new coup for you

mixed commuting is probably the future...suburbanites commuting by car to RR stations. Philly has a fantastic RR network and at one point a decent parking garage network to accompanying it, but it's operating at over capacity. The problem is, as it is in many places, inner-ring suburban communities are really sensitive to having their land developed into mid-rise parking garages.

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And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride my bike.

Scucca

Any expansion of the EU can only encourage regionalism. Regionalism threatens multilateralism and the construction of sound international trade policy.

The UK should do the world a favour and leave the European folly...

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Red_Dave

I can sympatheise with most of those statements but wouldnt that be throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Why not reform the E.U and keep the benefits while getting rid of the problems in the way it operates at the moment?

Scucca

These preferential trade agreements limit the possibility of multilateral trade agreements, as shown by the EU part in restricting WTO reform. Also reform is not as easy as you'd think. Just look at how the folly of the Common Agricultural Policy has been allowed to continue. I'd also like to refer to old chestnuts like neoliberalism and how, given the inability to ensure democratic control, these supra-organisations strengthen the power of the capitalist elite (to the detriment of the poor pleb)

PeteEU

Sorry but you are way off bat there if you ask me.

WTO reform has been restricted by many nations, and yes including the EU. May it be the south american countries, the US, asian countries, or the EU, they all had a major part in the impasse there has been.

As for the common agricultural policy. The UK has benifited hugely from it, as all countries within the EU. Does it need to be scrapped? Sure, but we cant scarp it as long as the US keeps its subsidies in place, and as long as other countries dont allow free trade and so on. Plus we cant "scrap" it over night, and the system has been reformed and brought down quite considerably since it was at its hieght.. we for example dont have the mountains of food lying around anymore.

On top of that, its in the EU interest to have local production of food and that was the whole reason for the policy in the first place. Yes its protecting European farmers, but frankly I would rather spend a few euros protecting them, than having random nation outside the EU having the power over the EU on a basic thing like food. Its bad enough that Russia has the EUs balls in its fist over natural gas.. how about meat, wheat and other food stables?

And for all the EU bashing, the UK was almost a 3rd world country when it joined in 1973, and now look at it. This little fact, that many anti EU Brits keep forgetting.. the UK economy was horrible before entering the EU, near bankrupt.

Reform in the EU is needed, no doubt about that, but the benifits being inside the EU far far far outwiegh the negatives. I am also only talking about the core things the EU was set up to do, argiculture, fishing and free trade.. not the stuff that some politicans want to add, like taxes, or what not,, thats a whole other debate and I bet we could agree on most of it.. not needed at the present time.

The EU has its place, and the UK has its place in the EU as the UK would not be what it was today if it was not for the EU. Hell with all the money going to the diprived areas of the UK from the EU.. Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland.

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PeteEU

Scucca

Whilst you've acknowledged the role that the EU has played, I do think you're underplaying it. Regionalism has inflamed Europe's conservatism and it isn't a pretty sight

How are you going to justify that? Give we're talking about money stolen from the British taxpayer for protectionism that has harmed comparative advantage and led to higher prices, its going to need some nifty foot work. I hope you're not going to refer to the subsidies received by the likes of Prince Charles!

Can you show me expenditure figures to show "considerable" reductions in subsidies?

That is delivered by productivity. Protectionism is a hindrance.

That wasn't a cunning comment! The best you have is that the EU has generated trade creation effects. Of course we also have to factor in trade divergence, as our traditional commonwealth trade ties were weakened.

That is not a fact. It is a load of bobbins! I'm afraid your Europhiling has given you some form of anti-nostalgia, with a warped view of our economic past

Red_Dave

I still failing to see who the C.A.P is benefitting other than landowners and supermarkets. All the farmers i know are stuggleing to make a living but at the same time the royal family pockets milliones of pounds of european tax payers money as a result [some of which comes from poor countrys in eastern europe that have far better uses for it].

At the same time African and South American countrys are getting screwed over [as if they didnt have enough problems already] because there markets are getting flooded with cheap subsidised goods and they cant access european markets.

