Who cares about Venables?

I see Jon Venables, the killer of the Bulger child, is back in police custody for a serious crime. Along with a mate, he lured and sadistically killed a toddler in Merseyside, receiving a 'stiff' sentence in a comfortable jail, before being released six years later with a new identity and full-blown state security forces to protect him from harm.

Some journalists are wondering which new lag brought into custody is actually Venables - and more than a few of us also wonder how a violent murderer could have received such an original non-punishment in relation to the crime for this to happen now.

Left wing bloggers often lambaste newspapers for sensationalising, often not without legitimate grounds, but this time I wonder if they protest too much. The unwittingly honestly-named Enemies Of Reason:

Cage this beast! Enemies of Reason



First of all, I notice how loopy modern Leftists consider even derisory punishments for crimes as legitimate and worthy. "Look, Venables committed his heinous murder", I've often heard, "got six years for it and now he's a free, respectable and honest man with his slate and character wiped clean". Six years is no sentence for torture and dragged-out murder, especially as his hopes were kept up for insanely early release whilst he was inside.

It's not unreasonable to expect dangerous and violent criminals to at least be locked up for a good long time. It happened with Dennis Nilsen and the Yorkshire Ripper, so it's not impossible. It's just funny how modern Leftist opinion derides even that as some primitive and vulgar lust for revenge, never mind hanging. The 'valuable' European Court of Justice helped Venables gain his early release, an institution marinated in such 'principles'.

I know the blogger seems to be addressing his view of anybody's right to personal safety against vigilantism under any circumstances (though in this case Venables should still be inside for the Bulger murder for this not to be relevant), but he also makes a baffling attack on people who regard the likes of Venables as 'animals'. Of course they are. They do need to be caged, with 'left to rot' being more a euphamism. But given the politicians promising us that any gallows-worthy criminals would be locked up for a true life sentence after the rope was banned, it's no wonder people are angry that the length of porridge for even capital murder gets shorter and shorter.

But other than the claim that animals aren't higher than these vicious killers (animals kill because they need to and not because they're reprehensibly evil), this really gets on my nerves:


"It's easy to dehumanise criminals by calling them animals and beasts, but of course they aren't. They may act appallingly and do horrific things which shock us, but they aren't animals, or beasts. But if harm does come to the Bulger killers as a result of any of this publicity and clamour for information, who then are the beasts? Who then are the animals? And who then is guilty?"


Turning the argument round and shifting all the negativity against the would-be vigilante (or journalist) is typical of the looking-glass Left. "He's no animal, just the other bloke who killed him for it". That's not too far removed from the old "society's to blame" crap when talking about your average street thug. The criminals are the victims, apparently, with the real victims (and their families) just over-emotional unfortunates 'in the wrong place at the wrong time', not to be taken notice of too much. The scum are to blame, or perhaps the 'liberal' Left are still far too daft to notice.

And as for 'dehumanising' the criminals? You don't need the newspapers or public to do that, the feral swine responsible do that the moment they commit their barbarous acts! And with politically-correct revolving-door merchants in Labour still controlling the judicial system, with their hand-picked lunatic judges, it's no wonder such scenarios are set to run and run. If anyone should share the term 'dangerous animals' it should also be the politicians (both Tory and Labour) who broke their promises not to unleash evil killers back into society, all in the name of Justice.

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7051089.ece

Extra link: Bulger killer cover blown | The Sun |News

It is indeed in the Public interest! We are bleeding well interested!

Extra link: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...s-which-all-lefties-share-responsibility.html

What do you think the perpetrators of that crime will end up getting, if even caught? Probation? Community Service, as used in the communist bloc? An ABC? ASBO? A kiss on the nob for good behaviour? Might as well.

