers are being sheltered and protected from prosecution by the organisation, perhaps at the highest level. They are preventing the consequences that the people in your linked stories suffered.

Are you suggesting that these paedophiles in holy orders are being treated WORSE than the Moslems in your stories? You know, the ones you are telling us are being prosecuted and jailed. Have you got evidence that the Moslem religious authorities are seeking to sweep these cases under the carpet in the way the Catholic Church has done? If so, show us the evidence.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
Once again I notice yet another attack on the Pope a for this scandal.

It's disgusting what happened to those kids and if anybody needs criticism for their handling of it then give it to them. It's taken many wasted decades for this finally to come to light and become an issue.

If the Pope himself is found to have anything to do with it then he'll be marked for life.




Let's have some balance....

But I notice no similar crusade against institutionalised sex abuse in the Islamic world and their little enclaves in the West. Just a few tidbits:



Catholic Sex Abuses; Imagine If The Abuses Were By Imams, Muslims? - Nigerian Village Square

Teachers 'beat and abuse' Muslim children in British Koran classes -Times Online

http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/co...am-wanted-in-connection-with-child-abuse.html

Imam In Bosnia Sex Abuse Case Found Guilty :: BalkanInsight.com

Christian Child Abuse: Imam remanded on child rape charges

[osint] Wife of imam tells of persistent abuse

YouTube- Shia Imam ka Mazhab fatwa Muta fornication Zina child abuse foreplay zindabad 2




The 'sexual liberation' of 100 men and boys: 100 clerics caught for sexual child abuse [Archive] - MPACUK :: Muslim Discussion Forum


Paedophilia entrenched in Islam: Western Defence: Islam : A religion of paedophilia

Islam Watch - "Pedophilia in Islam: Allowed by Allah; Practised & Patronized by Prophet Muhammad" by Ayesha Ahmed


Muhammad himself was a paedo: Why Did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Married Young Aisha Siddiqa (r.a.)?



I was going to have a tirade about how such constant attacks on the Pope, ostensibly for Paedophilia, was just a cover for general attacks on institution of the Catholic Church by atheists and malcontents. Many have done and it looks it to me.

But let's have a look at the other side of the coin and allow ALL scandalous sex abuses in religious institutions to be spotlighted and shamed instead.


After all, isn't the safety of kids more important than the 'sensibilities' of ANY religion?!
Click to expand...

I think I'm harder on Christians than Muslims because Christians are more a part of my society than Muslims. So I feel like we have more power to influence Christians as most of them live in a secular society. You can't reason with a Muslim theocracy. They don't believe in reason. They should answer for their crimes, but the only practical solution is to ignore them or destroy them. I'd rather ignore them.
 
Fair point, well made.


But I do perceive some kind of difference in how abuse by imams is at least not spoken of or kept fairly secret. But in Islam it's an open secret. Indeed, it's standard but often unbroadcast practice for things like 'thighing' and such to occur.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Alt/alt.religion.islam/2009-04/msg00001.pdf


Of course it's disgusting and I have no doubt that millions of Muslims across the world are forced to fume in frustrated silence, same as all the victims of peadophile priests would have had to. But in the developed world, there is a mighty public fuss about hushed up sex crimes in Catholocism, and bloody good job too. You wouldn't let your politicians, themselves once-respected and little questioned, get away with it.



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do - Give it to him then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation - No less barbarians.

http://mysun.co.uk/go/post/redirect?post_id=380773417 - Sadly such paedophilia is epidemic, hence the scandal of keeping it hushed. Few figures are available but we can surmise.


http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/talk-about-anything/69487-epidemic.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4959002.ece

http://www.uepengland.com/bbs/index.php/topic/16319-islam-causes-eu-to-legalise-paedophilia/ - I bet those pervy priests wish they could change their creed!


Just sayin' as all. And now I've made my point I doubt I'll say any more.
 
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Click the Youtube link and you'll get genuine video footage galore.

It still tells the truth though, mis-spelling of 'masturbation' barring.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
Click the Youtube link and you'll get genuine video footage galore.
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Not unless you give me a single reason to give me a single reason to trust (or even identify) the source. Who is saying this and why should we believe them? Anyone can cut together horrid footage and tell us it shows one thing when it probably shows another. You don't need to have spent 20 years in the TV industry to know how video footage can be manipulated.
 
You don't have to believe it. But these links are far more than a 'Cassetteboy'-style cut and paste job. These are whole chunks of programmes and speeches in which aspects of institutionaised peadophilia and other child abuse are announced and presented. There have even been some by liberal reporters when visiting Muslim lands:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjSmX5aLYLA"]YouTube- Muslim girl attempted suicide at 11 because of pedophilia.[/nomedia]


Mind, it's an interesting way of trying to rebut just some of a huge mountain of evidence - simply deny it as a an huge editing trick. It's an old dodge. If you think you smell a rat then by all means do please try and call me out.



