EU should prepare for waves of returning Jhiadists.

Auvergnat · Oct 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
yes like how a certain German targeted Jews for targeted legislation.. and no I am not comparing Jews to Terrorists... but the principle.

You are looking in the wrong direction, the Nazis are on the other side. This is not the far-right you should be afraid of.

PeteEU · Oct 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
You are looking in the wrong direction, the Nazis are on the other side. This is not the far-right you should be afraid of.

Err radical religious nutjobs are in the far right.. and it has nothing to do with the nazis.. you do understand what a principle is right?

Infinite Chaos · Oct 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
Yes it has to be all, but since the UK blocked revision of the rules, then that was dead on arrival..

And why did the UK block that revision? There are plenty of better ways that countries could deal with jihadis together already.

PeteEU said:
~ Would never hold up in the UK supreme court, let alone the EU court system. Hence my "good legislation" issue.

I know it wouldn't but it's the best policy. The alternative is make sure these people meet a drone or have as militarily difficult a path back to Europe as possible. People die on the battlefields - pretty sure if given the alternative, many would happily give up citizenship.

Auvergnat said:
But other countries will have your citizens on their land and they will want to send them back to you.

Syria? Libya? These people happily went there. I'm happy for them to stay. It's up to the EU and other European nations to make sure they have tough border policies and make sure a common front is kept.

Auvergnat said:
You will deny them this right and force them to keep your citizens because you declared they are no longer yours?

It's already happened, we took citizenship away from many dual nationals who went to join ISIS.

Auvergnat said:
It's like leaving your child at school and tell teachers to deal with him because you no longer want it. Or throwing away your garbage on your neighbor's garden. It's despicable and will only cause you a crapton of diplomatic problems with no substantial gain.

Hyperbole, we're talking real islamists and jihadis here. I don't want them back. We shouldn't have prevented so many from leaving - some should have been encouraged to go but hand their passports in when they went to join al-Baghdahi in Raqqa.

Auvergnat said:
You are leftist when you should be rightist, rightist when you should be leftist.

LOL, what? These people chose to join an enemy state / force that was bent on harming us. That makes them enemy in my eyes and they don't deserve the rights a British passport gives them.

Auvergnat · Oct 19, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Syria? Libya? These people happily went there. I'm happy for them to stay. It's up to the EU and other European nations to make sure they have tough border policies and make sure a common front is kept.

Rather Turkey or Tunisia since I doubt that Syrian airports are still working. But even if it was Syria, maybe you remember they joined a group opposed to the power in place and to many or most of the population? Imagine Pakistan refusing a man who killed British citizens because he went on your land to butcher you after all, so your problem.

Face your responsibilities and do not burden poorer countries with your own criminals they are unrelated to. Especially since you always blame France and Britain for Islamism: this is some sick double standard you have there.

It's already happened, we took citizenship away from many dual nationals who went to join ISIS.

But we are precisely discussing about those with a single nationality.

Double nationals are a different problem. Not that I approve stripping them of citizenship: I value this concept too much for the little there is too gain, better to throw them in jail. But at least it is arguable, as opposed to what you suggest, especially given your systematic victimization of Muslims and constant whining that France and Britain are to blame for everything that goes wrong with them.

Hyperbole, we're talking real islamists and jihadis here. I don't want them back.

I suggest that from now on, whenever you want to deport illegal Pakistani migrants, Pakistan should refuse them and tell you it is not their problem.

Soon you will be drown under hordes of migrants that countries with refuse to take back. We will see whether it changes your mind and make you honor your own duties. Let's start with the refugees you send back to France and that we only accept to take back according to Shengen's principles.

Since you want to no longer give a damn about commonly accepted international obligations and throw your garbage at our face, let's all do the same with UK.

PeteEU · Oct 19, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
And why did the UK block that revision? There are plenty of better ways that countries could deal with jihadis together already.

Because the UK wanted controls on EU migration.

truthatallcost · Oct 19, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
We shouldn't even let them in. This has to be Europe wide, not just the countries with the balls to stand up.

