should Islam4UK march in Wootton Bassett?

Gardener said:

Actually, stupid people would be more likely to say that the banning of burqa is an expression of religious intolerance, especially considering that the wearing of such attire is not commanded or even encouraged in the religious texts.

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It's amazing that the people who are the least educated on the Islamic religion think they're actually defending it when they make false statements on the religion, such as the Burqa being some form of a religious duty in Islam.

Gardener said:

Actually, stupid people would be more likely to say that the banning of burqa is an expression of religious intolerance, especially considering that the wearing of such attire is not commanded or even encouraged in the religious texts.

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Yet there's no denying that people do use it as a form of religious expression. I can't begin to understand the irrationalities of theists, but I'll allow them their rights. Banning the burqa tends to be such a show of intolerance against Muslims, it's something specifically aimed at the Muslim community. Since the act in most free countries is a voluntary act and not forced through government, banning it can be ascribed no other attribute than a desire to come down on Muslims. The "protecting oppressed women" line is BS because none of the laws or regulations go into that, it only goes to ban a piece of clothing worn predominately by a certain religious sect. And that cannot be logically argued with.

Now, you want to talk about stupid, let's do it. But you're probably not going to like the outcome.

Apocalypse said:

It's amazing that the people who are the least educated on the Islamic religion think they're actually defending it when they make false statements on the religion, such as the Burqa being some form of a religious duty in Islam.

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There seems to be an underlying attitude that in order to defend Islam, one needs to defend it's most violent, extremist elements.

It strikes me much along the same lines as wanting to defend Germans by acting as apologist for nazis.

All these attitudes accomplish is to enable the extremists, which ends up punishing most those the deluded think they are defending -- ordinary Muslims.

Apocalypse said:

I think you're doing good enough on your own, Ikari. :mrgreen:

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Nothing I wrote was anywhere near intolerant of religion or xenophobic. Do you need the definitions of those things to understand. Or maybe you'd actually like to back up your claims? Yes? No? Didn't think so.

Ikari said:

Hey! How are we going to use the government to enforce religious intolerance and xenophobia if you're going to talk rational and logical like? Get on the trolley!

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:lol:. I think in some quarters its motivated by genuine concern rather than bigotry but like i say, blunt instrument.

Ikari said:

Yet there's no denying that people do use it as a form of religious expression. I can't begin to understand the irrationalities of theists, but I'll allow them their rights. Banning the burqa tends to be such a show of intolerance against Muslims, it's something specifically aimed at the Muslim community. Since the act in most free countries is a voluntary act and not forced through government, banning it can be ascribed no other attribute than a desire to come down on Muslims. The "protecting oppressed women" line is BS because none of the laws or regulations go into that, it only goes to ban a piece of clothing worn predominately by a certain religious sect. And that cannot be logically argued with.

Now, you want to talk about stupid, let's do it. But you're probably not going to like the outcome.

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You were the one who indtroduced the comments regarding stupidity.

If you wish to compare, however, I would be more than happy top oblige.

Gardener said:

There seems to be an underlying attitude that in order to defend Islam, one needs to defend it's most violent, extremist elements.

It strikes me much along the same lines as wanting to defend Germans by acting as apologist for nazis.

All these attitudes accomplish is to enable the extremists, which ends up punishing most those the deluded think they are defending -- ordinary Muslims.

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I am speaking out on behalf of freedom and religion, not any particular religion. In this specific thread it takes on the light of defending a religious sect's right to choose to wear pieces of clothing. Their choice. You want to ascribe different attributes to dismiss the argument, but in the end it's all about freedom and liberty.

Gardener said:

You were the one who indtroduced the comments regarding stupidity.

If you wish to compare, however, I would be more than happy top oblige.

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Indeed, and the original comment stands. People who think that banning the burka is going to have some affect of domestic violence or oppression are stupid. It's the truth. But oblige if you want because I think you'll find yourself on the losing end of the argument.

Ikari said:

Indeed, and the original comment stands. People who think that banning the burka is going to have some affect of domestic violence or oppression are stupid. It's the truth. But oblige if you want because I think you'll find yourself on the losing end of the argument.

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and my comment still stands. Those who think that banning the burqa is a sign of religious intolerance are stupid.

Do I need to say it again. Wearing the burqa is not commanded or even encouraged in Islam, or ANY religion. Duh! :doh

Ikari said:

Indeed, and the original comment stands. People who think that banning the burka is going to have some affect of domestic violence or oppression are stupid. It's the truth. But oblige if you want because I think you'll find yourself on the losing end of the argument.

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What a silly argument to make, indeed one has to be a total idiot for such an argument to be made.

I can only assume that one has let lose of one's hands and let them fall on the keyboard in order to create such an astonishingly stupid argument.

Gardener said:

and my comment still stands. Those who think that banning the burqa is a sign of religious intolerance are stupid.

Do I need to say it again. Wearing the burqa is not commanded or even encouraged in Islam, or ANY religion. Duh! :doh

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And I already responded. It's not a habit of general people; it's a clothing item specific to a certain religious sect. I'm sure many religions adopted traditions not in the holy books. Does the Bible say something about not eating meat on Friday during lent or hiding Easter eggs? Yet both of those things are religious tradition celebrated by a certain sect. Just because it's not in some holy book doesn't matter. Those books were written by man, as were the rules each sect follows.

I told you that you wouldn't like the outcome.

Red_Dave said:

:lol:. I think in some quarters its motivated by genuine concern rather than bigotry but like i say, blunt instrument.

