• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

MPs vote against protecting the EU right to live and work in the UK

P

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
38,984
Reaction score
14,324
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
PeteEU said:
MPs vote against protecting the EU right to live and work in the UK | The Independent



Not a good signal before negotiations...
Click to expand...

I may not fully understand the principles behind the decision, but seems to me that in the economic environment that the UK lives this would be more a detriment to UK citizens than it would be to other EU member citizens since it is likely that the EU will reciprocate with the reverse as it relates to UK citizens.

The UK is a sovereign entity and they should determine who can and when as it relates to foreign citizens living and working within its borders - interestingly, I'd suggest that part of the reason that the citizens of the UK voted against remaining in the EU was because they gave up control of who can and when foreign citizens can enter and live and work within its borders. Many citizens of European countries are equally concerned.

The United States, Canada and Mexico have strong ties and strong free trade agreements yet we each retain our own sovereignty in all respects. In fact, because too many Mexican citizens were landing in Canada, on vacation, and then claiming refugee status, the Canadian government made it mandatory for Mexican travelers to secure a Visa prior to entering Canada - such a requirement is not necessary for US citizens. Our new government is easing that requirement, but it still remains the decision of Canadians by Canadians and not by some bureaucracy offshore.

The world is a different place the past couple of decades and people, rightly in my view, are much more concerned about who can enter within our borders and why.
 
PeteEU said:
MPs vote against protecting the EU right to live and work in the UK | The Independent



Not a good signal before negotiations...
Click to expand...

What is so evil about that? As an American I had no problems living and working in London or in any other of the countries in Europe I have lived in. I doubt they will make it more difficult for Europeans than for Americans, unless the EU people handle the exit as badly as their constitution, asylum and immigrants or as they did the Euro. As a matter of fact, as it is now constructed free movement of labor is being watered down by countries around the continent, because the EU is poorly constituted. If the EU were better structured, the Uk would not worry so much about poor Europeans flooding their labor market and social systems. Germany btw is just now cutting EU citizens off from their social systems.
The EU, were it at all rational, would have taken the Brexit referendum as a warning and corrected the consequences of 30 years of dishonesty and disregard of the populations. But like with the introduction of the Euro they don't see or are criminally ignoring the writing on the wall.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I may not fully understand the principles behind the decision, but seems to me that in the economic environment that the UK lives this would be more a detriment to UK citizens than it would be to other EU member citizens since it is likely that the EU will reciprocate with the reverse as it relates to UK citizens.
Click to expand...

Yes it seems you dont understand. For months now, there has been a demand by companies and pro-EU politicians to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK at the moment. This vote, and other comments from the sitting government has caused a lot of worry and uncertainty among companies and EU citizens living in the UK.

The UK is a sovereign entity and they should determine who can and when as it relates to foreign citizens living and working within its borders - interestingly, I'd suggest that part of the reason that the citizens of the UK voted against remaining in the EU was because they gave up control of who can and when foreign citizens can enter and live and work within its borders.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. They "gave up" blocking entry for EU citizens from working and living within the rules of the EU.. they did not give up that right for non EU citizens...

Many citizens of European countries are equally concerned.
Click to expand...

Yes and they are just as wrong.. xenophobic and maybe even racists.

The United States, Canada and Mexico have strong ties and strong free trade agreements yet we each retain our own sovereignty in all respects. In fact, because too many Mexican citizens were landing in Canada, on vacation, and then claiming refugee status, the Canadian government made it mandatory for Mexican travelers to secure a Visa prior to entering Canada - such a requirement is not necessary for US citizens. Our new government is easing that requirement, but it still remains the decision of Canadians by Canadians and not by some bureaucracy offshore.

The world is a different place the past couple of decades and people, rightly in my view, are much more concerned about who can enter within our borders and why.x
Click to expand...

Cant be compared. A valid comparison would be California leaving the union and saying any non Californian is not guaranteed to stay.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I may not fully understand the principles behind the decision, but seems to me that in the economic environment that the UK lives this would be more a detriment to UK citizens than it would be to other EU member citizens since it is likely that the EU will reciprocate with the reverse as it relates to UK citizens.

