Thread: EDL choose Bolton

for their latest little encounter with UAF. Why am I not surprised.

The EDL says it opposes "militant Islam" and Sharia law.

BBC News - Police battle to control EDL and UAF protest in Bolton



But who are the two children fighting? Muslims Just the EDL and the UAF.

Are the UAF necessary? Is it good that they are there because they send out a message to ordinary Muslims that people would not stand by if anyone tried any fascist activity, or do they encourage the EDL?

But this does pose an interesting question - the far Left are quick off the blocks to protest the BNP or EDL, but where are they when the likes of Anjem Chouderay come out to play?

Aren't those supremacists undeniably fascist? Or perhaps they are the 'wrong' fascists, vehemently anti-West, anti-US and anti-Democracy as they are and so thus worthy of patronage.

Hmm, thought as much: The modern left and Islamic fascism

And that's the modern Left's intellectual leadership, wanting in self-hate as it is since their beloved 'misunderstood' USSR collapsed!

Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public

But this does pose an interesting question - the far Left are quick off the blocks to protest the BNP or EDL, but where are they when the likes of Anjem Chouderay come out to play?

Pathetic. Your belief that to be against the EDL is 'far left' shows just how extreme right you must be.

You do though make a fair point in linking the BNP and the EDL - The BNP and EDL

and you fail completely in your belief that people who you believe are 'far left' have not criticised Anjem Chouderay, even in this very section.. but hey live your fantasies, provided they do not harm anyone.

Ooo, don't pelt me with any more of your creamy patronising wank! Can't stand the smell any longer!

As usual I'm misrepresented by some of the more aloof patrons of this panel. I didn't say that to be anti-EDL equals being far-Left, nor that Lefties haven't criticised Choudray.

But I give you full marks for your deluded hyperbole though. That's all that's left if you're not able to marshal the facts. And I also praise your high-handed way in completely ducking the question, well done.

____________________

So will the 'anti-fash' come out onto the streets in force to protest people like him?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C73ePf_2KVw"]YouTube- Anjem Choudary talks of 7.7.[/ame]

Or is it only the 'bad' fascists they make the effort to fight?

UAF accuses the EDL of being a far right party but it describes itself as a peaceful, non-political group.

So that's all it takes to hold a riot in the UK today? Just the belief that someone might be "right wing" and not "left wing".

Issues are no longer seriously discussed, symbols are sufficient.

Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public

Ooo, don't pelt me with any more of your creamy patronising wank! Can't stand the smell any longer!

As usual I'm misrepresented by some of the more aloof patrons of this panel. I didn't say that to be anti-EDL equals being far-Left, nor that Lefties haven't criticised Choudray.

But I give you full marks for your deluded hyperbole though. That's all that's left if you're not able to marshal the facts. And I also praise your high-handed way in completely ducking the question, well done.

____________________

So will the 'anti-fash' come out onto the streets in force to protest people like him?

YouTube- Anjem Choudary talks of 7.7.

Or is it only the 'bad' fascists they make the effort to fight?

So is this Islamofascist wacko, Anjem Choudary, right wing or left wing?

He must be left wing if he's not being attacked by the UAF.

Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public

But this does pose an interesting question - the far Left are quick off the blocks to protest the BNP or EDL, but where are they when the likes of Anjem Chouderay come out to play?

Aren't those supremacists undeniably fascist? Or perhaps they are the 'wrong' fascists, vehemently anti-West, anti-US and anti-Democracy as they are and so thus worthy of patronage.

Hmm, thought as much: The modern left and Islamic fascism

And that's the modern Left's intellectual leadership, wanting in self-hate as it is since their beloved 'misunderstood' USSR collapsed!

There was no ducking question.

1, Anyone who compares people who are anti EDL as being far left as you did show themselves up to be the supporter of tactics used before by the National Front and now by EDL.

2. You linked together the BNP and EDL and as I have been suspecting there are indeed links - to the point that UAF are now suggesting the possibility of this being the thug army that is typical of Nazi's. Nick Griffin himself did begin in this way with the National Front.

They are linked.

3. You made an erroneous claim.

However you have also taken this off topic.

I am interested in what people think about the UAF's involvement. I asked because before someone, possibly Infinte said some negative things about the UAF.

Personally I do like seeing the UAF stand up to them because it fels like someone is making it clear we will not stand for fascists and secondly because I believe that they may deflect from what might otherwise involve the EDL in more attacks on Muslims.

I am just interested in what others think on this.

Bolton was not a surprising choice for the March as has a strong history of racial tension so the EDL would have been hoping for some Muslims to come out to engage.

I think I like the UAF being involved but I am not sure if it is the best thing. That is what this thread is about.

Do you believe that the UAF is a helpful response to the EDL or should everyone just stay home and let the police deal with these thugs.

It's a difficult one for me to decide.

Originally Posted by alexa

-- Are the UAF necessary? Is it good that they are there because they send out a message to ordinary Muslims that people would not stand by if anyone tried any fascist activity, or do they encourage the EDL?

Good question, I remember when my parents returned to the UK in the 70's seeing a BBC news article about ordinary citizens grouping together in some ghetto areas to defend immigrant homes from people like the National Front who were attacking their homes at night. Many of the volunteers were martial artists - the police were around but called in only when violence had started.

I don't see the UAF movement as a direct descendent of those volunteers in the 70's but some of the sentiment among some members may be the same. There are other groups too - ANTIFA for one and to a large extent you have to wonder whether there are elements who simply want some aggro.

