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Why does the EU treat Venezuelans worse than Muslims migrants?

SDET

SDET

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1) What does this have to do with the EU? Immigration policy is a national issue.
2) Spain has agreements with her former colonies and Brazil on who and how people from the region can get into Spain and stay here.
3) Once "2" conditions are not met, then said persons are illegal and sent home.

In other words, standard practice.

Now you so called "muslim migrants" is quite different.

1) Spain does not have agreements with countries where these migrants come from. Mostly because they are in civil wars or that Spain does not have any real pull with the regimes in question.
2) Spain does have an agreement with Morocco to take back migrants caught going over their collective border, and that happens a lot.

Now is Spain not being hard enough on existing migrants in Spain.. frankly yes they are not. Lots of street sellers from African countries, that in my opinion have no business being here. But that is something for the Spanish government to do something about, and has absolutely nothing to do with the EU.
 
What PeteEU said with one big nuance: the obligation for a country to take back its emigrants is the matter of an international treaty (the Geneva convention on refugees).

In other words, Venezuela is a civilized country that plays by the rules while Muslim countries give us a finger.
 
Auvergnat said:
What PeteEU said with one big nuance: the obligation for a country to take back its emigrants is the matter of an international treaty (the Geneva convention on refugees).

In other words, Venezuela is a civilized country that plays by the rules while Muslim countries give us a finger.
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Spend two weeks in Venezuela and if you're still alive, get back to me on whether it's a civilized country. If you have the nerve to pay for everything in cash and do your exchange in a border town, you will likely spend less than US $200 in the country during those two weeks. One would hope there's some humanitarian consideration here.
 
SDET said:
Spend two weeks in Venezuela and if you're still alive, get back to me on whether it's a civilized country. If you have the nerve to pay for everything in cash and do your exchange in a border town, you will likely spend less than US $200 in the country during those two weeks. One would hope there's some humanitarian consideration here.
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All very well (better said "bad") but the fact remains that Venezuela co-operates in taking its people back.

Where migrants (as opposed to refugees) from, for instance, N.Africa are concerned, European nations tend to meet with a lot of stone-walling.

And have as yet not come to the conclusion that tipping the whole lot back into the Mediterranean is a viable option.
 
Auvergnat said:
What PeteEU said with one big nuance: the obligation for a country to take back its emigrants is the matter of an international treaty (the Geneva convention on refugees).

In other words, Venezuela is a civilized country that plays by the rules while Muslim countries give us a finger.
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For the love of god.. what on earth does Venezuela have to do with the Geneva convention on refugees? These are migrant workers, not refugees..
 
PeteEU said:
For the love of god.. what on earth does Venezuela have to do with the Geneva convention on refugees? These are migrant workers, not refugees..
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Sorry, I made a confusion about historical events: this convention was planned to tackle statelessness but it didn't make it in the latest version. It was solved a few years later by a dedicated UN convention. See this for those historical events.

That being said my comment still applies: there are mainstream international treaties that force countries to take back their nationals, but many Muslim countries do not honor it.
 
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Auvergnat said:
Sorry, I made a confusion about historical events: this convention was planned to tackle statelessness but it didn't make it in the latest version. It was solved a few years later by a dedicated UN convention. See this for those historical events.

That being said my comment still applies: there are mainstream international treaties that force countries to take back their nationals, but many Muslim countries do not honor it.
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Horse****. There are no mainstream international treaties that force countries to do anything. There are treaties that set up the guidelines on how to send back people, but it is up to bi-lateral agreements between countries to make that happen. And it is the last part that is problematic when it comes to Africa, Middle East and parts of Asia. To have such a deal, you need a government on both sides to make it work and in these cases that is not so. And even if it there is a government to deal with, there has to be some sort of incentive to take back their own criminal elements.
 
PeteEU said:
Horse****. There are no mainstream international treaties that force countries to do anything. There are treaties that set up the guidelines on how to send back people, but it is up to bi-lateral agreements between countries to make that happen. And it is the last part that is problematic when it comes to Africa, Middle East and parts of Asia. To have such a deal, you need a government on both sides to make it work and in these cases that is not so. And even if it there is a government to deal with, there has to be some sort of incentive to take back their own criminal elements.
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Any country that agrees on a treaty is then bound by this treaty until it withdraws. Just like you are bound by a contract you signed but free to revoke it anytime, unless specified otherwise.

Now look at the article 13.2 of the U.N. version of Human Rights, which binds every member of the U.N.: "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."