The UK is a sovereign entity and they should determine who can and when as it relates to foreign citizens living and working within its borders - interestingly, I'd suggest that part of the reason that the citizens of the UK voted against remaining in the EU was because they gave up control of who can and when foreign citizens can enter and live and work within its borders. Many citizens of European countries are equally concerned.

The United States, Canada and Mexico have strong ties and strong free trade agreements yet we each retain our own sovereignty in all respects. In fact, because too many Mexican citizens were landing in Canada, on vacation, and then claiming refugee status, the Canadian government made it mandatory for Mexican travelers to secure a Visa prior to entering Canada - such a requirement is not necessary for US citizens. Our new government is easing that requirement, but it still remains the decision of Canadians by Canadians and not by some bureaucracy offshore.

The world is a different place the past couple of decades and people, rightly in my view, are much more concerned about who can enter within our borders and why.
Click to expand...

It was the one main reason the population voted for Brexit. So the non binding decision seems the right step.

In any event, Brexit should be handled in a way that nobody would notice. But the EU cannot allow that to happen. The centripetal forces have grown to a point that demonstrating that that a country could painlessly get out, the EU could easily collapse. And with Putin firing that process with so much more competence, the could would probably become a would.
 
joG said:
What is so evil about that? As an American I had no problems living and working in London or in any other of the countries in Europe I have lived in. I doubt they will make it more difficult for Europeans than for Americans, unless the EU people handle the exit as badly as their constitution, asylum and immigrants or as they did the Euro.
Click to expand...

Ahh the usual anti-EU bull****. The ones handling it badly is the UK and the May government.. Look at the pound.. look at the jobs that are already flowing out of the country. This will only increase the amount of jobs going out of the country.. that is a fact. Nissan is already floating the idea of moving its car production to the EU... and THAT is going to hurt.

As a matter of fact, as it is now constructed free movement of labor is being watered down by countries around the continent, because the EU is poorly constituted.
Click to expand...

No it is not.. stop spreading bull**** like this. All they are doing, is finally implementing the rules that were already in place.

If the EU were better structured, the Uk would not worry so much about poor Europeans flooding their labor market and social systems.
Click to expand...

If the UK were constructed better, the poor Welsh and Scots would not be flooding to London for jobs..... .. yea the "poor Europeans" are not only not flooding the labor market, but they are taking up the work that no Brits want to do. Oh and they are basically financing the freaking social system in the UK, since they pay way more into the system than they take out. How about those facts? You not heard them, or you just willfully ignoring it?

Germany btw is just now cutting EU citizens off from their social systems.
Click to expand...

Yes and? That is WITH IN THE ****ING RULES ! For the love of god... your knowledge of the EU is so limited that it is pathetic.

The EU, were it at all rational, would have taken the Brexit referendum as a warning and corrected the consequences of 30 years of dishonesty and disregard of the populations. But like with the introduction of the Euro they don't see or are criminally ignoring the writing on the wall.
Click to expand...

Bla bla bla bla, more undocumented anti-European bull****. The only one dishonest here is you.
 
PeteEU said:
Ahh the usual anti-EU bull****. The ones handling it badly is the UK and the May government.. Look at the pound.. look at the jobs that are already flowing out of the country. This will only increase the amount of jobs going out of the country.. that is a fact. Nissan is already floating the idea of moving its car production to the EU... and THAT is going to hurt.



No it is not.. stop spreading bull**** like this. All they are doing, is finally implementing the rules that were already in place.



If the UK were constructed better, the poor Welsh and Scots would not be flooding to London for jobs..... .. yea the "poor Europeans" are not only not flooding the labor market, but they are taking up the work that no Brits want to do. Oh and they are basically financing the freaking social system in the UK, since they pay way more into the system than they take out. How about those facts? You not heard them, or you just willfully ignoring it?



