France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Welcome

Cryptic · Jan 18, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Urethra Franklin said:
Each situation is to be taken on its merits. I wasn't allowed to see the inside of a Hindu temple in India because I'm not a Hindu. It's just not allowed, period. Should I have filed a discrimination claim?

No, you should not have. Churches, Mosques, Temples etc. are exempt the anti discrimination laws and such a suit would not have gone anywhere. Bars, however, are not exempt the anti discrimination laws.

Urethra Franklin said:
I don't know where you are in the world, but in most European countries you don't have to be a private club to have a door policy.

There are countless examples. Ladies nights at swimming pools? Pensioner nights? Teenage nights? People are excluded on all sorts of grounds. You have to examine the reasons; Is this purely social and harmless? Acceptable. Is this for safety? Acceptable under certain circumstances. Is this done purely to discriminate out of hatred, unacceptable.

I am in the USA. We have those exact same door policies. I have been denied entry to bars twice by bouncers because I was not dressed properly and once because I did not have a girl with me before a certain time. In the USA, these policies are legal because "guys wearing jeans and a T-shirt" are not a protected group. Likewise, "guys with no girl" are not a protected group either.

Urethra Franklin said:
It's all about intention.
Orthodox Jew goes to gay bar coz he's thirsty - fine.
Gay goes to Orthodox Jewish café for a coffee - fine.
Orthodox Jew goes to gay bar to preach homophobia and hand out leaflets - not fine.
Gay goes to Orthodox Jewish café to hand out leaflets and wave a rainbow flag - while I sympathise with the sentiment, also not fine.

Ok, now you have changed from "Gay bars, and only gay bars, should be exempt the anti discrimination laws" to.... "Gay bars reserve the right to evict trouble makers". I am in full agreement with you in that the owners of gay bars can evict troublemakers. Of course, so can Orthodox Jewish and Muslim café owners.

I can also agree that what constitutes being a "troublemaker" can be a case by case application. I would give the owner of a say, a small, owner occupied gay bar etc. a little more leeway in defining a "troublemaker" than I would the owner of a large, multi floored night club with twenty employees. This is because I think a small business is more an extension of the owner and thus he or she retains more of their right to free association.

Likewise, I would allow a little broader definition of "trouble maker" if the owner of a particular small business could show that the patrons of his establishment have been recently harassed and thus he or she is leery or "strangers".

What I cant support is a public accommodation being able to exclude people because they are simply deemed "not to belong". It does not matter who is doing the excluding or who is being excluded. Likewise, even with a little broader definition of "trouble maker", owners of gay bars or Islamic cafes cant operate under the policy of: "If I don't want you here, then you are a troublemaker".

Your Star · Jan 18, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Lafayette said:
Talking to yourself with one liners ... ?

I'm commenting on the thread. Where's the problem?

truthatallcost · Jan 18, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Urethra Franklin said:
You asked for a link and I gave you a very balanced article which points out the good and the bad. Some of us are prepared to consider all aspects of the debate and then reach our conclusions rather than just look for that stats we like. Strange that when you quoted the article you didn't quote for example:

"This shows that immigrant workers are mostly likely to be in the mid 20s and 30s. It is this age group where workers are most flexible and willing to travel to find work. As they near retirement age, immigrant workers are more likely to return to the country of their origin. This age composition has implications for net contribution to tax revenues."

Which does nothing to change the graph I showed you from your link. You have an excuse for every point I make, but in the end, they are still just excuses.

If you read my posts you would know I live in France having grown up in the UK. But you don't read - you fire back your soundbites without having actually read the post properly, which is maybe why you miss the questions asked of you (either that you just dodge questions you can't actually answer).

Well, you know what you are, that's what matters.

Now if you're going to respond please don't question dodge:

Show me the post where I ever claimed that muslim men were immune from misogyny?

I never said that you said that. Please read what I actually said.

Provide us with the sociological evidence that poverty, deprivation and inequality don't lead to higher incidences of social problems including crime.

Poverty does not make men rape children. You are using failed logic in order to excuse bad behavior.

Dismissing the Anglican church as a social club doesn't substantiate your claim that the UK has chosen Islam. Please expand on your initial claim.

I never said ' the UK has chosen Islam '. Please read what I said.

Find me the post where I have claimed I would not protect children.

