new coup for you

A general criticism of the American political dialogue from British expats (at least leftist ones) is that Americans tend to avoid frank discussion regarding class issues, relegating "class politics" to the "un-American" fringe.

In general I agree that class structure and relations are avoided in this country not only in political dialogue but also in our very cultural identity- the American consciousness remains naive and ignorant of class reality, allowing our labor groups to be led astray by rightist capital elements and associated social bodies (religion, etc.)

However, that being said...

Might it be that while the US remains TOO focused on religion, race, nationalism and other "identity groups" perhaps British culture is similarly lopsided towards class?

The British obsession with class doesn't just manifest itself in beneficial socialist politics- it also manifests itself in bias and class based xenophobia (seemingly occupying the same position as race does in the US).

Your classes have accents. You can tell someone's wealth just by talking to them. That's weird- and nearly unthinkable in the US.

Doesn't it seem possible that while focusing on class allows beneficial class consciousness, it also reinforces class ceilings and stunts mobility?

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And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

PeteEU

I aint British, however I have lived among Brits most of my childhood and quite a bit of my adulthood and gone to British schools.

From my point of view, "Class" issues exist in the UK but not as much as it use to. Things have really changed the last 2 decades. But my question is why you are asking the British "Liberals".. who are the Lib Dems, and not Labour.. technically Class is a left over from centuries of conservative rule, and especially the rule of Queen Victoria.

That's a rather large generalization, but some what true. However there are more and more exceptions, and in fact I would contend that in today's society there are more exceptions than the "general view". My reasoning is that "class" in the UK, while still a deep cultural thing, is very diluted compared to previous times. I have met Brits of considerable wealth, who I had a very hard time understanding due to their accents, and these were often second or third generation wealthy. As for you saying its weird and nearly unthinkable in the US... I disagree, but I also use generalizations. Often you can hear on a person, not only their intelligence but also their wealth. White trash, or blacks from the hood.. "you know like, man" are a generalization but also the American version of "class". Just because a person has a New England or north western accent in the US does it mean that they are "better off", or that a person has a deep Bronx accent that this person is part of the Mafia or a criminal.. aka lower class.

Just because a Black American speaks like .. "you know, like, da man" and whatever other stereo typical black American comments you can think off, does not mean he is a criminal or poor. Granted there is a rather large chance of it, but its not set in stone far from it. The same goes for the Brits (and other nations). Just because the person has a welsh accent does not mean they are poor and deprived. Just because a person has a northern accent (around Newcastle) does not mean that they are dirt poor laid off shipbuilders, or coal miners. Just because a person has an accent from Birmingham means that he is a radical muslim, poor someone or whatever.

You can meet wealthy people in all parts of British society, just as you can in American, but the generalizations by outsiders and even locals, are often based on historical and cultural things than actual reality.

For example, there are Asian and Muslim lords and ladies, hardly possible in a society based on a class structure. Just as there are black and Latino millionaires and celebrities in the US. This of course does not mean they are accepted among the corridors of power and "old world" class elitists, on both sides of the continent, but they do exist.

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PeteEU

Scucca

One has to refer to class in order to understand social mobility. The difference with the US is that there is, at most, greater willingness to admit immobility problems. However, that largely just leads to soundbites as our consensus politics finds means to avoid the radical policies required. The end result? Yanks and limeys, peas in a pod!

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Red_Dave

Absolutely. There was a survey done by the guardian recently [which i can and try and dig up if anyones interested] were quite a high percentage of teachers admitted they they would treat a student differently according to his or her accent. Some even admitted not trusting children whos names sounded working class.

I certainly noticed this in school given how in this country pupils are put into different classes or "sets" according their ability in perform in different subjects [in theory]. I tended to do very well in History and Geography but very badly in Maths so i ended up in the top set for the former and the bottom set for the latter. I could definatly notice a big difference in accent between the two so that to me would surgest a big difference in the amount of opertunity people from different backgrounds are given and a degree of descrimination.

