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The EU and Democracy

bub

R.I.P. Léo
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Why do some people think that the EU is not democratic?? That's an argument that is frequently used, but there is no real justification since the Parliament is more and more powerful.

The EU gets all the critics about democracy, but no poster here has ever said that our countries could have democratic problems too. For example, in 2005, the Labor party got an absolute majority at the UK Parliament while they got only 35% of the votes!! Why does no one speak about that? Do you think that it is normal?
 
The EU is overdemocratic.

All states are and have to be democratic states. The EU itself is a democratic creation of those democratic states. While on top of that again they decided by unanimous democratic vote to build institutions where the nations can unanimously vote together for new areas of cooperation, which again have to be approved by democratially elected national parliaments, in addition to the democratically elected EU parliament on top of that, and all democratically elected leaders of the EU member states!

Wow.. Whats more democratic than that?
 
I think the EU could be made more democratic. One huge improvement of democracy in the union would be to give the parliament the ability to introduce new bills for EU legislation on their own, instead of reserving that power to the commission. The people's representatives ought to have the ability to be proactive in the legislative process instead of just reacting to whatever comes from the un-elected commissioners.
 
I think the EU could be made more democratic. One huge improvement of democracy in the union would be to give the parliament the ability to introduce new bills for EU legislation on their own, instead of reserving that power to the commission. The people's representatives ought to have the ability to be proactive in the legislative process instead of just reacting to whatever comes from the un-elected commissioners.

The commission leader is elected by the nations in democratic unity. He then goes on to select commissioners who are approved by the EU parliament. Those commissioners again are nominated by national parliament.

Even so, it shouldnt matter, since the commission have no actual powers, except suggestion. And enforcing things everyone has agreed on.
 
I think the EU could be made more democratic. One huge improvement of democracy in the union would be to give the parliament the ability to introduce new bills for EU legislation on their own, instead of reserving that power to the commission. The people's representatives ought to have the ability to be proactive in the legislative process instead of just reacting to whatever comes from the un-elected commissioners.

that's coming...in every treaty the Parliament gets more power!
 
Why do some people think that the EU is not democratic?? That's an argument that is frequently used, but there is no real justification since the Parliament is more and more powerful.

The EU gets all the critics about democracy, but no poster here has ever said that our countries could have democratic problems too. For example, in 2005, the Labor party got an absolute majority at the UK Parliament while they got only 35% of the votes!! Why does no one speak about that? Do you think that it is normal?

A big part of it is that simply the lower the level of government the more contact those governing have with those they govern, and the more room for accountability and feedback there is.
 
A big part of it is that simply the lower the level of government the more contact those governing have with those they govern, and the more room for accountability and feedback there is.

I don't think you can call the House of Lords "democratic"
 
Europe has its own legal personality:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbp3_jFxxXs&feature=related"]YouTube- The Lisbon Treaty (EU Constitution) explained[/ame]

Its democracy serves itself primarily and serves to protect its new status.

_____________________


50 reasons to leave the European Union:


1. The European Unions six constitutional treaties build a dictatorship.

2. The EU has the laws of a police state - enforced after the Lisbon Treaty, from 1st January 2009.

3. The EU's 120,000 regulations will bring us a soviet style command economy and abject poverty.

4. Unelected EU dictators will control the nuclear weapons of former nations of Britain and France.

5. The EU 's six treaties will compel us to hand over all our armed forces to the EU.

6. Our armed forces and police have been told they will swear a new oath to the EU, or be fired.

7. The EUs 120,000 regulations will rigidly control our personal lives - more than any nation in history.

8. EU regulations now cost us £100 billion a year. (Better Regulation Commission annual report 2005)

9. When enforced, those regulations will destroy most of our 4.5 million small businesses.

10. Up to 13.5 million will be unemployed after EU regulations close small businesses.

11. The 120,000 regulations will make us subject to continual arrest (SOCPA 2005).

12. There are now 3,095 "Crimes against the EU state" on the British statute book.

13. We will be stopped on the street for continual checks on our EU ID cards after 2009.

14. The EU's Constitutional treaties replaced the British Constitution on 1st January 2009.

15. The EU treaties will close our Westminster Parliament after its 5 years expire on 5th May 2010.

16. The EU's Road Pricing and then ID chips will keep the state informed of our exact position.

17. Huge taxes/fines by the EU's Road Pricing, Congestion Charging and global warming policies.

18. The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish England and our 48 counties in favour of 9 EU regions.

19. The 9 EU regions will report direct to Brussels, not to Westminster, which will be defunct.

20. The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish our 19,579 councillors.

23. British common law mainly replaced by EU corpus Juris by 1992. Government is now above the law.

21. Police have shot 30 innocent people dead since 1992 and have not been successfully prosecuted.

22. 1,100 deaths in police custody since 1992 and no successful prosecutions.