You have
1. Attempted to downplay current cases of child abuse by comparing them to old cases of Catholic priests abusing children
2. Laid blame for Muslim Sex Gangs on 'poverty, deprivation, and inequality', instead of demanding personal responsibility for reprehensible crimes.
3. Used the tired excuse 'other people do it too'.

You are an apologist for these crimes. Children will continue to be abused when people would rather defend child rapists than demand safety for children.

Find me the post where I have said muslims are my chosen people and where I said I would protect them all, even the minority who do wrong.

You're choosing to defend them, even the ones who commit atrocities against children. What you say at this point is irrelevant to me, as you've demonstrated dishonesty at every opportunity.

Answer the questions you've dodged:
During the years of IRA terrorism did you judge all Catholics or all Irish people as terrorists?

I wasn't alive during most of the IRA troubles.

Name me the parts of France which are "Islamic"

Go outside, and turn left. :mrgreen:

truthatallcost · Jan 18, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Your Star said:
I'm commenting on the thread. Where's the problem?

No problem, comment away.

Lafayette · Jan 19, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

NADIR

Your Star said:
I'm commenting on the thread. Where's the problem?

One line is not a "comment".

It is ONE LINE, too often of sarcasm and sometimes of gibberish.

This is a debate-forum (I like to think, but often despair) where one can exchange upon matters that concern the sociopolitical context of our nation.

This is what pains me most about the America I left - it has turned into a nomansland where sarcasm has replaced expressive thought. Where "one upmanship" is primed in order to show "who wins" - as if winning were everything and the exchange just a snap process to that "everything".

I see the same posturing on the maniacal TV when I go back. I see it in American movies here in Europe. I see it in mostly in on the Internet and a great deal in this forum.

It's a shame really - and it's not the US I left a great long time ago. It's worse - to the point that a Donald Dork can stand in front of the American public and bullsh*t his way into the presidency.

Heaven help us. The US has sunk to its nadir ...

truthatallcost · Jan 19, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Lafayette said:
NADIR

One line is not a "comment".

It is ONE LINE, too often of sarcasm and sometimes of gibberish.

This is a debate-forum (I like to think, but often despair) where one can exchange upon matters that concern the sociopolitical context of our nation.

This is what pains me most about the America I left - it has turned into a nomansland where sarcasm has replaced expressive thought. Where "one upmanship" is primed in order to show "who wins" - as if winning were everything and the exchange just a snap process to that "everything".

I see the same posturing on the maniacal TV when I go back. I see it in American movies here in Europe. I see it in mostly in on the Internet and a great deal in this forum.

It's a shame really - and it's not the US I left a great long time ago. It's worse - to the point that a Donald Dork can stand in front of the American public and bullsh*t his way into the presidency.

Heaven help us. The US has sunk to its nadir ...

The 'Donald Trump is the Source of my Problems' forum is ------------> way. Please find it.

Urethra Franklin · Jan 19, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Cryptic said:
No, you should not have. Churches, Mosques, Temples etc. are exempt the anti discrimination laws and such a suit would not have gone anywhere. Bars, however, are not exempt the anti discrimination laws.

I am in the USA. We have those exact same door policies. I have been denied entry to bars twice by bouncers because I was not dressed properly and once because I did not have a girl with me before a certain time. In the USA, these policies are legal because "guys wearing jeans and a T-shirt" are not a protected group. Likewise, "guys with no girl" are not a protected group either.

Ok, now you have changed from "Gay bars, and only gay bars, should be exempt the anti discrimination laws" to.... "Gay bars reserve the right to evict trouble makers". I am in full agreement with you in that the owners of gay bars can evict troublemakers. Of course, so can Orthodox Jewish and Muslim café owners.

I can also agree that what constitutes being a "troublemaker" can be a case by case application. I would give the owner of a say, a small, owner occupied gay bar etc. a little more leeway in defining a "troublemaker" than I would the owner of a large, multi floored night club with twenty employees. This is because I think a small business is more an extension of the owner and thus he or she retains more of their right to free association.

Likewise, I would allow a little broader definition of "trouble maker" if the owner of a particular small business could show that the patrons of his establishment have been recently harassed and thus he or she is leery or "strangers".