However there are practical considerations that take part in the deportation of immigrants, such as the identification of the travelers, and this is where bilateral agreements are necessary because many immigrants burn their fingerprint and many countries do not have proper records. That and the fact that many poor countries flatly ignore the international treaties they signed.
 
Auvergnat said:
Any country that agrees on a treaty is then bound by this treaty until it withdraws. Just like you are bound by a contract you signed but free to revoke it anytime, unless specified otherwise.

Now look at the article 13.2 of the U.N. version of Human Rights, which binds every member of the U.N.: "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."
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Yes and every country on the planet breaks article 13.2. There is no international treaty that forces countries to accept their own citizens back. It is billateral.

However there are practical considerations that take part in the deportation of immigrants, such as the identification of the travelers, and this is where bilateral agreements are necessary because many immigrants burn their fingerprint and many countries do not have proper records. That and the fact that many poor countries flatly ignore the international treaties they signed.
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God it is like talking to a wall. This is about people from Venezuela. In most cases they came here legally and due to circumstances, their legal status changed.. and hence they are deported. That is normal and standard practice in every country!
 
PeteEU said:
Yes and every country on the planet breaks article 13.2.
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Source?

There is no international treaty that forces countries to accept their own citizens back.
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I just proved there is. You, on the other hand, keep hammering your belief.

Once again you are confusing the obligation to take back your nationals (imposed by international treaties) with the practical modalities regarding the entrance of a plane carrying foreign policemen escorting a man they say is one of your nationals (ruled by bilateral treaties).

God it is like talking to a wall.
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Indeed.
 
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SDET said:
As this news article says, Venezuelans are treated like pariahs. An average of 12 Venezuelans are deported on every flight that comes into Spain from Caracas.



https://dolartoday.com/tratados-com...enezolanos-antes-de-ser-deportados-de-espana/
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Getting asylum in many EU countries is a pretty awful process regardless of where you come from. Greece has waiting lists of several years before asylum seekers are even allowed to work. Just down the road from where I live they have turned a prison that was deemed unfit for prisioners into a detention center for failed asylum seekers. And bear in mind of course that alot of Muslims iving and working in Europe came legally, or are the chilldren, grandchilldren or great grandchilldren of those that did.

Rules specifying the a minimum amount of money a Venuzuelan has on them are no different for specifications and American would have to follow getting into the UK. As long as Venuzuelans seeking asylum are given an opportunity to make their casa as per the refugee convention I don´t see a problem.
 
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PeteEU said:
Now is Spain not being hard enough on existing migrants in Spain.. frankly yes they are not. Lots of street sellers from African countries, that in my opinion have no business being here. But that is something for the Spanish government to do something about, and has absolutely nothing to do with the EU.
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And lots of them have no means to work legally, and would be at risk in their home countries. And even if they are economic migrants then why is this ok when White people do it? Given Spain´s aging population its a mystery to me why they would want to deport any young person.
 
Red_Dave said:
And lots of them have no means to work legally, and would be at risk in their home countries. Given Spain´s demographic issues its a mystery why they would want to deport any young person.
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Because they are here illegally and cant feed themselves?

Now in the case of Venezuela... again these people most likely came here legally to work. That work has now dried up and they have no legal reason to stay in country. So unless they can support themselves with at least 6k Euros in a bank account.. then bye!

And "at risk in their home countries".. that excuse is getting stale. I understand it in places like Syria and Iraq.. but most of Africa is pretty safe and the middle east. Just because there are rebels or criminal gangs attacking the population, does not mean that Europe or the west in general should open up our borders to people fleeing that. It is time that these places face up to the facts and start dealing with their problems, instead of using Europe as an excuse. We dont need the uneducated tired masses of the world... so stay away!
 
Red_Dave said:
And lots of them have no means to work legally, and would be at risk in their home countries. And even if they are economic migrants then why is this ok when White people do it? Given Spain´s aging population its a mystery to me why they would want to deport any young person.
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You might want to consider, quite apart from the illegality of migration that is not caused by dictatorial, oppressive regimes at home and would thus make the migrants refugees by both international and EU law, the high unemployment rate in Spain and specifically its heights among young people (still over 40pct for those).

As for "other whites", that doesn't even apply for EU citizens that can't show sufficient means of self support.

Showing to have a job in Spain would of course suffice for that criterium, but to EU citizens only. The latter being a necessity that, last I looked, Venezolanos do not fulfil.
 