24. Police Shoot to Kill policy now in force; illegal under British common law, OK under EU corpus juris.

25. EU conceived in Germany from 22nd June 1940 as the EEC - speech by Hermann Goering.

26. First EEC conference Berlin University 1942, 13 nation summit Berlin 1943 run by von Ribbentrop

27. After fall of Germany, the Germans switched the EU from a Nazi to a communist basis in1946.

28. Hitler's Deutsche Verteiderungs Dienst Intelligence Department (DVD) still controls EU development.

29. Edward Heath, Geoffrey Rippon, Roy Jenkins recruited by the DVD in 1958 as saboteurs.

30. DVD has arranged finance to put pro-EU ownerships into British newspaper groups.

31. EU has been sabotaging Britain with German Frankfurt School techniques since the 1950's.

33. The EU's main subversive organisation in Britain, Common Purpose, was run from the ODPM.

34. The EU's Common Purpose has trained 30,000 local leaders for "the post democratic era"

35. Common Purpose has been inside the NHS for 20 years, controls it, and has wrecked it.

36. Common Purpose has 400 staff inside the BBC censoring out anti-EU news and and current affairs.

37. Common Purpose has staff in hundreds of local newspapers censoring out anti-EU news

38. Common Purpose is transferring power from councillors to the unelected council executives.

39. Common Purpose has built the EU gravy trains inside local and national government.

40. Common Purpose has built most of Britain's 8,500 quangos costing us £167 billion pa

41. These quangos bribe compliant, pro EU local officials and businessmen with £150,000+ salaries.

42. EU quangos are the reason your council tax is going through the roof.

43. The EU is utterly corrupt and cannot account for 95% of its expenditure (yes, ninety five % lost)

44. The EU has over 200,000 offshore bank accounts from which it pays bribes.

45. We now lose £45 billion a year trading with the EU. Outside, we had an even balance of payments.

46. EU Constitution is similar to the Soviet. And EU Commissioners similar to Soviet Politburo members.

47. The EU parliament is a sham with no power - just like the old Soviet parliament.

48. The leadership of the Conservative Party has been controlled by the EU since the 1960's.

49. The Labour and Lib Dem leaderships EU controlled for 20 years - that's why your vote doesn't count.

50. The Amsterdam Treaty 1997 gave the EU control of our immigration, now running at 2.6 million pa.

51. Our infrastructure can't cope with the 10 million immigrants the EU has let in since 1997.

52. 380,000 highly qualified British emigrate annually to escape from the EU and its overcrowding.
 
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20 seconds of video, first lie: political integration was not "stealth", as I've already tried to explain you several times

Everyone knew it would be a political union. In the preamble of the Rome Treaty of 1957 (= 16 years before the Brits joined) they say that the economical treaties are "the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe".

In this way, the member States specifically affirmed the political objective of a progressive political integration.

The Treaty of Rome (1957) - The history of the European Union and European Citizenship


50 reasons to leave the European Union:


1. The European Unions six constitutional treaties build a dictatorship.

2. The EU has the laws of a police state - enforced after the Lisbon Treaty, from 1st January 2009.

3. The EU's 120,000 regulations will bring us a soviet style command economy and abject poverty.

4. Unelected EU dictators will control the nuclear weapons of former nations of Britain and France.

5. The EU 's six treaties will compel us to hand over all our armed forces to the EU.

6. Our armed forces and police have been told they will swear a new oath to the EU, or be fired.

7. The EUs 120,000 regulations will rigidly control our personal lives - more than any nation in history.

8. EU regulations now cost us £100 billion a year. (Better Regulation Commission annual report 2005)

9. When enforced, those regulations will destroy most of our 4.5 million small businesses.

10. Up to 13.5 million will be unemployed after EU regulations close small businesses.

11. The 120,000 regulations will make us subject to continual arrest (SOCPA 2005).

12. There are now 3,095 "Crimes against the EU state" on the British statute book.

13. We will be stopped on the street for continual checks on our EU ID cards after 2009.

14. The EU's Constitutional treaties replaced the British Constitution on 1st January 2009.

15. The EU treaties will close our Westminster Parliament after its 5 years expire on 5th May 2010.

16. The EU's Road Pricing and then ID chips will keep the state informed of our exact position.

17. Huge taxes/fines by the EU's Road Pricing, Congestion Charging and global warming policies.

18. The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish England and our 48 counties in favour of 9 EU regions.

19. The 9 EU regions will report direct to Brussels, not to Westminster, which will be defunct.

20. The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish our 19,579 councillors.

23. British common law mainly replaced by EU corpus Juris by 1992. Government is now above the law.

21. Police have shot 30 innocent people dead since 1992 and have not been successfully prosecuted.

22. 1,100 deaths in police custody since 1992 and no successful prosecutions.