Yes and? That is WITH IN THE ****ING RULES ! For the love of god... your knowledge of the EU is so limited that it is pathetic.



Bla bla bla bla, more undocumented anti-European bull****. The only one dishonest here is you.
Click to expand...

You sound like Martin Schulz or Juncker, whom the EU pays to speak like that. That at least is understandable in that kind of people.

;)
 
PeteEU said:
Yes it seems you dont understand. For months now, there has been a demand by companies and pro-EU politicians to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK at the moment. This vote, and other comments from the sitting government has caused a lot of worry and uncertainty among companies and EU citizens living in the UK.



Yes and no. They "gave up" blocking entry for EU citizens from working and living within the rules of the EU.. they did not give up that right for non EU citizens...



Yes and they are just as wrong.. xenophobic and maybe even racists.



Cant be compared. A valid comparison would be California leaving the union and saying any non Californian is not guaranteed to stay.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your point of view, but claiming that corporate and political interests of pro-EU parties should be of more concern than the citizens of the UK who in large part voted against that very same EU seems to be a little elitist and condescending.

But hey, Europeans and arrogance have been joint partners for as long as I've been alive and probably long before that and long after I've gone.
 
Comparing 1) treatment of US citizens (or Canadians or whoever) that want to live in EU countries with 2) the concept of free movement of EU citizens within the EU zone, is the usual oranges to apples BS. Usual in that it's no surprise in coming from where it does.

For one thing any non-EU citizen need apply for a resident permit if s/he stays longer than 3 months (irrespective of possibly needing an entry Visa, depending on country of origin). Such residence permit requires proof of adequate means of support, proof of adequate health insurance, certificate of health, job contracts or offers of employment etc. and that's just the beginning of bureaucracy.

Requirements may vary from one EU state to another but the variations are small, the minimum being the same everywhere.

By comparing that to the relatively hassle free movement that is extended to EU citizens within the zone, the equation constitutes sheer nonsense.

The next case of BS is to state that Germany is cutting EU citizens off from its social benefits system. Where the respective bill still has to pass (next week, probably), the envisaged changes to what has ruled so far is that in future those EU citizens that do not have a job will be subjected to a waiting time of 5 years before they can go on the dole. Those that find work obviously won't be affected at all and those that are engaging in "social benefits tourism" are thus encouraged to either crap or get off the pot.

This has nothing to do with free movement, it has to do with the absence of free meals.

As to the constant blather of anyone correcting this sort of mindless "disinformation" to be sounding like Schulz or Juncker, the poster concerned might acquaint him- or herself with the Visegrád group (Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia) that has clearly stated its intention of torpedoing any Brexit agreement that DOES NOT include free movement of both British and EU citizens to and from UK and EU. Once again, FREE movement, nothing to do with social benefits.

Visegrád is neither in Belgium nor in France (nor Luxembourg for that matter) and neither Juncker nor Schulz speak for any of its members.

As we have just seen, the abdication of national sovereignty that supposedly all EU member states have engaged in to the benefit of Brussels, already falls flat when it comes to a regional parliament in Belgium.
 
Last edited:
PeteEU said:
Cant be compared. A valid comparison would be California leaving the union and saying any non Californian is not guaranteed to stay.
Click to expand...

No it's not. Anothe Pete fail. It might be best if you spend some time reading about American history. Something important happened in American between 1860-1864.
 
reinoe said:
No it's not. Anothe Pete fail. It might be best if you spend some time reading about American history. Something important happened in American between 1860-1864.
Click to expand...

What on earth does that have to do with the comparison? Gezz...
 
PeteEU said:
Yes it seems you dont understand. For months now, there has been a demand by companies and pro-EU politicians to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK at the moment. This vote, and other comments from the sitting government has caused a lot of worry and uncertainty among companies and EU citizens living in the UK.



Yes and no. They "gave up" blocking entry for EU citizens from working and living within the rules of the EU.. they did not give up that right for non EU citizens...



Yes and they are just as wrong.. xenophobic and maybe even racists.