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I can understand that. When I first saw the wives of people in the organisation this thread is about, standing back fully covered while their husbands protested, I was concerned. That was 12 women. There are however hundreds of thousands of Muslim women for them to go to, never mind the general population if the women want out.

I was reading somewhere that some country, was it Belguim bub, or maybe even Holland, had stopped Muslims wearing the Hijab to school but is continuing to allow Sikhs to wear Turbans.

I have concerns about this. I do agree that some members of populations can go with the idea for the best of reasons but I think we need to look at the bigger picture.

I also agree that they will just find a way round if they really believe it is right. I remember seeing a film on Muslim women in Turkey unable to go to University wearing a hijab. They were buying wigs - and the ones that they thought made them look the most ugly!

......

and of course we know this is not a Muslim custom. People have argued that on other threads. It is just allowing women to make their own choices while not engaged in work or other activities where it would be innappropriate.

Apocalypse said:

It's amazing that the people who are the least educated on the Islamic religion think they're actually defending it when they make false statements on the religion, such as the Burqa being some form of a religious duty in Islam.

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Apocalypse said:

What a silly argument to make, indeed one has to be a total idiot for such an argument to be made.

I can only assume that one has let lose of one's hands and let them fall on the keyboard in order to create such an astonishingly stupid argument.

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Do you have anything other than personal attacks to offer?

roderic said:

Do you have anything other than personal attacks to offer?

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I can only offer one what he has to offer in return.

To hopefully bring this thread back on track

Its good that our mainstream politicians have came out and condemned any plans of a march through the town

The prime minister said:

"The Prime Minister's view would be obviously that anything that is considered to be offensive to, or of concern to, families of troops wounded or killed in Afghanistan would be completely inappropriate."

The main opposition leader said:

David Cameron condemned the march and added that Mr Choudary came close to encouraging "hatred, extremism and violence".


Speaking during a visit to the Rowcroft Medical Centre in Stroud, Gloucestershire, Mr Cameron said: "I think that it is completely unacceptable for that (the march) to happen

Political leaders condemn Islamic protest march - Home News, UK - The Independent

Its also encouraging that moderate Muslims are also showing condemnation


"Because, in a few silent moments, these two shy, unassuming grandparents had done more for national race relations and inter-faith solidarity than a legion of box-ticking equality commissars.

Samina and Abdul just happen to be Muslims who live in Wootton Bassett. But when a press photographer spotted them in the crowd at Tuesday's repatriation ceremony, they suddenly became a symbolic reminder of the majority of British Muslims, those who are peace-loving, patriotic and as proud of our Armed Forces as anyone else. "

How the Muslim mourners are displaying real patriotism at Wootton Bassett | Mail Online

The article goes on to add many relevant points for topic.

Paul

gunner said:

To hopefully bring this thread back on track

Its good that our mainstream politicians have came out and condemned any plans of a march through the town

The prime minister said:

"The Prime Minister's view would be obviously that anything that is considered to be offensive to, or of concern to, families of troops wounded or killed in Afghanistan would be completely inappropriate."

The main opposition leader said:

David Cameron condemned the march and added that Mr Choudary came close to encouraging "hatred, extremism and violence".


Speaking during a visit to the Rowcroft Medical Centre in Stroud, Gloucestershire, Mr Cameron said: "I think that it is completely unacceptable for that (the march) to happen

Political leaders condemn Islamic protest march - Home News, UK - The Independent

Its also encouraging that moderate Muslims are also showing condemnation


"Because, in a few silent moments, these two shy, unassuming grandparents had done more for national race relations and inter-faith solidarity than a legion of box-ticking equality commissars.

Samina and Abdul just happen to be Muslims who live in Wootton Bassett. But when a press photographer spotted them in the crowd at Tuesday's repatriation ceremony, they suddenly became a symbolic reminder of the majority of British Muslims, those who are peace-loving, patriotic and as proud of our Armed Forces as anyone else. "

How the Muslim mourners are displaying real patriotism at Wootton Bassett | Mail Online

The article goes on to add many relevant points for topic.

Paul

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Thanks Paul. He certainly is a nuisance to the Muslim community. It was his stint at the army home coming which gave the EDL a suitable excuse to come into being. Muslim's in, I think, Luton had to send them packing when they kept causing an annoyanance there and they felt the backlash.

There has been plenty of protests by Muslims. Muslims in the surrounding area have also protested saying the march should not go ahead and they will hold them responsible for any backlash on the Muslim community.

I found this link

Choudary has shown himself to be a masterful tactician and I suspect he has accomplished what he wanted, which is to stir up yet more hatred of Muslims in the nation.

.....

In a nutshell, Choudary and his colleagues know that the more Islamophobia they stir up the more members of the Muslim community will be inclined to look to them for a lead.

...One thing I do know. Hatred and anger is not the answer. We do not need to respond to Anjem Choudary at a gut level response. We need to do all we can to ignore him and his friends. And we need to seek to do all we can to reach out to the Muslim community and engage with them positively.

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www.reconciliationtalk.com: An outpouring of anger at Anjem Choudary is not the answer.


That article does not believe the march will go ahead. I hope it does not and just gets canncelled for the same reason as the first - embarressment at not finding enough people to come.

I am sick of Choudary. My god, that man is the thorn on every Muslims side.
I hope it does not occur, it would be beyond insulting.

I think they will lose in the end.Ive seen young girls in burkas secretly kissing their white boyfriends.

Islam will change through females.From Iran to saudi arabia.I think the muslim world will be the biggest achievement of the feminist movement. Malalai Joya is an example of the change.