A REAL cut-n-paste hatchet job: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QapZI2cLQQ"]YouTube- Gordon Brown[/nomedia]
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
Mind, it's an interesting way of trying to rebut just some of a huge mountain of evidence - simply deny it as a an huge editing trick. It's an old dodge. If you think you smell a rat then by all means do please try and call me out.
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I did call you out. I'm not rebutting it, I'm just asking for its provenance. If I don't know who posted it and by what standards of journalistic professionalism it was made, I can't judge it. I believe what I watch on the BBC because I know and trust its standards. I disbelieve what I see of Al Qaeda videotape because I don't know or trust its standards. Seeing is not believing, no matter how convincing the distress of the people on the video.
 
You did nothing! Sharmeen Obaid is a respected journalist who has worked for both Ch4 and Al Jazeera. She has made many programmes looking into all kinds of tricky issues:

Sharmeen Obaid Films


I'd say that's provenance enough. And besides, some people are never satisfied. I've had polite debates amongst Muslim friends who have asked me what I didn't like about Islam. And when I'd quote some things they'd say 'this isn't Islam' and 'that isn't Islam'. Tragic, because those things would be in their very holy books. And they were genuinely shocked because their teachers never told them, wanting them to remain benign and peaceful as decent people do.


Example: the infamous 'kill the Jews' speech (well one of them).

[ame=http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=muslim+jew+hiding+behind+me&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]muslim jew hiding behind me - Google Search[/ame]
 
LiveUninhibited said:
-- What about diplomatic immunity?
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If this gets to the stage of policemen waiting outside the Pope's plane or local residence if he comes here - his diplomatic status will have been resolved. His status currently revolves around how you view the status of the Vatican as a nation state.

Out of interest, the Vatican is trying say that the Pope has diplomatic immunity.

Reuters
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
-- Let's have some balance....--
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If you are making a genuine request, you'll also post links showing that marrying or having sex with under age / juvenile / children went on in Christian / Catholic society at the same time that Mohammend married a child.

You'll also post links to show that it is still legal to marry and thus have sex with children in some US states and that it is still legal to marry (and consumate) your marriage with a 14 year old in Scotland today.

Waiting for some "balance...."
 
Infinite Chaos said:
If you are making a genuine request, you'll ... also post links to show that it is still legal to marry ... (and consumate) your marriage with a 14 year old in Scotland today.
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...And the consensus from the wider rest of us would be 'Ugh, those nonces!'

We've advanced. They apparently haven't. Muhammad is still 'the perfect man' to them. We know now there is no excuse for paedophilia, whilst in areas of the Muslim world it's not really taken notice of.
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
...And the consensus from the wider rest of us would be 'Ugh, those nonces!'

We've advanced. They apparently haven't. Muhammad is still 'the perfect man' to them. We know now there is no excuse for paedophilia, whilst in areas of the Muslim world it's not really taken notice of.
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are you not off topic

Go to the middle east section and start your thread.
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
Not such a far fetched story as Tzipi Livni has cancelled visits to the UK recently and one Israeli leader's airplane had to take off hastily when warning came through that he would be arrested.

Personally, I think the current Pope has a long way to go if he's to change public perception of his office and feelings that a cover up was more important than dealing with the victims of paedophile priests. If he really wants to do the right thing he would step down from his position - but only after a full public apology to the victims of those priests.
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Normally I am big fan of both Hitchens and Dawkins, but would be the charge against the pope? Aiding and abetting? Conspiracy?

I think the better cause of action is to encourage Catholics not to attend Church or donate money to Catholic institutions, while the Pope continues with his current stance. A boycott if you may.
 
Oh and RoP, the issue hear is not whether Islam is worse than Roman Catholicism, but rather whether the notion to prosecute the Pope is viable or not.

For the record, Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris have all made comments in regards to Islam and abuse of children, several times, please refer to the documenatary "The Four Horsemen". So its not like these two men are ignoring the issue. Anyway back to the Pope.
 
alexa said:
are you not off topic

Go to the middle east section and start your thread.
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Yes, after a million cases where the subject matter is Islam and trolls try to undermine the proceedings by introducing charges against Christians or Jews, lets get all up in arms the one time we see the reverse. :roll:

Hypocrisy at its finest.
 
Australianlibertarian said:
Normally I am big fan of both Hitchens and Dawkins, but would be the charge against the pope? Aiding and abetting? Conspiracy?

I think the better cause of action is to encourage Catholics not to attend Church or donate money to Catholic institutions, while the Pope continues with his current stance. A boycott if you may.
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I would say he is certainy guilty of conspiracy considering his stonewalling tactics and the way he knowingly allowed these preditors to move around to new locations which gave them even more access.
 
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