Cant be compared. A valid comparison would be California leaving the union and saying any non Californian is not guaranteed to stay.
Click to expand...

Only two short things.

Germany is in the process of cutting EU citizens access to social assistance for the first 5 years of employment. That means not only that the "free movement" is restricted to those who already hold a job or can pay their way without one. That is not dissimilar but more menacing to the way many Americans or Chinese have worked in the UK in the past. It puts enormous pressure on the worker from Romania to do anything possible to keep her job, as there would be no safety net for her should she not perform as desired.

If I were discussing Brexit with a Canadian, I think I would have chosen Quebec as an example and not CA. ;)
 
joG said:
Only two short things.

Germany is in the process of cutting EU citizens access to social assistance for the first 5 years of employment.
Click to expand...

No they are not. They want to limit some social assistance the first 5 years of employment.. not all. They are just doing what other countries have done or want to do.
 
PeteEU said:
No they are not. They want to limit some social assistance the first 5 years of employment.. not all. They are just doing what other countries have done or want to do.
Click to expand...
It's already been pointed out (addressed at the general public, not at the poster in direct response since I no longer do that) in #10, 5th paragraph.

Then again, some think that repeating a falsehood often enough will make it seem true. :roll:

What is being conflated (and subsequently confused) here are unemployment benefits (including all assistance linked to them) and dole.

As such claims to unemployment benefits were already not recognized long before this current law. Meaning that any EU citizen entering the country on the premise of looking for work did not make him/her/them eligible anyway on that premise alone (unless they had a job or job offer already).

What presided up til now was that "dole" could be applied for by EU citizens after 6 months of being in the host country.

No idea what this brouhaha is about anyway. As we both know Spain wouldn't have let either of us stay if we hadn't shown proof of holding health insurance and, more importantly, adequate means of self-support by whichever measure (job or Swiss bank account:mrgreen:).
 
Chagos said:
It's already been pointed out (addressed at the general public, not at the poster in direct response since I no longer do that) in #10, 5th paragraph.

Then again, some think that repeating a falsehood often enough will make it seem true. :roll:

What is being conflated (and subsequently confused) here are unemployment benefits (including all assistance linked to them) and dole.

As such claims to unemployment benefits were already not recognized long before this current law. Meaning that any EU citizen entering the country on the premise of looking for work did not make him/her/them eligible anyway on that premise alone (unless they had a job or job offer already).

What presided up til now was that "dole" could be applied for by EU citizens after 6 months of being in the host country.

No idea what this brouhaha is about anyway. As we both know Spain wouldn't have let either of us stay if we hadn't shown proof of holding health insurance and, more importantly, adequate means of self-support by whichever measure (job or Swiss bank account:mrgreen:).
Click to expand...

Exactly, the rules are there, but countries dont use them. The UK could easily limit EU immigration but refused to do so.. why is that? Why is that Belgium and others can kick out EU citizens who are a "burden on society" but the UK cant? You cant just travel to another country and demand benefits.. just does not work like that and never has unless the host country has allowed it. What you cant do, is discriminate against EU citizens who have or are contributing to the system.
 
joG said:
Only two short things.

Germany is in the process of cutting EU citizens access to social assistance for the first 5 years of employment. That means not only that the "free movement" is restricted to those who already hold a job or can pay their way without one. That is not dissimilar but more menacing to the way many Americans or Chinese have worked in the UK in the past. It puts enormous pressure on the worker from Romania to do anything possible to keep her job, as there would be no safety net for her should she not perform as desired.

If I were discussing Brexit with a Canadian, I think I would have chosen Quebec as an example and not CA. ;)
Click to expand...

Quebec has Francophone regultions to dissuade Anglo's.
 
PeteEU said:
No they are not. They want to limit some social assistance the first 5 years of employment.. not all. They are just doing what other countries have done or want to do.
Click to expand...