Just as deliberate however is the EDL choosing areas with large immigrant populations for their protests, equally is the high incidence of attacks on ethnic minorities in places where people like the EDL and the BNP have marched. I suppose at a human level, some people don't want to sit by until some horrendous attack has happened on an immigrant but would rather protest or stop the attacks happening.

Why don't the EDL march in Wooton Basset for instance? Why don't they march in areas with few if any migrants?

Originally Posted by Republic_Of_Public

-- Hmm, thought as much: The modern left and Islamic fascism--

Had a look at your mark humphreys link... was interested to read about celebrities responses and who he claimed as part of this evil one-eyed monster and surprised to read Desmond Tutu there.

Tutu's credentials for being part of the "modern left" (won't bother to put all your rubbish in but you know the stuff you spout about the "evil reds")?

Originally Posted by Mark Humphreys link

On the day after Christmas, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Anglican Primate of South Africa and holder of the Nobel Peace Prize, standing before the memorial at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to the millions of Jews murdered by Hitler, prayed for the murderers and sermonized the descendants of their victims. "We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer" (New York Times, 27 December 1989). This, he said, was his "message" to the Israeli children and grandchildren of the dead.

Moral obtuseness, mean spite, and monstrous arrogance do not make for sound ethics and theology. Neither Tutu nor the Israelis he lectured can "forgive" the Nazi murderers. Representatives of an injured group are not licensed (even by the most unctuous of preachers) to forgive on behalf of the whole group. In fact, forgiveness issues from God alone. The forgiveness Tutu offers the Nazis is truly pitiless because it forgets the victims, blurs over suffering, and drowns the past.

So a Christian, acting in the way his messiah (Jesus Christ) asked followers to act i.e. forgive those who betray / wound / hurt us - is somehow left wing...

The link given for whatever Desmond Tutu is supposed to have said that enraged our modern "Redwatch" righties could be this - Desmond Tutu speech in London

In essence, he talks about how the goodwill shown to the US after 9/11 has largely around the world become deep mistrust and hostility. Hmm, anything to do with the lies that took us into Iraq and left Afghanistan (where Osama Bin Laden was supposed to be) alone to fester and the world ignored the pile up bodies of Western troops.

Or could the good archbishop have angered our Redwatch buddies by saying this? "forgive but don't retaliate"

Was Jesus a leftie? Is Tutu only doing what the leader of the faith he is part of has asked of him? Hmmm.. doesn't take much to be a "leftie" it seems. Anyone to the left of Hitler must be a communist I think.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

Good question, I remember when my parents returned to the UK in the 70's seeing a BBC news article about ordinary citizens grouping together in some ghetto areas to defend immigrant homes from people like the National Front who were attacking their homes at night. Many of the volunteers were martial artists - the police were around but called in only when violence had started.
I don't see the UAF movement as a direct descendent of those volunteers in the 70's but some of the sentiment among some members may be the same.

this may indeed be why they have decided on this course of action. It does seem to me that if they did not, then it would be much more likely that sooner or later some Muslims would get fed up and the EDL might have the chance to create the reality it is trying to.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

There are other groups too - ANTIFA for one and to a large extent you have to wonder whether there are elements who simply want some aggro.

Did you have some negative things to say about this group before?I guess people need to be prepared for aggro when doing anything like this but I would agree nothing would be gained if the UAF were as interested in an afternoon's fight as I hear the EDL are.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

Just as deliberate however is the EDL choosing areas with large immigrant populations for their protests, equally is the high incidence of attacks on ethnic minorities in places where people like the EDL and the BNP have marched.

You say 'just as deliberate', do you have any evidence that the UAF is wanting deliberate violent confrontation with the EDL.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

I suppose at a human level, some people don't want to sit by until some horrendous attack has happened on an immigrant but would rather protest or stop the attacks happening.

I think not just attacks but the psychological goading. I know earlier marches I looked at were all off to Mosques and so on.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

Was Jesus a leftie? Is Tutu only doing what the leader of the faith he is part of has asked of him? Hmmm.. doesn't take much to be a "leftie" it seems. Anyone to the left of Hitler must be a communist I think.

so true, so true

Originally Posted by alexa

this may indeed be why they have decided on this course of action. It does seem to me that if they did not, then it would be much more likely that sooner or later some Muslims would get fed up and the EDL might have the chance to create the reality it is trying to.

They have been fed up before and defended themselves. I remember some incidents in Slough some years back. About 8 years ago, I knew a young Pakistani up here who would (if threatened) be able to call on friends in Lancashire to come and get involved in defence of the community.

However there as in Birmingham, once the far right threat went away some of the gangs turned to other activities - usually crime.

Originally Posted by alexa

-- Did you have some negative things to say about this group before?

Sorry, you may have read my "debates" with wazzockman - he was very much against groups like Antifa.

Originally Posted by alexa

I guess people need to be prepared for aggro when doing anything like this but I would agree nothing would be gained if the UAF were as interested in an afternoon's fight as I hear the EDL are.

True - the alternative however is to allow the EDL to cause tensions and then the migrant community creates its own gangs where there are large communities with young men to draw upon.

Originally Posted by alexa

-- You say 'just as deliberate', do you have any evidence that the UAF is wanting deliberate violent confrontation with the EDL.

None particularly - however ANTIFA certainly proudly talks of taking the fight to people like the BNP and probably soon, the EDL.