What I cant support is a public accommodation being able to exclude people because they are simply deemed "not to belong". It does not matter who is doing the excluding or who is being excluded. Likewise, even with a little broader definition of "trouble maker", owners of gay bars or Islamic cafes cant operate under the policy of: "If I don't want you here, then you are a troublemaker".

Can I ask are you gay or straight?

I'm straight but I have gay friends of both sexes. I can't know what homophobia feels like so I take the word of those who experience it every day.

Scenarios outlined to me over the years by gay friends:

Small town northern England, one gay bar in town. The straight bars are not a safe place for an obviously gay couple. The gay bar gets a reputation as having good dance music and great disco nights; becomes very popular with straights. Straights basically take over. No door policy so what had been a gay bar becomes a straight venue, including the kind of straights who pull faces and make hostile comments to gays. Gays no longer feel comfortable there and stop going. The town now has NO safe space for gays to congregate.

Naval town, one gay bar. No bouncer, no door policy, gangs of off duty sailors think it's funny to go to the gay bar to chant insults, drop their pants etc. Brewery gets sick of gay bar being "trouble" so puts in new management and instructs "change." Formerly good customers (gays) refused service for no good reason. Bar becomes straight, and again, no safe sace in this provincial hick town for gays to meet.

We live in a very unfair world, which is why I could sometimes justify a door policy which at face value seem unjustifiable. I hear your arguments, I really do, but I'm afraid I won't shift from my each case on its merits stance, and don't officialise these things.

Urethra Franklin · Jan 19, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

truthatallcost said:
I never said ' the UK has chosen Islam '. Please read what I said.

In a previous post you have said Islam is not a good choice for the UK. If you are not suggesting that the UK is becoming Islamic, just what is your point?

truthatallcost said:
You're choosing to defend them, even the ones who commit atrocities against children

Dispicable lie. In no post have I defended child abusers of any faith. Your debate is on the level of coldjoint - distortion. Please find the post where I have said "I defend child abusers"

truthatallcost said:
Go outside, and turn left. :mrgreen:

I do so every day. There's a traditional French brasserie, a flower shop, an estate agent, a hairdresser, a boulangerie, a Chinese take-away, a bagle bar and a Catholic church. Your idea of "Islamic" is somewhat strange.

truthatallcost · Jan 20, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Urethra Franklin said:
In a previous post you have said Islam is not a good choice for the UK. If you are not suggesting that the UK is becoming Islamic, just what is your point?

Just what it means. It is a bad choice for Britain's future.

Dispicable lie. In no post have I defended child abusers of any faith. Your debate is on the level of coldjoint - distortion. Please find the post where I have said "I defend child abusers"

When you make excuses for them, you are defending them. You tried to say that poverty, deprivation, and discrimination were partly to blame.

I will never make excuses for why Catholic priests abused children, only they are to blame, no one else.

I do so every day. There's a traditional French brasserie, a flower shop, an estate agent, a hairdresser, a boulangerie, a Chinese take-away, a bagle bar and a Catholic church. Your idea of "Islamic" is somewhat strange.

When I turn left, there is an Indian gas station, Chinese restaurant, sandwich shop, Mexican dope spot, Mexican restaurant, another dope spot ran by an Arab man, and an Asian massage parlor. I too experiences many cultures!

Urethra Franklin · Jan 20, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

truthatallcost said:
Just what it means. It is a bad choice for Britain's future.

There are no plans for the UK to change its state religion from Anglicanism to Islam. The UK has 3 million muslims in a population of 64.1 million. Your point is?

truthatallcost said:
When you make excuses for them, you are defending them.

I have never made excuses for nor defended child abusers. Find me the post where I have. You resort to lies because your argument is flawed.

truthatallcost said:
You tried to say that poverty, deprivation, and discrimination were partly to blame.

They are, along with sexism, misogyny, failure to integrate, perversion etc. The picture is extremely complex and your black and white explanations are too simplistic by far. It's not me that says so, it's sociologists, social theorists, psychologists, anthropologists, criminologists, political theorists etc. Do some research beyond a quick Google search, if you're able.

truthatallcost said:
I will never make excuses for why Catholic priests abused children, only they are to blame, no one else.

But you don't point the finger at all priests or all Catholics, yet when a muslim does wrong, you castigate the whole community. THAT is my point as you well know. Nodoby has suggested that Catholic child abuse is somehow less bad than muslim child abuse.

truthatallcost said:
When I turn left, there is an Indian gas station, Chinese restaurant, sandwich shop, Mexican dope spot, Mexican restaurant, another dope spot ran by an Arab man, and an Asian massage parlor. I too experiences many cultures!