You seem not to understand the meaning of free movement. If a Romanian goes to Germany to find work, she will get no social support. If she loses her job before the 5 years period is over the same. That makes the move possible for people like you, but not for the lower classes. So there is no free movement of labor de facto. But nobody must admit it. It is effectively very similar to the way it would be to go to the UK. And it is a nasty lie to maintain the difference is anything but quantitative; just a slightly different point on a continuum, if that.
 
joG said:
You seem not to understand the meaning of free movement. If a Romanian goes to Germany to find work, she will get no social support. If she loses her job before the 5 years period is over the same. That makes the move possible for people like you, but not for the lower classes. So there is no free movement of labor de facto. But nobody must admit it. It is effectively very similar to the way it would be to go to the UK. And it is a nasty lie to maintain the difference is anything but quantitative; just a slightly different point on a continuum, if that.
Click to expand...

Oh more anti-EU bull**** from you. YES there is freedom of movement between countries. They cant prevent you from moving if you have a legitimate reason for doing so... and that is freedom of movement when we are talking between sovereign countries.
 
PeteEU said:
Oh more anti-EU bull**** from you. YES there is freedom of movement between countries. They cant prevent you from moving if you have a legitimate reason for doing so... and that is freedom of movement when we are talking between sovereign countries.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

No EU citizen is precluded from moving to any place in the EU that s/he wants to move to. That such a move is not supposed to be designed for the person moving to fall upon the state coffers from the movement of arrival is nothing new.

Germany is simply in the process of clearing that up more, where other EU countries have been doing that for years already. Up til now anyone having moved to Germany and not having a job could apply for dole after 6 months. In January of this year that concerned 440,000 people altogether (92,000 Poles, 71,000 Italians, 70,000 Bulgarians, 57.000 Romanians and 46,000 Greeks). Many of them were low earners, supplementing their income with social assistance.

Somebody tell me why I've had a resident permit in Spain for years, if this is all so new. Only thing that changed with the years is that it need no longer find re-appliance every couple of years anymore.

But if I should lose my means of support, the state here sure as heck won't support me.
 
Chagos said:
But if I should lose my means of support, the state here sure as heck won't support me.
Click to expand...

Actually if you are registered AND pay taxes, then it should up to a degree. So unemployment if you lose your job, but again here the EU rules can be applied to kick you out after 6 months, because then you become a "burden for society".

But yes, most of your taxes goes to healthcare coverage and if you are over 67... almost free medicine.
 
PeteEU said:
Oh more anti-EU bull**** from you. YES there is freedom of movement between countries. They cant prevent you from moving if you have a legitimate reason for doing so... and that is freedom of movement when we are talking between sovereign countries.
Click to expand...

Sure. Like the refugees can come to Europe. The difference is that the refugees at least get support. ;)
Your humor is truly exquisite.
 
PeteEU said:
Actually if you are registered AND pay taxes, then it should up to a degree.
Click to expand...
Oh, true enough.
So unemployment if you lose your job, but again here the EU rules can be applied to kick you out after 6 months, because then you become a "burden for society".
Click to expand...
Never looked into that here in Spain where I would be concerned, having "carried myself" for years here. In Germany, as I happen to know, if one pays his dues and, more importantly, has done so for a great part of his/her life, shipping them off after a certain time is not on the books. Mainly because they've accrued nothing (no eligibility for anything) in their home country in the meantime. The currently proposed bill changes nothing in that kind of setup, not being designed to address people like that anyway.
But yes, most of your taxes goes to healthcare coverage and if you are over 67... almost free medicine.
Click to expand...
Yup, add bilateral (reciprocal) agreements on healthcare where they exist.
 
Somebody is confusing things again (habitually, as we all know).

Like "recognized" refugees and those that are eventually shipped off again (at least in theory) on account of not being eligible for that status.

The idea behind it being that those truly fleeing insufferable conditions of persecution have no other choice. Something to do with such annoying irrelevancies as human right's charters.

Conflating that with dole tourists, EU or not, is just another example either of rampant confusion or simple (and intentional) misrepresentation.

:roll:
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom