bub

Turkey in Europe? Not unless Mexico becomes the 51st state!

__________________
===|:-)

new coup for you

If I had to choose an ally, and it was between...Croatia or one of those other crappy Balkan nations, and Turkey...

Turkey's a mighty country with nothing but potential for the future.

__________________
======OBAMA
===========2008

And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

Slainte

Well this is why the Copenhagen criteria was created.

I agree that in order for the EU to be stable the states who join must be politically and socially similar to the current members. However I don't think you can just say it would be socially damaging to accept Turkey or Serbia full stop. Instead you say right now those countries aren't as "enlightened" as they need to be and you give them reform targets. I don't think there is any fundamental reasons why they can't become functioning mebers of the EU.

Now obviously increaseing membership in itself makes decision making harder, that's really why we need an overall constitution for the thing to replace all the agreements that have been built up over the years. Trying to get one everyone can agree on is going to be pretty bloody difficult though.

__________________
We all live under the same sky, but we don't all have the same horizon

Thales

Good point - setting reform criteria would be the best route. Though at the moment, Serbia seems too preoccupied with Kosovo and putting its government back together to worry about that. Not to mention that Kosovo's independence has put them at odds with the rest of the EU after they recognized their declaration. Serbia may very well reform enough to merit membership, but not in the current situation.

The problem I see with Turkey - besides the obvious geographical and demographic differences with much of Europe - is that it unlocks a whole new set of issues. From their internal religious wrestling to the PKK and the Kurds, it suddenly brings a country intricately connected to the Middle East into the European sphere. I'd say that the potential for reform is definitely there - but the long term political entanglements and baggage it brings to the table could be a hindrance.

Out of curiosity, what do people think of Israel's potential membership bid?

bub

I've got several problems with the Turks in Europe: they are either nationalists (that brought us WWI) or islamist (we don't want that neither)

new coup for you

Yeah...whereas France, the heart of the EU, is really unationalist...

You should go to Istanbul, it's cheaper then Paris, more exotic and the people are actually nicer to Americans...

Slainte

Yeah, there are some pretty big political issues about Serbia joining, the big EU states recognising Kosovo has really hurt in Belgrade and right now there is a lot of populist anti-EU sentiment.

On the other hand though, Serbia is almost certainly going to fall behind some of it's neighboring states who are EU members, GDP per capita in Slovenia for example ( a fromer Yugoslav state) is 5 times what it is in Serbia. When you consider that Serbia used to dominate Yugolslavia and still thinks of herself as the big fish in the Balkans she isn't going to like her new position. If she's smart she'll realise the only way she can catch up is by joing the EU. The EU projects massive soft power in the East, more even than the US IMO.

Yeah, I think it's fair to say their are huge reforms required in Turkey in order for them to join. To me Turkey is a country which generally doesn't know what it's doing these days, politically, socially and geographically it's split between Europe and the Middle East. I don't doubt that the Turkish elite have a very genuine desire to make Turkey a real European country; liberal, progressive, secular etc. Too much of the general populace however just seems to want the economic advantages they'll get because of it. They'll pay lip service to the social commitments and reap the economic rewards. That's not the way the EU should be working. I think we should give them an open door and encourage them to make reforms, but we can't just let them in because they're a muslim ally in an important geographic location, the EU should be about more than realpolitik.

They won't make one for a few simple reasons:

1)They'd have to scrap their law of return which basically finishes them as a Jewish state.

2)None of Israel is actually in Europe which supposedly disaqaulifies them.

3) I think you'd have to have actual borders before you get to join, so we know exactly what is joining, Israel doesn't have those.

Israel and the EU have a free trade deal and a few other joint projects. Germany always does a lot of work to keep EU-Israeli relations good and Germany is still the biggest fish in Europe so I'd say the EU-Israeli relationship is pretty stable but not leading anywhere new.

bub

French are chauvinistic, that's just very boring but nothing more

Some Turks are really 1914-like nationalist and mistreat the Kurds because of that

Yeah, at least, unlike the French, they don't tell jokes about Belgians

new coup for you

I think I've met some snooty Parisians that probably would have somthing to say about "those low countries"

I think the French see the EU as nothing but an extension of their own nationalist ego.

DarkWizard12

[quote=bub;1057552795]I don't see how democratic countries whose culture, religion and economic interrests are very close, could be at war with each other.
[quote]
Me neither, why DID Britain invade France in the hundred years war?

BEcause the USA is not union, its one country. It can;t invade itself, nor could alabama invade NY because it has no troops. Totally different situation than, say, the Balkans?