24. Police Shoot to Kill policy now in force; illegal under British common law, OK under EU corpus juris.

25. EU conceived in Germany from 22nd June 1940 as the EEC - speech by Hermann Goering.

26. First EEC conference Berlin University 1942, 13 nation summit Berlin 1943 run by von Ribbentrop

27. After fall of Germany, the Germans switched the EU from a Nazi to a communist basis in1946.

28. Hitler's Deutsche Verteiderungs Dienst Intelligence Department (DVD) still controls EU development.

29. Edward Heath, Geoffrey Rippon, Roy Jenkins recruited by the DVD in 1958 as saboteurs.

30. DVD has arranged finance to put pro-EU ownerships into British newspaper groups.

31. EU has been sabotaging Britain with German Frankfurt School techniques since the 1950's.

33. The EU's main subversive organisation in Britain, Common Purpose, was run from the ODPM.

34. The EU's Common Purpose has trained 30,000 local leaders for "the post democratic era"

35. Common Purpose has been inside the NHS for 20 years, controls it, and has wrecked it.

36. Common Purpose has 400 staff inside the BBC censoring out anti-EU news and and current affairs.

37. Common Purpose has staff in hundreds of local newspapers censoring out anti-EU news

38. Common Purpose is transferring power from councillors to the unelected council executives.

39. Common Purpose has built the EU gravy trains inside local and national government.

40. Common Purpose has built most of Britain's 8,500 quangos costing us £167 billion pa

41. These quangos bribe compliant, pro EU local officials and businessmen with £150,000+ salaries.

42. EU quangos are the reason your council tax is going through the roof.

43. The EU is utterly corrupt and cannot account for 95% of its expenditure (yes, ninety five % lost)

44. The EU has over 200,000 offshore bank accounts from which it pays bribes.

45. We now lose £45 billion a year trading with the EU. Outside, we had an even balance of payments.

46. EU Constitution is similar to the Soviet. And EU Commissioners similar to Soviet Politburo members.

47. The EU parliament is a sham with no power - just like the old Soviet parliament.

48. The leadership of the Conservative Party has been controlled by the EU since the 1960's.

49. The Labour and Lib Dem leaderships EU controlled for 20 years - that's why your vote doesn't count.

50. The Amsterdam Treaty 1997 gave the EU control of our immigration, now running at 2.6 million pa.

51. Our infrastructure can't cope with the 10 million immigrants the EU has let in since 1997.

52. 380,000 highly qualified British emigrate annually to escape from the EU and its overcrowding.

The title of this list should be "Top 50 lies about the EU"
 
I think EU institutions should be made more directly democratic, they are moving in that direction, but not quickly enough IMO. In other words, I think the EU Parliament should become a proper Parliament, similar to a national Parliament, with respect to EU jursidictions. I think it would help make EU citizens be less apathetic about the EU, if they felt they could have more of a direct say in it.
 
I think EU institutions should be made more directly democratic, they are moving in that direction, but not quickly enough IMO. In other words, I think the EU Parliament should become a proper Parliament, similar to a national Parliament, with respect to EU jursidictions. I think it would help make EU citizens be less apathetic about the EU, if they felt they could have more of a direct say in it.

The Lisbon treaty includes a "direct democracy" measure:

60 Ideas for Europe : 1 million voices petition
 
20 seconds of video, first 'lie': political integration was not "stealth", as I've already tried to explain you several times....[/B]"

As I explained, it was barely publicised to a blissfully ignorant populace with no clue as to what really happens.

Same old circles, merrily we go 'round old chap.
 
As I explained, it was barely publicised to a blissfully ignorant populace with no clue as to what really happens.

Same old circles, merrily we go 'round old chap.

Why do you support referendums about the EU then, since you think that British people are too ignorant to understand what is going on?
 
That was a bit of a googly if you don't mind my saying so!

Politicians have the advantage of having all day every day to formulate their plots. Most people only have a short few hours after dinner to think about them. Busy people may not be able to take in all the ins-and-outs, but give people an overview of the pros and cons of anything and their common sense will give you the answer. That's probably why we have trial by jury.

As far as I'm aware, the first big open rumblings amongst our politicians over Europe, democracy and sovereignty were over the referendum debates in the '70s. Long after the 1957 Treaty of Rome aims were first quietly published; and way after Ted Heath sat on a 1960 letter from the Lord Chancellor calling on him to publicly speak on them.
 
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That was a bit of a googly if you don't mind my saying so!

What drugs are you on?

Politicians have the advantage of having all day every day to formulate their plots. Most people only have a short few hours after dinner to think about them. Busy people may not be able to take in all the ins-and-outs, but give people an overview of the pros and cons of anything and their common sense will give you the answer. That's probably why we have trial by jury.