Funny, when I advocated passport removal in another thread you argued we should use legislation, i.e. make travel to Syria illegal. Here you are arguing against the suggestion of legislation.

Germany?s migration office failed to detect fake passports, say officials | News | DW.COM | 17.09.2016

I'm not sure about Denmark and the UK, but recent revelations have shown that fake passports work just fine for entering Germany.

When I was looking for my linked article, the first result on Google showing a site selling fake European passports! I can't imagine Isis is going to have much trouble waltzing into the EU, they've done it before.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 6, 2016

truthatallcost said:
~ I can't imagine Isis is going to have much trouble waltzing into the EU, they've done it before.

That is troubling, but I am hoping that we make it as hard for the wrong people to escape from Mosul and Raqqa as possible. Having seen some very questionable "refugee children" being let into our country recently, I am not hopeful.

Auvergnat said:
~ Especially since you always blame France and Britain for Islamism: this is some sick double standard you have there.

I always thought I blamed islamists for islamism... Can you point out a specific post where I blamed France or Britain?

Auvergnat said:
~ But we are precisely discussing about those with a single nationality.

Who chose to betray that nationality. I don't want these people back in the UK, I'd rather not have them come back to Europe. Ideally, these people will face justice in Syria and Iraq or the crimes they commit there.

Auvergnat said:
~ Double nationals are a different problem. Not that I approve stripping them of citizenship:

I do and I support the UK stripping their citizenship.

Auvergnat said:
~ I value this concept too much for the little there is too gain, better to throw them in jail.

And where would that jail be? How would you provide evidence from the battlefield?

Auvergnat said:
~ especially given your systematic victimization of Muslims and constant whining that France and Britain are to blame for everything that goes wrong with them

Where have I said this? Are you not the one who wants all muslims out of France?

Auvergnat said:
~ I suggest that from now on, whenever you want to deport illegal Pakistani migrants, Pakistan should refuse them and tell you it is not their problem.

Not sure what argument you are making, especially if these illegals are just that, illegal...

Auvergnat said:
~ Soon you will be drown under hordes of migrants that countries with refuse to take back. We will see whether it changes your mind and make you honor your own duties. Let's start with the refugees you send back to France and that we only accept to take back according to Shengen's principles.

If the case for asylum is genuine then we should take people. Otherwise no and that includes Schengen. These are people who walk through many safe countries to get to France and Britain - if they were after simple and pure asylum then they should make a claim at first point of safety. Equally, France is calling their bluff in Calais by processing people to make them claim asylum - this way, cases can be investigated and fake claimants should be dealt with.

Auvergnat said:
~ Since you want to no longer give a damn about commonly accepted international obligations and throw your garbage at our face, let's all do the same with UK.

Stop being so emotional.

Auvergnat · Nov 6, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Not sure what argument you are making, especially if these illegals are just that, illegal...

There is an international treaty where every country vowed to automatically take back its citizens and not strip them of their last citizenship. This is the treaty that allows you to deport illegal migrants: their countries take them back because of this treaty.

What you propose is to break this treaty and refuse to assume your own responsibilities. Then do not be surprised when other countries do the same and you can no longer deport illegals.

Stop being so emotional.

I am not emotional at all. You are proposing to no longer honor your international obligations. Then we would do the same with you and I exposed you the consequences.

How would you provide evidence from the battlefield?

I would not and I would leave them free rather than risk jailing innocents. A few hundreds of deaths a year is not such a problem that we must become hysteric and get rid of the presumption of innocence.

Are you not the one who wants all muslims out of France?

No, I am not, and this would be infeasible anyway.

I would expel the foreigners, not our citizens. I would get rid of Islam through other means, without kicking French citizens out.

If the case for asylum is genuine then we should take people. Otherwise no and that includes Schengen. These are people who walk through many safe countries to get to France and Britain - if they were after simple and pure asylum then they should make a claim at first point of safety. Equally, France is calling their bluff in Calais by processing people to make them claim asylum - this way, cases can be investigated and fake claimants should be dealt with.

But what do you do if a Syrian refuses to ask for asylum in your country? Do you deport him to Syria?