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- It's not unreasonable to expect dangerous and violent criminals to at least be locked up for a good long time. It happened with Dennis Nilsen and the Yorkshire Ripper, so it's not impossible. It's just funny how modern Leftist opinion derides even that as some primitive and vulgar lust for revenge, never mind hanging. The 'valuable' European Court of Justice helped Venables gain his early release, an institution marinated in such 'principles'

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Nilsen and the Yorkshire Ripper where adults when they committed their crimes.

Also - both Left and Right have been in power for decades and both sides have had decades to change the laws regarding child prisoners or to make sure they were locked up forever for their crimes.
Still, yet another potentially interesting thread is now not worth bothering to develop further because you simply want to use it for "left" and "right" politics.

Why are they not disclosing why he's back in prison? I can't form an opinion until I know why they arrested him again.

Arcana XV said:

Why are they not disclosing why he's back in prison? I can't form an opinion until I know why they arrested him again.

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I think the basic idea is that if he went to trial and his previous history was in the jury's mind that the trial could be alleged to be unsound - it would be pretty impossible to get a jury that hadn't seen the horrible images from Sefton shopping centre.

It's tricky ground whichever way this goes.

Infinite Chaos said:

I think the basic idea is that if he went to trial and his previous history was in the jury's mind that the trial could be alleged to be unsound - it would be pretty impossible to get a jury that hadn't seen the horrible images from Sefton shopping centre.

It's tricky ground whichever way this goes.

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Well, alright, but why does he get that kind of protection? Aren't jury's allowed to know the criminal's previous history?

Infinite Chaos said:

Still, yet another potentially interesting thread is now not worth bothering to develop further because you simply want to use it for "left" and "right" politics.

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I did mention the Tories also broke promises to keep the worst of our felons locked up, or perhaps you yourself are being ridiculously simplistic.

Though it is fair to say that it was Labour behind the drive to give up the rope, Lefties who are prone to hyperbole about 'state-sanctioned murder' on the subject of its potential return and more Lefties than anyone else who try to ring-fence evil youngsters off from any real consequences of their crimes.

If Venables was made to pay anything even approaching the proper price for his horrific deeds then he wouldn't be causing a scandal right now.

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- it is fair to say that it was Labour behind the drive to give up the rope, Lefties who are prone to hyperbole about 'state-sanctioned murder' on the subject of its potential return

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It doesn't take "left" or "right" to say the death penalty is wrong - especially when the potential for miscarriage of justice is so high and proof that it works is so low.

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- If Venables was made to pay anything even approaching the proper price for his horrific deeds then he wouldn't be causing a scandal right now.

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I certainly don't back his early release. The one thing that should be investigated and is being covered up by the furore over what he might have done is the parole decision that allowed him out when he clearly wasn't ready.

I know compartmentalising into Left and Right isn't the be-all and end-all, though in my experience most people are happy to plot themselves somewhere on the chart. (Though these same people can then often say 'Oo, it's not such a simple question of Left and Right' when they have to defend themselves over something.)




Capital punishment is bang right. Many socialists have said this too, though I do still stand by my assertion that the modern Left, the dominating trendy Left, screams against it. The People want it, it fits the crimes and it's Justice. Most of us accept that such measures allow a nation to excrete some of its most destructive specimens.

Miscarriages of justice have occurred in the past over this, though extremely rarely. But with strides in DNA-based detective work, as well as the commonsense idea that absolute and undeniable proof should be the only criteria for its use, there is no reason at all why the likes of Myra Hindley, Harold Shipman or even Venables shouldn't have lost their lives for taking away somebody else's so brutally and sadistically.

And capital punishment DOES have a deterrent effect in the long term - as well as an immediate effect on the level of serious offenders, reducing it by one. The murder rate was indeed much lower in past days when potential killers feared what was to happen to them... even when you take a lower population into account.Even corporal punishment for our street scum worked - when the Isle of Man dumped the birch a few years ago, the tranquil place almost immediately witnessed as much antisocial behaviour as any middle-sized town in England.