What success has the C.A.P brought about other than making the poor poorer and the rich richer?

PeteEU

I agree it aint a pretty sight, but its also not a pretty sight seeing hidden subsidies by the US goverment to US farmers and companies, or Japan or China blocking imports of goods, or China having near slave labour so being able to see goods at extremly reduced prices, not to mention thier currency. There are plenty of villians on the world stage.

Its easy to justify. After WW2 Europes food prodcution was extremly reduced, not to mention quite a few nations did no have the food producing capability to feed thier own populations. Industry was destroyed and so on. The idea behind the agreements that lead to the EEC and later the EU, was to secure that Europe had among other things, its own food production so that it was not dependant on outside nations. That has succeded pure and simple and that in my view justified the subsidies at the time. Did it raise prices? Yes it did, a side effect in offering higher than world market prices to farmers, so they stayed in business, while encouraging and investing in better production methods. That it then turned out to be a sleeping pill is another matter, but having the system was a good thing, else we would have far far fewer if any farms in Europe, and not able to support our own population with food.

And no one has "stolen" money from the british taxpayer as the UK has had very benificial agreements with the EU and has up to very recently been reciving more money than it has put into the EU.

Not off hand no, will have to dig a bit. All I remember is that years ago, I read that EU subsidies were being phased down slowly and shifted to other projects.

No its a political choice, just as having a military or not, providing universal healthcare for ones citizens or not. And yes it is protectionism, but there is so much protectionism in the world, and it has been wayyyyy worse, even between allies and inside the what is now known as the EU.

Not a cunning comment, but the truth. The UK economy was in shambles in the early 1970s. As for your "traditional" trade ties with former colonies... well I would contend that it was the former colonies that weakened the links, with thier own forms of protectionism.. India comes to mind.

Hardly.

Economic history of Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Red_Dave

Then surely the solution is to increase the amount of democratic control europeans have over the E.U [I.E through citizens initiatives, powers of removal e.t.c]

I,ld see neoliberalism as an example of how the E.U is needed. Given the amount of influence organisations like the I.M.F and large corporations have, international organisations where there is a degree of democracy [albiet a small one] could play a useful role in balancing this out. The european parliament is one of the few places where rich nations can be made accountable to poor ones.

PeteEU

C.A.P is keeping the farmers in Europe in business pure and simple. Farmers will always whine, always have, but if it was not for C.A.P they would not be farmers. I am not saying that C.A.P is fair but politicaly it is and was the only way to do it. If we did not have C.A.P the farmers would have to compete on world prices, and that would mean at best huge mega farms, and at worst no farms at all because its not economicaly viable to run. Look at the US, they still have subsidies, dispite having mega farms about the size of Luxemborg and yes American farmers are also whining over something always.

African countries are getting screwed yes, but not as much as they use too be. They have special access to the EU markets, access that the US or other nations dont have. That they cant keep the peace long enough to start a production worth a damn, is another matter.

As for South American countries, give me a freaking break. Brazil is the worlds biggest food producer, with Argenitna not far behind (certain foods). And the South Americans are complaining because the EU has an agreement with African countries to import thier inferior goods instead of the South American ones.. specially bananas.

There is no doubt our protectionism is bad for the 3rd world (some of it at least) but our protectionism was put in place to defend the European farmer and keep food production in Europe. Its political, and strategically insane to allow so much food production out of Europe, that we have to import food to feed our citizens. That way we are at the mercy of the people we buy food from.. look at oil or gas for example.

And the 3rd world countries are no better, as they also have protectionistic policies in place. India for example only recently allowed non Indians to own under 50% in companies in India. Coco Cola and so on, does not own thier subsideries in India. The US bans non US ownerships of media (reason Murdoch had to become an american), airlines, steel mills and other industries, that are seen as "vital" industries. Yes the EU has similar laws in some places.

We will never get rid of protectionism as long as we are not "one planet" with one goverment, all working on making life better for all men and women, regardless on where they live, religion, race and age. Yes it sounds corny, but its a fact.