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European court: Swiss Muslim girls must swim with boys

JANFU

JANFU

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European court: Swiss Muslim girls must swim with boys | Switzerland News | Al Jazeera

The parents, both Turkish-Swiss dual nationals, appealed to the court over a fine handed down by education authorities after they declined to send two of their daughters to mixed swimming lessons.

They said that the requirement, imposed by the school up until the age of puberty as part of its physical education curriculum, violated their right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion enshrined in article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

While the court acknowledged that the requirement was an interference with the freedom of religion, it ruled that the interference represented a "legitimate aim" to protect foreign pupils from social exclusion
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Agree-Disagree- thoughts are??
 
Apparently they can't follow their own laws.

Change the law and make no exceptions.
 
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Religion shouldn't be targeted for discrimination (like the burkini ban) AND it shouldn't get special treatment. So I am fine with this ruling.
 
If the parents were allowed to exclude the girls from a particular class based
on freedom of thought, conscience and religion,
what would stop them from excluding the girls from every class?
 
Great ruling... validating sexism to accomodate a religion is backward thinking. The parents can move if they feel strongly about it.
 
Excon said:
Apparently they can't follow their own laws.

Change the law and make no exceptions.
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What is most remarkable is the fact that the court of last resort is not in the jurisdiction of the national sovereign.
 
joG said:
What is most remarkable is the fact that the court of last resort is not in the jurisdiction of the national sovereign.
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Had I not known that is how the EU is set up I might agree it is remarkable, but as it is, I just find it reprehensible that they gave away their sovereignty.
 
BrewerBob said:
Religion shouldn't be targeted for discrimination (like the burkini ban) AND it shouldn't get special treatment. So I am fine with this ruling.
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That depends on the constitution. This is similar to forcing a child to shake hands with the teacher, where this is religiously forbidden the child.
 
joG said:
That depends on the constitution. This is similar to forcing a child to shake hands with the teacher, where this is religiously forbidden the child.
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Fair point, but I was speaking without regard to the constitution and just talking about how I think things should be done. I'm not up to speed with their laws on this.
 
joG said:
That depends on the constitution. This is similar to forcing a child to shake hands with the teacher, where this is religiously forbidden the child.
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Are they going to be Swiss, or just a colony of Muslims in Switzerland? Most large cities now have "language and culture" ghettos caused by immigrants trying to carve out a place for the old country within the host country. That is not good for social adhesion. Everyone gets treated like normal Swiss citizen.

I say you should adopt to the culture of the place you moved to, or leave.
 
Excon said:
Had I not known that is how the EU is set up I might agree it is remarkable, but as it is, I just find it reprehensible that they gave away their sovereignty.
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Interestingly Switzerland is not even part of the EU. In their case I am unsure that there was a referendum on this specific point. In other countries this sovereignty was transfered without consent and without the constitutional requirements. In Germany the EU treaties are only legal, if the Bundesverfassungsgericht (German high court) and the Bundestag ( parliament) maintain this sovereignty.
 
chuckiechan said:
Are they going to be Swiss, or just a colony of Muslims in Switzerland? Most large cities now have "language and culture" ghettos caused by immigrants trying to carve out a place for the old country within the host country. That is not good for social adhesion. Everyone gets treated like normal Swiss citizen.

I say you should adopt to the culture of the place you moved to, or leave.
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I am not sure you are right to demand that everyone should act the same. One of the factors American success is attributed to is the great diversity of the society.
 
Excon said:
Apparently they can't follow their own laws.

Change the law and make no exceptions.
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I'm sure the law is only followed so long as it doesn't violate other aspects of the law. We have freedom of religion but if I join some ancient pagan religion I can't sacrifice my child to Baal. I'm guessing here they are ruling in favor of non-discrimination/segregation.
 
chuckiechan said:
Are they going to be Swiss, or just a colony of Muslims in Switzerland? Most large cities now have "language and culture" ghettos caused by immigrants trying to carve out a place for the old country within the host country. That is not good for social adhesion. Everyone gets treated like normal Swiss citizen.

I say you should adopt to the culture of the place you moved to, or leave.
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That doesn't happen. Take a look at the US. We have been having these communities since we began. I mean...that was the purpose of the colonies. Now Europe gets to experience the joys of being colonized...or really immigration. :)


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I don't know. Maybe I don't understand the issue, but this feels like a serious compromise of emotional safety as well as the rights of the religious.

IF they do not want to put their child in the swimming lesson because it is mixed...they should not have to do so. And it should be up to the place offering the lessons to determine if that is an undue burden to provide a "girls only" class. Do they have enough kids? Instructors? But under no circumstances should you force the family to do something against their religion.


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BrewerBob said:
Religion shouldn't be targeted for discrimination (like the burkini ban) AND it shouldn't get special treatment. So I am fine with this ruling.
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They are being fined for lack of participation. Shouldn't that be the parents choice? Why not allow the parents to opt the child out of the class? No fine. But do not cave and create a different class. I fail to see how fining them is anything other than religious discrimination.


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blackjack50 said:
They are being fined for lack of participation. Shouldn't that be the parents choice? Why not allow the parents to opt the child out of the class? No fine. But do not cave and create a different class. I fail to see how fining them is anything other than religious discrimination.


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Can people opt out for non religious regions? If so then I agree with you. But if opting out for any reason is not allowed then it is not religious discrimination. Refusing to give special treatment is not discrimination. I don't know enough about their rules to know which it is.
 
Excon said:
Had I not known that is how the EU is set up I might agree it is remarkable, but as it is, I just find it reprehensible that they gave away their sovereignty.
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Has nothing to do with the EU.

The European Court of Human Rights was set up a decade before the EEC was even thought off. It was set up to make sure that another Nazi Germany could not creep in. The convention was written mostly on the basis of British Common Law with a bit of French influence (and hence American). Once you have signed up to the convention, then you are bound by the rulings of said court.

Again this has nothing to do with the EU.
 
This one I don't necessarily agree with.

If I remember correctly, when swimming came up in our curriculum of Phys Ed. the boys swam for 2 weeks while the girls did something else and then we switched.

They could make it as such. Now I don't believe that Muslim girls exclusively should get a free pass while other girls get thrown in the tank. That separates Muslims, excludes them and does a small part in hindering incorporation and assimilation.
 
BrewerBob said:
Can people opt out for non religious regions? If so then I agree with you. But if opting out for any reason is not allowed then it is not religious discrimination. Refusing to give special treatment is not discrimination. I don't know enough about their rules to know which it is.
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Well of course their laws are different. I'm speaking more on an "ethics" level. If you opt out for religious reasons...you should be allowed to opt out. Especially if one of the requirements would violate someone's religion.


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chuckiechan said:
Are they going to be Swiss, or just a colony of Muslims in Switzerland? Most large cities now have "language and culture" ghettos caused by immigrants trying to carve out a place for the old country within the host country. That is not good for social adhesion. Everyone gets treated like normal Swiss citizen.

I say you should adopt to the culture of the place you moved to, or leave.
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It's always been interesting to me that people flee one country because of lack of freedoms, and then when they arrive in their new country they immediately want to change it so that's it's like the place they left.
 
Wiggen said:
It's always been interesting to me that people flee one country because of lack of freedoms, and then when they arrive in their new country they immediately want to change it so that's it's like the place they left.
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It is called "hijrah", and it is just as real as jihad.
 
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