And if our masters baulk at the idea of punishing criminals properly, despite well over half of us wanting the Rope returned, they had better dump the latest crap they come out with. 'Wet' people drivel on that 'prison doesn't work'*, but our aloof politicians are slow to restore some true proportionality to punishments and have society's vermin fear again. If they don't want innocents hanged, as our neglectful masters always screech will happen if the Ultimate Deterrent is returned, then they had best lock away the other criminals for a decent time again to avoid the public pressure!





* And of course prison won't work if you soften the system and ridiculously reduce the sentences! Only other pigs seem to indulge such a delusion that pampering cuts crime.


_______________________________________

We want it back Mr. Home Sec.!

CHANNEL 4 POLL Reveals 70 Per Cent support for the Death Penalty - News - beecareful.info


Sound common sense in the comments:

Tara wants to know how executing a killer makes me any better than him. Oh let me see! Oh, I got it!! The murderer gets a trial, an appeals process, and a defense lawyer. Funny, I don't remember the murder victim getting any of these! The murderer killed an innocent person. I'm executing a murdering scumbag and have no regrets about it.




Stop lying about a lack of deterrent effect!

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=15216

States without capital punishment is the USA see fewer murders. "Not good enough" say the Antis. But just one less is better.



And with no capital punishment to stop them, certain other life-wreckers take the p***:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3621210/The-case-for-capital-punishment.html

LEO McKINSTRY: Sorry not to join the liberal wailing: heroin traffickers deserve to die | Mail Online

ERROR:

"States without capital punishment is the USA see fewer murders." Pure pure bull' and a slip of the typewriter.

Should have said "States with capital punishment in the USA see fewer murders."


Phew, thought I was turning into a Liberal drip just then! (The thought of being a whining, windbag Liberal is so depressing that no wonder so many of them oppose the idea of euthanasia! Far too tempting to do each other in!!)

Republic_Of_Public said:

ERROR:

Click to expand...

You finally got one bit right!

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- Should have said "States with capital punishment in the USA see fewer murders."

Click to expand...

I'd be curious to see your proof... On the counter I want you to read these websites:

US National Center for State Courts - click the bottom link "What are the pros and cons to the death penalty?"

This website also links to:

Death Penalty Info: looking at whether murder of police officers was less in non penalty states than those exercising the Death Penalty

My other links for you:

BBC Ethics - No proof either way for or against

Death Penalty Info: Comparison of all murder by states with and without state execution

The only argument I've heard so far (that I hadn't come across before) that the Death Penalty might deter is this "Deterrence is most effective when the punishment happens soon after the crime - to make an analogy, a child learns not to put their finger in the fire, because the consequence is instant pain.

The more the legal process distances the punishment from the crime - either in time, or certainty - the less effective a deterrent the punishment will probably be."

But the problem is we can't kill a murderer so soon after they have themselves killed as we have to go through a legal process to prove guilt. The very process itself distances crime and punishment - however to provide DNA proof and absolute evidence we must follow due process.

I did give you evidence. And the links also contain their own.

Overall across the US, in more recent years than the bulk of your evidence, capital punishment did indeed have a deterrent effect. And rather than speak the language of hand-wringing liberals going on about 'public vengeance', it's more important to address the flaws of people who need to be punished and can see the stark danger of heavy punishment. Or perhaps you agree with our political class who think that 70% of the public's opinion 'isn't relevant' on this issue.

Ideas of stupid criminals, or those buoyed up with attorney promises that they can escape the relevant punishment, is no reason to say the death penalty is pointless. You're just quoting an opinion on the deterrent effect on individual murderers after they've done the deed. This is way different to the effect on scumbags en-masse.

And anyway, like I said before, politicians can't be trusted to honour promises to keep proven murderers in jail until they die, which is one more motivation for the rest of us to desire the return of hanging.

Republic_Of_Public said:

I did give you evidence. And the links also contain their own

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You mean the Conservative NCPA link? Got anything impartial or do you believe nothing like that could possibly exist?