I couldn't give a flying f**k. My point was that I don't live in an Islamic area as you suggested.

In your opening post you claimed:

truthatallcost said:
Apparently there are entire neighborhoods in France where women must hide themselves away, just like in Saudi Arabia.

Now, name those areas, or don't bother posting.

Auvergnat · Feb 1, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Urethra Franklin said:
The UK has 3 million muslims in a population of 64.1 million.

Give them enough time: within a few decades those 3 millions will have made 5 millions children, who will then import 1 million wives and husbands, and in turn they will make 7 millions children. Those three generations will then live together, for a total of 16 millions Muslims.

Of course at this point their fecundity will still exceed Anglos' and you will have kept importing more immigrants. Meanwhile the Anglo population will have decreased.

And you know what is even worse: they are concentrated in poles of power and wealth such as London. Far before 2100 they will be the majority in Paris, London and Berlin, who will become Muslim cities. Say farewell to your culture, because once they control those places they will cleanse them from their non-Muslim heritage.

Now, name those areas, or don't bother posting.

Every block stuffed with Muslims, such as the place I grew up or a place I later worked, have plenty of young girls who wear the worse possible sportswear to look as unsexy as possible to avoid problems. And among those who wear veils (more and more every years), many do so because of social pressures against them, their parents or their brothers, through criticism, harassment, or threats.

If you want the exhaustive list you can consult the list of ZUS ("sensitive urban zones"). It should be a reasonable approximation.

Urethra Franklin · Feb 4, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Auvergnat said:
Give them enough time: within a few decades those 3 millions will have made 5 millions children, who will then import 1 million wives and husbands, and in turn they will make 7 millions children. Those three generations will then live together, for a total of 16 millions Muslims.

Of course at this point their fecundity will still exceed Anglos' and you will have kept importing more immigrants. Meanwhile the Anglo population will have decreased.

And you know what is even worse: they are concentrated in poles of power and wealth such as London. Far before 2100 they will be the majority in Paris, London and Berlin, who will become Muslim cities. Say farewell to your culture, because once they control those places they will cleanse them from their non-Muslim heritage.

See above about French muslim birth rates compared to the French in general. This isn't happening in France, I don't see it happening in the UK either.

Auvergnat said:
Every block stuffed with Muslims, such as the place I grew up or a place I later worked, have plenty of young girls who wear the worse possible sportswear to look as unsexy as possible to avoid problems. And among those who wear veils (more and more every years), many do so because of social pressures against them, their parents or their brothers, through criticism, harassment, or threats.

If you want the exhaustive list you can consult the list of ZUS ("sensitive urban zones"). It should be a reasonable approximation.

Yes, people like you have warned me about going to Bondy or Les Mureaux, and you get there and white women, not to mention Arab women are walking round unhindered wearing whatever they wish. Yes, sensitive zones exist, and yes, you see women on the streets of France who wear Islamic clothing, but for liesatallcost to state:

"Apparently there are entire neighborhoods in France where women must hide themselves away, just like in Saudi Arabia."

was plainly ridiculous, which is why he's run away from this thread, not answered my challenge in 2 weeks and just carried on posting the same claptrap in his other enlightened threads.

MrBogus · Mar 22, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

joG said:
Maybe you will like this. There are a number of such clubs in Germany a freind just told me. Mine accepts men and women equally.
Here is a gentlemen's club in Germany that seems to allow members to bring theur wives. It also mentions that it keeps contact with widows on members.

Münchener Herrenclub e.V: Informationen über den Münchener Herrenclub

Urethra Franklin said:
Women only spaces have been a reality for many years. I've been to many a lesbian bar with lesbian friends, but try getting a male friend into some of them and it's impossible. Is that wrong? Or is it simply a question of safety and preserving a space where women and in particlular gay women feel comfortable? Men have many other bars where they can go, as indeed do I as a straight woman.

Do I in principle agree with men only spaces? Well, it depends. I understand for example, why the only gay men's bar in a small provincial town may want to preserve its gay male clientèle: start letting too many of us fag hags in and it becomes less of a gay bar and more of a hen-party venue, and if the only gay bar in the region is then no longer gay, well, that's a loss of a safe space for gays to go. So I'd understand such a door policy.