Chagos said:
You might want to consider, quite apart from the illegality of migration that is not caused by dictatorial, oppressive regimes at home and would thus make the migrants refugees by both international and EU law, the high unemployment rate in Spain and specifically its heights among young people (still over 40pct for those)..
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Well two of the highest sources of illegal immigration to Europe are Libya and Eriteria. Do you really think that no one has legitimate reasons to flee these countries? Or Zimbabwe for example?

As a side note I wouldn´t trust the offical stats on unemplyment given the high number of people working cash in hand, even so Spain is facing a situation were in a few decades time the majority of population could be above working age. Then unemployment will be the least of its concerns. Not to mention that Spain actually suffers severe labour shortages in some key sectors, and in the cases of Africa, the ME and Latin America its primarily skilled professions that can afford to up sticks and leave.
 
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PeteEU said:
Because they are here illegally and cant feed themselves?

Now in the case of Venezuela... again these people most likely came here legally to work. That work has now dried up and they have no legal reason to stay in country. So unless they can support themselves with at least 6k Euros in a bank account.. then bye!

And "at risk in their home countries".. that excuse is getting stale. I understand it in places like Syria and Iraq.. but most of Africa is pretty safe and the middle east. Just because there are rebels or criminal gangs attacking the population, does not mean that Europe or the west in general should open up our borders to people fleeing that. It is time that these places face up to the facts and start dealing with their problems, instead of using Europe as an excuse. We dont need the uneducated tired masses of the world... so stay away!
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Then again would your average Syrian or Venezuelan be any more skilled then your average Bulgarian or Romanian? As I said to Chagos its more likely to be skilled professionals that can pay a smuggler, book a plane ticket etc.
 
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Red_Dave said:
Then again would your average Syrian or Venezuelan be any more skilled then your average Bulgarian or Romanian? As I said to Chagos its more likely to be skilled professionals that can pay a smuggler, book a plane ticket etc.
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Well yes and no. Difference is of course, the Bulgarian and Romanian are EU citizens. Now had they not been, then they would be in the same boat as the Venezuelan.

As for the Syrian, he is a refugee and is in the EU under different condition than the Venezuelan.
 
PeteEU said:
Well yes and no. Difference is of course, the Bulgarian and Romanian are EU citizens. Now had they not been, then they would be in the same boat as the Venezuelan.

As for the Syrian, he is a refugee and is in the EU under different condition than the Venezuelan.
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But on a purely moral level why is economic migration a virtue for those from Eastern Europe and the unforgivable sin for those from elsewhere?

As regards your second point wouldn´t a Venuzuelan who had a specific reason to be afraid of his or her government be worse off than a random Syrian?
 
Red_Dave said:
But on a purely moral level why is economic migration a virtue for those from Eastern Europe and the unforgivable sin for those from elsewhere?
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Oh we talking moral level.. sorry pass, that part has no part in political discussion these days.

As regards your second point wouldn´t a Venuzuelan who had a specific reason to be afraid of his or her government be worse off than a random Syrian?
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Because Venezuela is not in a civil war... at least not yet.
 
Red_Dave said:
Well two of the highest sources of illegal immigration to Europe are Libya and Eriteria. Do you really think that no one has legitimate reasons to flee these countries? Or Zimbabwe for example?
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Well, FWIW I fully share into the scepticism of what is "constructed" as a safe state. Quite apart from there being no common guidelines for the EU (they're working on it but the result, if it ever comes to pass, will most likely be as partisan to own interests as existing rules of Germany, Austria and Switzerland (not EU, I know) already have in common), the absence of war and/or persecution by the political elite at home cannot just quite go along the principle of "elected and therefore not repressive".

No matter, Venezuela doesn't currently fall into any of those categories under debate even where, considering the rise in peril from equally rising violent crime, makes the rejection at least arguable.
As a side note I wouldn´t trust the offical stats on unemplyment given the high number of people working cash in hand,
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ALL unemployment statistics are cooked, mostly though to give a better figure. In the area where I live, those unemployed can however barely make ends meet. If they do manage (even by working on the sly), they've lost unemployment benefits anyway (limited time of being eligible for those having expired) and are not in the statistics any more anyway. Checks on "receivers" are quite strict in my neck of the woods.

even so Spain is facing a situation were in a few decades time the majority of population could be above working age. Then unemployment will be the least of its concerns.
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Yeah, but my point is now.
Not to mention that Spain actually suffers severe labour shortages in some key sectors,
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like?
and in the cases of Africa, the ME and Latin America its primarily skilled professions that can afford to up sticks and leave.
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But in the case that is subject here (Venezuela), it's not primarily those that are leaving for Spain.
 
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