There are buckets of what you call impartial stuff out there. And as you provided some yourself, evidence which by its own admission cancels itself out, there's no point in me throwing some extra ones up. And on top of that, there is also a pile of apparently neutral data which is wildly contradictory. I use my horse-sense as you want to use yours to sort the wheat from the chaff on a subject which by nature ISN'T impartial.

(Plus, I have noticed that people who say 'Ooo, you must be impartial', tend to say that to people they disagree with. And as I looked at all that stuff years ago anyway, it would be dishonest to pretend to be discovering it all now.)


And, as an anti, you're one to go on about impartiality, which usually walks hand-in-hand with sanity when not perverted to suit liberal quackdoctors. As the European Parliament statement said: “We pay tribute to all victims of the death penalty.” Nice. What about a tribute to the real murder victims? Or are they just more collateral damage in liberal-land, just non-volatile dead cell matter fit only for statistical purposes?

I don't believe them!

But alright. Let's just pretend, for now, that the death penalty is crap. Let's just say all these poor murderers get a bum deal with it. What's the alternative? We can't lock them in prison because our liberal masters say that doesn't work, that denies them freedom and a second chance to rehabilitate!

So my proposal is that, in exchange for the Public giving up their rightful claim to punish dangerous murderers properly and deter them, people like the Prime Minister or President of the EU are made to look after them instead!

We say to the politicians, judges, Leftist opinion-formers, social workers and drippy liberals in general: "Take these feral vermin and feed them, clothe them, house them in your nice leafy suburban areas and help them settle back into 'normal' life. Face down 'prejudiced' neighbours, pay for their room, board and pastimes and share in the personal responsibility for their future conduct." See how long their morals last then, when they have to do a damn site more than eat taxpayers' money and pontificate to ordinary people sick of rising crime!

LEFT WING SH*T HAS BEEN TRIED, LEFT WING SH*T HAS FAILED! But despite that, it's been forced on us more and more as the failures have increased. No coincidence I contend!
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Very instructive pages, brought to you by Republic of Public-fax:

Pro Capital Punishment Page

The death penalty works, just ask Trigger Burke - New Europe

Oooh you mean bitches, denying those poor dangerous dogs the right to see out their lives in peace!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Act-could-free-20-most-notorious-killers.html

If you think proper punishments for heinous crimes are too excessive, 'liberal' statutes go waaaaaay too far in the opposite direction:
http://www.navigor.org.uk/navigor/human-rights/human-rights.php

Republic_Of_Public said:

There are buckets of what you call impartial stuff out there. And as you provided some yourself, evidence which by its own admission cancels itself out, there's no point in me throwing some extra ones up. And on top of that, there is also a pile of apparently neutral data which is wildly contradictory. I use my horse-sense as you want to use yours to sort the wheat from the chaff on a subject which by nature ISN'T impartial.

Click to expand...

The wheat tends to be pure data collection sites - like those that collect data for the FBI or the US courts. I prefer not to link pro or anti websites.

Republic_Of_Public said:

But alright. Let's just pretend, for now, that the death penalty is crap. Let's just say all these poor murderers get a bum deal with it. What's the alternative? We can't lock them in prison because our liberal masters say that doesn't work, that denies them freedom and a second chance to rehabilitate!

Click to expand...

What you'll find is that those who disagree with the death penalty are not just "lefties" - however you do seem to paint everything and anyone that has a different viewpoint as "lefties" or liberals - which does stifle debate.

Anyhow, to address your point - what you'll find is that those who disagree with the death penalty are more concerned about miscarriage of justice. There's nothing "liberal" or "conservative" or "left wing" or "right-wing" about the concern that an innocent may be put to death. You misguidedly continue to argue the opposing argument as concern for the guilty over the victims - however you do the same thing in other threads where your "leftie" obsession clouds all your arguments.

Shame really, you'll never really engage or understand those you wish to "debate" with.