Do I agree with muslim men telling women they can't go into "their" bar? In principle no, it smacks of misogyny, but as has been pointed out above, it's actually no worse than the many non-muslim golf clubs, gentleman's dining clubs, cricket clubs etc. which outlaw women. Is this any worse because it's muslim men? Has this story been exaggerated? Just how Islamic is a BAR in the first place? And some of you scream disbelief when we Europeans talk about muslims laeding secular lifestyles?

Do you really not understand taht we're talking about PUBLIC bars and not PRIVATE circles? Can you see the difference or are you kidding with us?

Manc Skipper said:
Ask those who suffered in the holocaust.

If you studied history you will know that Nazists (starting from Hitler himself) where a totally christian-hating organization. Himmler even stated that the real aim of the war was to destroy christianism.

MrBogus · Mar 22, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Urethra Franklin said:
Herein lies the double standard. There is a worldwide scandal in the Catholic church over widespread child abuse. You don't suggest that all priests, all Catholics or all Christians are child abusers. And quite right too since of course one cannot judge all priests, all Catholics or all Christians by the actions of the evil few. Yet you do it with muslims, judge them all on the actions of the few.

Maybe because in the Vangeli there is nothing written about raping children while in the Quran women place in society is well descripted, a subdued one. Raping children is not christian culture. Subjugating women is part of islam's doctrine.

Urethra Franklin · Apr 4, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

MrBogus said:
Raping children is not christian culture .

Some Catholic priests have done a very good job at it though.

MrBogus said:
Subjugating women is part of islam's doctrine.

And Christianity's. And many others.

I personally think all religions are based on lies and fairy tales and are essentially distasteful. However, I respect any individual's right to practise religion. And I refuse to scapegoat a single religion for all the world's ill. And the scapegoating and scare-mongering we see today is very reminiscent of the 1930s and is extremely troubling.

Urethra Franklin · Apr 4, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

MrBogus said:
Do you really not understand taht we're talking about PUBLIC bars and not PRIVATE circles? Can you see the difference or are you kidding with us?

Seems you missed the point. Is comparative conceptual awareness beyond you? Or are YOU kidding with us with a clue in the name Mr. Bogus???????

Infinite Chaos · Apr 4, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

MrBogus said:
~ Raping children is not christian culture.

I know it's the daily fail but...

One in 50 priests is a paedophile: Pope Francis says child abuse is 'leprosy' infecting the Catholic Church | Daily Mail Online

MrBogus said:
~ Subjugating women is part of islam's doctrine.

Many religions and political systems do this.

PeteEU · Apr 5, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

MrBogus said:
Maybe because in the Vangeli there is nothing written about raping children while in the Quran women place in society is well descripted, a subdued one. Raping children is not christian culture. Subjugating women is part of islam's doctrine.

Wow there.. not part of Christian culture? For centuries children were abused physically and sexually by the Catholic Church and society at large. As for women... you even read the freaking Bible lol? It is full of subjugating women (and Children and unbelievers). Fact is, that being a woman from the dawn of Christianity was a being a second class citizen. Women were expected to have several children before their 18th birthday, and did not expect to live into their 30s, most likely dying in childbirth. Women were sold off to men for political favours or money. All was justified in the Bible.. so please, learn some freaking history before going accusing Islam. And yes even today, women are seen as second class citizens in many Christian countries, both legally and society wise... they just happen to mostly be in the 3rd world.