Welcome to reality. We hire bankers to take care of our money because we are too busy, we hire doctors to take care of our bodies because we are too busy or dont want to become doctors ourselves. We hire police to protect us because we either dont have the time to do so ourselves or dont want too. We elect politicians to represent us in politics because we dont want too do it ourselves. That is the fact of life and how reality is.

Do politicians "plot" against the people? Sure there might be a few, but the majority do not. Do bankers "plot" against the people? Do doctors "plot" against the people? Do the police "plot" against the people?

As far as I'm aware, the first big open rumblings amongst our politicians over Europe, democracy and sovereignty were over the referendum debates in the '70s. Long after the 1957 Treaty of Rome aims were first quietly published; and way after Ted Heath sat on a 1960 letter from the Lord Chancellor calling on him to publicly speak on them.

And? Not the EU's fault that your politicians did not think it wise to use a referendum on the issue. Blame your spineless politicians. It is not the fault of the EU that even after membership and despite all the whining of Maggie Thatcher and the Conservative party, that they did not have the spine to put up a vote on membership. It is not the fault of the EU that even today, Cameron has gone back on his word of having a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. So stop accusing the EU of lack of democracy and being evil, when it is your own politicians that are causing most of your problems.

If the UK wants to leave the EU then there is nothing stopping it in doing so. But if it does, then it must suffer the consequences of doing so and not whine about it. The UK has constantly whined about the EEC and EU since it became a member, but it had no problem accepting billions in aid to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Reminds me of right wing American politicians that voted against the Obama stimulus and spoke out against it, but after the vote lobbied hard to get as much money as possible and went to various ceremonies opening of or ground breaking on projects paid by the very stimulus bill they voted against.. both are hypocrites.

As it stands now the EU is more democratic than ever. Not only have the national parliaments far more power than they use too, but the EU parliament also has considerable power on key areas of the EU, including budget and legislation. In fact I would claim that the EU is far more democratic than the UK political system as it stands now.. after all having a political system where getting 30% of the vote means you get a majority of votes in parliament is not exactly text book democratic is it now..

Now I have no problem with people like you being critical of the EU, if they used actual facts instead of the mostly made up or twisted facts they usually use. And of course there is the classic blaming the EU for things the EU has nothing to do with..

I personally have issues with quite a few things in the EU, but I believe that we are better off with the EU and the Euro than we are without. I am against CAP in principle but understand why it was put in place in the first place and why it is still needed considering the rest of the planet. I am against moving the EU parliament every 6 months and I am against for now a federal European Union. I am against expanding the EU to fast and believe that countries like Bulgaria and Romania and even Poland were and are not EU material yet. But the fact that the major powers have not been at war with each other in over 60 years shows the value of the European integration. Yes it is a record in European history that France, Spain and the UK have not been fighting each other over something.
 
Long after the 1957 Treaty of Rome aims were first quietly published;

"quietly"?? Are you kidding? That wasn't a notepage in some secret document, that was in the first page of a Treaty! If people are too stupid to realize that, they should not even be given the right to vote.
 
I do blame our misleading and treacherous politicians PeteEU, I sincerely and honestly do. That's the nub of the issue.

And as for Bub's claim that people should be disenfranchised for not knowing things they're unaware of, I can say that just sums up the modern Left.
 
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As I explained, it was barely publicised to a blissfully ignorant populace with no clue as to what really happens.

Same old circles, merrily we go 'round old chap.

All you do here is spread propaganda. Why dont you try to understand what the EU is and how it works and then come back with some real objections to the EU.

I am a supporter of the EU, but I have some valid objections and worries myself, but they certainly include none of your absurd propaganda.
 
That's like asking you to look at the workings of a rapist's mind to diffuse a forceful opposition to what he's done.
 
That's like asking you to look at the workings of a rapist's mind to diffuse a forceful opposition to what he's done.

This is why I think I will ignore you from now on.. The comparison is absurd.

Why do you never look at other governments? The whole political system is corrupt my friend, and you choose to critisize the best functioning(modern) and most promising one. :doh
 
I do blame our misleading and treacherous politicians PeteEU, I sincerely and honestly do. That's the nub of the issue.

Funny how your comments continue to avoid this over and over and over again.

And as for Bub's claim that people should be disenfranchised for not knowing things they're unaware of, I can say that just sums up the modern Left.

Actually it sums up both the left and the right and the centre. If you look around these boards it is so called libertarians and other right wingers that more than often advocate taking the vote away from people based on everything from financial situation over to education and worse.

And bud is right.. if people dont seek the relevant information then they have no right to have an opinion on it.. but we live in a democracy where anyone can have a vote so in the real world it is not possible.

That is why the anti-EU crowd often can win a discussion on the EU because they are often ill informed to say the least.. you are a classic example.
 
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