I haven't accused you of being a liberal have I? And as I've said before, most liberals in my experience don't want the death penalty back and most conservative-types, if they think about it, would want it back or have no opposition. That's your spectrum and that's how it is.

And as I've also said before, strides in detection methods and DNA technology can eradicate miscarriages of justice, especially if hanging would generally tend to be used with just the likes of Venables or the West family. (And to that can also be added the extra safety net of juries not returning guilty verdicts in capital cases until they are absolutely sure.)

So think on that before you patronise.

And anyway, this post wasn't about the death penalty, it was an article on Venables as part of a review of a Leftist blog and a criticism of trendy milk-sops. So if being sick about the nation getting flushed down the toilet's the criteria, that's how it runs.

Venables' home life before his murder of James Bulger is laid bare here:

The police were sure James Bulger's ten-year-old killers were simply wicked. But should their parents have been in the dock? | Mail Online


Picture in your mind's eye the sight of all the outrageously liberal social worker-types howling with anguish, their tears pouring into the breakfast lentils. Not for the first time, I fancy, will a bunch of do-gooders try to convince the rest of us that the sadistic upbringing of Venables is the real catalyst for Bulger's murder. The conclusion being that 'understanding' of the poor verminous slimeball's background can be deliberately confused as a mitigating circumstance. They say as much with every other case in which vicious perpetrators suffered a cruel upbringing.

(Though they make an exception with Hitler strangely, but moving on....)


From the European Court Of 'Justice' and down, Public opinion has been repeatedly bucked by 'socialist' morons and 'liberal' incompetents determined to enforce a 'softly softly' mentality, despite the increasing social chaos such lunacy brings.

Countless kids even today suffer tortuous upbringings and are scarred for life. But only those who were dangerously evil in the first place indulge in sprees of vitriolic hatred on the back of it. Venables was freed after a sentence shorter than a drunk driver could expect. But we're not just supposed to go with that, but also believe that such a warped, sick, dangerous piece of sub-human scum is actually meant to go unhated.

What planet do these socially-engineering, negligent pinheads live on?!

__________________________________________

"MIRACLE, OH MIRACLE! VENABLES IS ACTUALLY ALL BENIGN AND ALRIGHT NOW! STOP PERSECUTING THIS POOR YOUNG MAN, NOW HE'S MADE A REMARKABLE TRANSFORMATION INTO SOMEONE TOTALLY NORMAL":

Jon Venables is no longer the guilty boy who killed James Bulger - Telegraph

"He cried in the dock at his trial and everything! What more evidence do you NEED to wipe the slate clean?!"


Wanker.

EPILOGUE:

Well, that's all sorted out now. It appears that Venables is back in jail over child porn allegations, though 'Justice' minister Jack Straw wanted the whole affair hushed up in case Venables was put in danger!

Venables put in danger? He's a danger to kids, even by proxy! It's a mystery to me how even a government minister thinks he's worth so much state protection, especially when there are REAL victims needing the aid. They should never have let him out of jail in the first place. The Labour-endorsed European Court of Justice forbad ministers extending jail sentences for scum like Venables - now they face more consequences of the stupidity they did nothing to stop.

And so much for the liberal losers telling us that the recidivist evil-doer Venables should be given another second chance. It's more than the victims get.

Addendum:

The politically-correct nation-wreckers in charge of our destiny see fewer reasons to protect normal people. Indeed, it is we who are scum to be left to fend for ourselves in this Mad Max country of super-emancipated criminals and helpless decent folk:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | Columnists :: British justice has been turned on its head by Labour


More government schemes are set up to 'help' criminal slime than victims, who tend to rely on charity. Says it all about the Marxist vermin, who are now so bent out of shape that they see people in need as those who have put themselves beyond the fringes of civilisation due to their own actions. The Reds must fry.