MrBogus · Apr 9, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Sorry if i disappeared i had to study a lot in the last days. I'm cutting this in two parts because it's a bit too long :doh
You all evidently don't know much about history or christian history in particular (you seem to mistake Old Testament for New Testament - all the subjuganting you attribute to christians were made by jews. Early christians were actually seen quite like a terrorist organization by Rome that indeed persecuted them. I know that Protestants refer much to the O.T. but Christ, hence christianity, is the passing of that). Abusing children was common under the greeks and, partly, romans (check pederastia on google), but Christ (as in jewish religion) condemned homosexuality and adulteries (but not homoesxuals, or adulterers), and abusing children is just that.
I perfectly know what conceptual comparativity is. But, you seem to give it too much a "reality" license. We're not talking about an hypotetical reality, we're talking about our actual society. And by the way, changing subjet bringing in others' crimes or faults, under the excuse of a comparison, is just a way to avoid confrontation with the actual fact and thread topic. If you bring up another problem it doesn't mean that the earlier is less real. I mean, are you really trying to justifiy people who ban women from bars just because they are women? We're not here to talk about pedophilia in the Church (that surely there is, and no one wants to deny that), if you want to talk about that then make a thread were we can discuss that topic. I thought that we were here to discuss about relationships between islam, women and european/"western" values and societies.
I'll also would have many things to say about the role that christianity had in the Late antiquity to bring women to active roles in society (early Islam did it too), whilst before they where little more than wombs. I would like to say more but it is difficult in a short space so a forward you to P. Brown's "The cult of the Saints".
And again, i don't like to repeat myself, but tell me a single line in the Gospels where there is written that is ok to screw children. Child molestation in the Church is a deviancy. While early Islam probably really improved life standards of women, it stopped long ago and nowadays in many muslim country gender inequality is stated by law (often of coranic inspiration).
I'm not a christian (at least in faith, culturally in europe we are all christians my friends, regardless if we believe or not), but studying history i made some "conceptual comparation" between the three main abrahmitic religions. These are the core values: Jews believe that they made a bilateral and exclusive pact with God that elected theyr people over the others. Jesus's message was basically one of universal love for everybody (it's pretty interesting btw that the two most revolutionary thinkers of "western" society - imo Christ and Marx - where both jews). Mohammed was a tribal leader that brutally spread his religion on the tip of the sword. God may be dead for us europeans, but it is well alive for the muslims.
I never suggested that muslims should convert, or be deported or something like that. You are free to practice anything until you do not harm others. I'm not even saying that muslim are bad persons per se, i know lot of them (many muslims live in my neighborhood), but probably exactly because that i know that many of them are bigot scum. Islam is not a solid "monolith", it has many sects and currents. But i would never accept that some of them would prevent women (or any other targeted category) to live the public space exactly as everybody. It's ridiculous. It becomes dangerous when we let these practices go in silence, even justyfing them. In the last 2-3 weeks in Italy there have been at least two cases of muslim girls taken from theyr parents by social services because they were harassed by theyr relatives because they weren't sticking to islam.

(continues)

MrBogus · Apr 9, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

One got her head shaved because she took off her hijab when not at home
Rasata a zero per il velo, due indagini Ma la sorella: «È lei che l’ha chiesto, l’Islam qui non c’entra» - Corriere.it

Another was whipped because she was to much "westernized"
Ragazza frustata, famiglia vuole essere interrogata - Lombardia - ANSA.it

28 years old beaten by 51 yo husband for not wearing burqa (note the the guy earlier made a son with her curent wife's mother)
Napoli, non vuole indossare il burqa: il marito la prende a calci e pugni

Just the other day in Germany a muslim family tried to get a teacher fired because he was gay (i mean, why don't they just change school instead of firing the teacher?):
https://www.rt.com/news/382726-muslim-parents-berlin-preschool/
Muslimische Eltern gegen homosexuellen Erzieher : Senat: "Wir dulden keine Diskriminierung" - Berlin - Tagesspiegel

Of the six nations that have death penalty for homosexuality, only Nigeria is a non islamic country (even if muslim are up to 50% of the population), not to speak of the various non governative islamic organiations that execute gays.

There is a problem with women (i would say with sexuality in general) in islam - that is the main cultural matrix for the people in the video. You can't deny that. We're adressing them (muslims) because right here, right now, not in some hypotetical reality, they are the group (or better minor grups of it) that are discussing one of the basic values on wich our society is based,freedom and equality for everyone unregarding gender or sexual orientation. The problem with Islam (more generally) is that it is not only a faith system but also a political ideology when it provides a juridic system and a set of norms (in Quran and Sunna) that remember, come from God, not the people. In the islamic world there has never been a real process of seculariztion throughout history. I would love to see a reformation inside Islam that could make it more pluralistic and open, as it surely has been before. But unfortunately the signs are not good.
https://www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-president-al-sisi-al-azhar-we-must-revolutionize-our-religion
(funny that this invitation to reform comes from a ruthless dictator and not from islamic scholars)

https://www.memri.org/reports/al-ahram-columnist-despite-al-sisis-call-revolution-religious-discourse-al-azhar-scholars-0

https://www.memri.org/tv/kuwaiti-liberal-activist-nasser-dashti-clashes-islamist-journalist-saeed-tawfiki-over-freedom

In someone else's opinionor it needs a restoration - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe - http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/islam-needs-restoration-not-reformation-286652371 (Interesting point of view)
https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/sami-zubaida/islamic-reformation

I don't care if it's religious or cultural, i just don't like discrimination. What is shown in the video is simply unacepptable in Europe, dot.