The thing you have to remember about education is that the expectations teachers have of a student will effect how well the student does. There was an experiment in which about 30 elementary school students of mixed ability were given an I.Q test. After the test the teachers where told that about 12 of these pupils had a "special intelligence" and the teaching staff should make an effort to try and nurture it. Naturally this was complete bull**** and the 12 students had been selected at random. However when they came back to the school the 12 students in question had performed better then the rest of the class.

I think this would explain how theres no social mobility in this country because working class children are written off from day one.

Scucca

You'll struggle to find empirical support for this one! The UK is not exceptional in terms of social immobility. How do you account, for example, for Britain's similarity with the US?

Red_Dave

I,ve no idea what its like in relation to other countrys but its certainly in a pretty bad state. You only need to look at the disproportinatly high amount of privately educated people, and disproportionatly low amount of people from inner city areas getting into Oxbridge to see how bad it is.

Scucca

Given wealth concentration, you'd expect immobility in capitalist countries. It just happens that Britain does not particularly stand out. Despite their American Dream nonsense, the US does no better. This supports the hypothesis that class is the norm. We just cannot hide from it, particularly given our longer history (and revolutionary failures).

Inequality of opportunity is also a standard phenomenon. There's little British-specific comment to make.

PeteEU

Well that's because of your ancient old class structure that has been eroded over the last 100 years. That's not saying that its not there any more, just not as big as it once was. Today there is a chance that random Joe from London or Newcastle can get into the elite schools of the Uk.. 50 or 100 years ago?.. hell no.

Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale and other top schools are the poster children of class society. Their reputations are based on former class divisions in society, which have continued over into the modern world. Yes there are scholarships for "non wealthy" but many of these schools are only for the rich, which excludes a huge majority of the population. Unless you have exceptional skills or a big bank balance, the chances of getting into Harvard are zero. Its a bit better for Oxford and Cambridge, but the traditions still reign supreme.

On the continent, there is only one school with similar "class" issues that I can think off.. and that's the French university that educates Frances civil servants and diplomats.. cant remember the name. Its very elite orientated and socially based, but even that is being eroded.

Class structure are a remnant of historically conservative rules through out the centuries and are damn hard to get rid off. Even in a state like Denmark, we have our "class" issues still, despite Denmark being one of the most "classless" societies around (socially and economically). The rich and elite, send their kids to one specific boarding school if at all possible, but even here the boarding school not only opened up for girls (was a big think 15 years ago) but also was forced to accept students of all ranks of society. The school still commands some respect on your CV, but no where near as it once did. Same goes for an old economics school.. the name and building exists, but the name as been carboned copied on all economic schools in Copenhagen, and diluted the name so to say.. so being a graduate of said school (even the right one), is not a big deal any more.. not as it was when my fathers generation graduated there.

Its always the conservative parts of society that refuse to break down the barriers of class, as it will hit them the hardest often.. and this is regardless if its the UK, Denmark or the US. The worst examples of a conservative class based society going bonkers was the French and Russian.. that did not exactly end well for the conservatives that were against changes.

Look at the US. Many Americans say there is no real class differences in society.. and of course I disagree. Not only are there clear class differences between the races, but also between sexual orientations. Now the barriers are being broken of course and its no where near as bad as it was just 40 years ago, but the conservative (not political but in spirit), often white, are often those refusing or even attempting to block and role back advances in social integration and removing of the class barriers. May it be trying to prevent homosexuals from getting the same rights as hetros, or political gerrymandering to marginalize certain people in districts, its all a class struggle.

Class divisions is not only royalty and titles.

Scucca

The elite schools are only a symptom of more general education failures. For example, class divides have actually been strengthened by the general increase in the size of the tertiary education sector (ensuring a plump middle class that are able to fight off, to an extent, meritocracy)

gunner

I disagree. The idea of the "sets" principle is for a pupil to be judged on academic ability alone. The notion that a persons "accent" has a bearing is ludicrous. My daughter attends a Grammar school and mixes with children from the affluent extremely rich, to the socially supported family's. The opportunity is there for all [obviously with strong family support]. The discrimination aspect will obviously come into play for the disadvantaged who end up with "the bad apple" parents and it is for them that i feel. With my daughter attending a school of this nature it will i hope give her the opportunity for social mobility if that's her wish.

Paul.

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Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.