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- Well, that's all sorted out now. It appears that Venables is back in jail over child porn allegations, though 'Justice' minister Jack Straw wanted the whole affair hushed up in case Venables was put in danger! --

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You continue to post speculation, until you have a credible statement or link showing what Venables has done and what he's been sentenced / imprisoned for you should wait.

Surprising really that the source of your story is speculation in what you would probably call a "lefty" source i.e. Sunday Mirror.

I think you would also confess if pressed that the Govt is not releasing any statements regarding Venables - not to protect him but to make sure any case against Venables is not compromised. People like you complain that Venables receives fair trial (I can imagine you asking "what about the victim") but how much more would you complain if the CPS threw the case out because the prosecution was compromised by all the publicity?

Double standards methinks.

I also read of Jack Straw letting on as much as he knew the papers would find out anyway from the News of the World. Straw said secrecy was paramount to protect the trial as well as Venables' new ID. But if Venables has anything to worry about, it'll be what retribution he may face in jail.

I don't have sympathy for him. More than just the public feel he hasn't paid for the last crime yet: http://www.nowpublic.com/world/jon-venables-cover-blown-prison-james-bulgers-killer-known

But I have followed a string of stories, hence this Google search link: [ame=http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=jack+straw+jon+venables&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]jack straw jon venables - Google Search[/ame]


The Mail takes the story to the latest point made public, that Venables will face a child porn trial and that Jack Straw virtually admitted on BBC Radio that the facts match the revelations: Jon Venables: James Bulger killer to face child porn trial | Mail Online

I never advocated transparency which could lead to a mistrial. All my last post but-one says is that Venables should never have been let out to commit these new crimes after the Bulger murder, as such early releases constitute a fault with the System. Particularly with a State-guaranteed new ID behind him.



(And there's your links. Interesting I often get prodded over the number of hyperlinks, regardless of how many I put up.)

Republic_Of_Public said:

-- (And there's your links. Interesting I often get prodded over the number of hyperlinks, regardless of how many I put up.)

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I'm not bothered about the number of links - just their accuracy or otherwise. I looked at your mail story and it still seems to be just speculation. Nothing definitive yet I'm afraid.

LET'S SEE WHAT ALL THE CRETIONOUS 'OPEN-DOOR' LEFTARDS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS.....


THE WEEKLY VICE: Jon Venables Strikes Again - Child Murderer Who Spent Just 8 Years In Prison, Arrested Again On Child Porn Charges



According to London's Central Criminal Court, Venables also distributed 7 indecent and pornographic images of children as well between February 1st and 23rd of this year.

Information about the case was not made public until just this week when a judge ordered that a gag order on the case be lifted.

Venables was taken back into custody in February as this recent charge violates his parole conditions. He is set to appear in court on July 23rd.

Lacy "knew this would happen" Black
The Weekly Vice





'Oooooooooooo', wail the detestable liberals, their limp wrists waving in the breeze. 'He's only another human being, we must give him second chances. He's only a young man!'

Look what his sort do with them!

But do the liberals and leftists ever learn? Nooooo..... Hence the wicked New Labour cover up of AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH!!!

You're an intelligent bloke Republic_Of_Public and I think I would favour the sentiment in most of your postings (I could be wrong of course), but I tend to loose interest whilst reading when words such as leftie / left wing and such like are used. In life there's usually nothing I dislike more than anything else and it's pidgeon holes. It's another reason that my first post on this forum was to comment on how I was unhappy with the list of political groupings I was to choose from, 'other' was installed in light of this and it was a welcomed option. I fear that too often, specific opinions can be lost into the pidgeon holes created by others which as a result the reader / viewer can't be bothered to look into.

With regards this case. I won't be judging anyone and I don't know the facts. Is it possible that Venebals is being framed and that indecent content has been transferred onto his perged computer? This is probably something I'd like to remain non-judgemental over, another egsample would be the alleged Soham murders with Ian Huntley. I'm not sure cases such as these are always as they might seem.