Chagos · Apr 9, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

tl;dr

lurchadams · Apr 9, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

truthatallcost said:
Apparently there are entire neighborhoods in France where women must hide themselves away, just like in Saudi Arabia. I feel like women's rights end whenever they run up against old world cultures who refuse to accept modern day European social norms.

Thoughts?
Comments?

This isn't the only culture where separation of women from men exists.

Don't get me started on Islam's discrimination against women..

In orthodox Judaism, women are separated from men in Temple because they're considered a distraction.

In Catholicism, women aren't allowed to be in the clergy.

On Fox News, women have to be into old guys.

(I made that last one up - couldn't resist, sorry!)

MrBogus · Apr 10, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

lurchadams said:
This isn't the only culture where separation of women from men exists.

Don't get me started on Islam's discrimination against women..

In orthodox Judaism, women are separated from men in Temple because they're considered a distraction.

In Catholicism, women aren't allowed to be in the clergy.

You are right but chlerical jerarchy (again) is not civil society (btw Pope Francis is trying to open clergy to women, with scarce results i'm afraid). In our society on a broader therm equality for women is well stated, maybe not fully reached yet (far from to say that our society is perfect), but i think we can all agree that we made consistent steps forward. I don't know if you ever met some israelian girl but they are some of the most independent women i've ever met. Nonetheless i criticize gender separation in places of worhip exactly as i do when it occurs in public places. It was just because of the separation of men and women during prayer that jews made in Jerusalem against the will of the british security measures that set off religious riots in Palestine in the first place (check "Wailing wall disturbances of 1929").
And again, i don't understand in wich way other groups flaws should justifiy certain behaviors. Here is an itneresting article (a little bit too much biased against Iran coming from a Saudi-American but still it has some interesting insights on what's happening in the islamic world) about islam and political islam.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10173/middle-east-revolution-evolution

Immigrants from other cultures are welcome but we cannot just accept anything for the sake of relativism. I think that we should reassert our core values (even to ourselves) against cultural practices that go in the opposite directions (FGM, kid brides, beating or segregation of women etc) at least in the physical and political spaces that come under the rule of the State. Beating a woman in the west is a felony, in many muslim countries it's still widely accepted socially. We don't have to brainwash or physically arm muslims but educate them to our values and key concepts that rule our societies. In Italy we are trying to do that for example with teaching Italian Constitution to imams who want to practice.
La Costituzione spiegata agli imam, il primo corso a Ravenna - Repubblica.it
One of the main toxic ideas running around today imo is the assumption that universal human rights are widely accepted while in reality they are way more "western" than "universal" (see the debates behind the 1994 UN's Declaration of Human Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Conference_on_Human_Rights#Conference <<One fault line at the conference was Western nations who proclaimed a universal meaning to human rights versus nations who said that human rights needed to be interpreted differently in non-Western cultures and that attempts to impose a universal definition amounted to interference in their internal affairs.[8][11] The latter group was led by China, Syria and Iran, and also included a number of Asian nations such as Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Vietnam.[11] On the opening day of the conference, U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher spoke out strongly against this notion, saying "We cannot let cultural relativism become the last refuge of repression."[11]>>
or Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

On Fox News, women have to be into old guys.

(I made that last one up - couldn't resist, sorry!)

:lamo

longview · Apr 10, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Those of us who study History, should not forget that Islam is only about where the Christian Church
was in the 1400's.
If Islam is to learn to play nice with other societies, it must lose it's political ideologies!

matchlight · Apr 10, 2017

Re: France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Wel

Has anyone else noticed that people who habitually rush to make excuses for intolerant, backward, or even violent conduct by Muslims almost always have similar political leanings, and that they almost always resent the United States and Christianity?

France- 'This isn't Paris. It's only men here'-no-go Zones where Women aren't Welcome

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