Captain America

I think they should be allowed to wear the burga but only if it is soaked in gasoline first.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

Ahlevah

The problem I see in France is decades ago it imported many cheap foreign "temporary" workers from countries like Algeria and Morocco, expecting them to return to their native countries once the work was done. Didn't happen. There was never any expectation that these people would be mainstreamed into "French" society and culture. By and large, they were poorly educated, so their employment prospects beyond menial types of jobs were limited. At least in America, although we import a lot of cheap foreign labor, we also have a greater opportunity, I think, for immigrants to mainstream into the broader society. I also think if someone wants to walk around dressed up like a giant blueberry they should have the right to do it, just as long as they don't walk into a bank.

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Gardener

Except for the fact that fitting through the door can prove difficult.

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Arcana XV

I agree that France never thought that these workers would stay indefinitely. However, when it became clear that they were not going anywhere, they absolutely were expected to integrate. And they did. A lot more willingly than the immigrants of today. The problems arose when they realized that despite their efforts to become part of French society, they were still considered second class citizens.

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"Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

Grant

"I must disagree again. There is no need to live in a particular culture to have an adequate understanding of it".

Again, I must disagree also. I'm spending a lot of time in Central America now and speak passable Spanish but it will take me still longer to know the culture. I often hear Europeans say they knew the American culture, and Africans and Asians will say the same, but in fact they haven't a clue. Whatever they learn is through the media, and that will determine their points of view rather than any hands on experience.

Do you think OBL, for example, had an "adequate" understanding of the American people before he decided to murder them? What was the shoe bomber's knowledge? Or any other of these international terrorists?

"By your logic, no one that studies other cultures and their philosophers has any inkling what they're learning about unless they actually move there".

That's almost right. They may have an inkling. All they know is the superficial written by those whose own knowledge might be questionable, or to serve a specific purpose. It's amazing how many people form their opinions of the United States, for example, through movies. Or how many British get their ideas from the BBC.

"The fact that you think that only Muslims riot, burn cars and live in no-go zones in France is a testament to the utter ineptitude and unprofessionalism of the news reporting in your country".

I'm not aware that others are doing it also, that's true. Can you offer examples of others doing all three?

"What you or I think constitutes religious garb matters very little to those who do consider it religious garb".

But the burka is not religious garb.

"Each religious sect has its own interpretation of whatever is written in their holy books".

That's true, but the burka is mentioned nowhere in the Koran.

"Try telling the Saudi Wahabists that niqab, which will also be included in this ban if it ever passes, is not religious garb".

This ban only applies in France.

"If they're willing to compromise and take off the face veil in government buildings, or when going through airport security and such, then that's fine by me. If they won't, they'll just have to avoid setting foot in those places. It's really very simple".

That's another way to go. They can simply be boycotted. But that might create more civil unrest, and create more problems, than just removing the silly things.

Grant

Or the problems arose when the numbers increased and they realized it wasn't necessary to integrate.

Arcana XV

This does not apply to France. The majority of Muslims in France are French born. Most of them second generation. They're the grandsons and grand-daughters of that first wave of immigrants and they are largely secular and integrated. They consider themselves French above all else.

The newly arrived immigrants who are reluctant to assimilate are going to find out soon enough that this sort of thing simply does not fly in France. If the ridiculous controversy over full veils proves anything, it's that France is unwilling to give even an inch when it comes to defining what being French is supposed to mean.

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"Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

Grant

I suppose the next 20-50 years will tell the story.

Arcana XV

Yes, I do think that both Qutb and Bin Laden have a much more adequate grasp on Western culture than the average Westerner does of Muslim culture. So do the many extremists who live among us and absolutely despise our way of life. They know us a lot better than we know them.


I was talking about a much deeper study than merely watching the evening news.

Of course, you're not aware of it. Your news constantly imply that Muslims are the sole perpetrators. Next time there are riots and car burnings and reports about suburban violence, I'll link you to the actual local news reports. You may have to brush up on your French, tho. It's a mistake to believe that there are no native French living in violent areas and an even bigger mistake to believe that they never take part in riots and car burnings. These are the actions of disenfranchised, unemployed youth. Yes, many of them are Muslim, but many others are not.

It's not up to you or me to decide how to interpret someone else's faith.

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"Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

Ahlevah

This was basically the point I was trying to make when I wrote that I thought America did a better job of integrating immigrants into the broader society. We're a nation of immigrants, many of whom came with little except the clothes they had on their backs and maybe a suitcase or two. We never had a true European-style aristocracy. Certainly, every group that's entered the country has experienced growing pains. Even Irish Catholics who immigrated here in the 19th Century following the Great Potato Famine endured prejudice from the largely Anglo-Protestant population the country had at the time. But they eventually found their place and made their mark, just like the Italians, Germans, Chinese, Africans, and everyone else who came after them have.

We also don't have the baggage of the religious wars the French had, and we have this thing called the Constitution that recognizes religious freedom and freedom of expression. So any law that banned a clothing item simply because someone else didn't like it probably wouldn't pass muster in the courts. It would have to be to promote some compelling governmental interest, such as public health or safety.

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After November, 2008, the legend of the invincibility of the Republican oppressors vanished. The pieces of bodies of infidels were flying to Fox News like dust particles.

Obama bin Laden