What if he is a child whose only known relatives are in another country, and this country does not want him? Do you deport him?

This is the dilemma we face in France: most are true refugees, but fleeing war does not make you stop wanting a better life, mind you.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 6, 2016

Auvergnat said:
~ There is an international treaty where every country vowed to automatically take back its citizens and not strip them of their last citizenship. This is the treaty that allows you to deport illegal migrants: their countries take them back because of this treaty.

You mentioned illegal Pakistani immigrants. If we know they are Pakistani they can be deported back to Pakistan.

Auvergnat said:
~ What you propose is to break this treaty and refuse to assume your own responsibilities. Then do not be surprised when other countries do the same and you can no longer deport illegals

We are past that situation already when illegals throw their passports and documentation away and pretend they are not from any one specific nation. We are sidetracked however - if a UK citizen runs off to Syria to fight for ISIS and kills western innocent citizens (or beheads them as Jihadi John did), putting them in prison is the worst thing possible as you have a martyr in the making. Better he has no chance of return or that he has a one way meeting with a drone launched missile. Bringing or allowing someone like that back is foolishness.

Auvergnat said:
~ I am not emotional at all. You are proposing to no longer honor your international obligations. Then we would do the same with you and I exposed you the consequences.

We took people like Gary Glitter back when he wore out his welcome in Thailand. He did not take up arms against his own. The jihadis and fools who went to join ISIS in Syria and Northern Iraq are a different matter and do not deserve the chance to return to the UK. Rather, they have committed crimes and war crimes there and should face punishment there.

Auvergnat said:
~ I would not and I would leave them free rather than risk jailing innocents. A few hundreds of deaths a year is not such a problem that we must become hysteric and get rid of the presumption of innocence.

There is no presumption of innocence when they leave messages stating that they want to leave, go on video saying they wish to join an extremist organisation committed to doing us harm or are filmed walking through airports en route to a caliphate.

Auvergnat said:
~ I would expel the foreigners, not our citizens. I would get rid of Islam through other means, without kicking French citizens out.

I'll remind you next time you are saying all muslims in France are jihadis.

Auvergnat said:
~ But what do you do if a Syrian refuses to ask for asylum in your country? Do you deport him to Syria?

If he/she refuses then what difference is there with a Vietnamese who has entered my country illegally and refuses to ask for asylum? Should the rules not be the same for all?

Auvergnat said:
~ What if he is a child whose only known relatives are in another country, and this country does not want him? Do you deport him?

We are taking child refugees, I only wish many really were children. Some we have seen in papers here are definitely not children.

Auvergnat said:
~ most are true refugees ~

Any true asylum seeker or refugee from war deserves asylum but they cannot simply expect to go wherever they wish and walk through a range of countries which are safe and could give them asylum.

Auvergnat · Nov 6, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
You mentioned illegal Pakistani immigrants. If we know they are Pakistani they can be deported back to Pakistan.

The Pakistan could refuse its own citizens, forcing you to keep them. Trying to use force would be a territorial violation sanctioned by international laws and would result in sanctions such as a ban of your air companies in Pakistan.

Currently they allow you to return them their citizens because of the treaty you want to violate, that forces every country to take in its citizens. If you don't want British citizens, then they don't want Pakistani citizens, who are better in your country.

Better he has no chance of return or that he has a one way meeting with a drone launched missile. Bringing or allowing someone like that back is foolishness.

And my excrements are better on your loan, otherwise I do have to build a septic tank.

If he/she refuses then what difference is there with a Vietnamese who has entered my country illegally and refuses to ask for asylum? Should the rules not be the same for all?

Sending back the Vietnamese will not cause his death.

They ARE true refugees yet they CHOOSE their country. Because they know we will not deport them and they do seek happiness. So would you deport them to their death? I we force them to pick asylum, they will. Then they will flock to Calais with their asylum titles.

Regrettably for bureaucracy, human beings do not give a damn about bureaucracy.

I'll remind you next time you are saying all muslims in France are jihadis.

I never said such a stupid thing and will never do it. You were probably too busy answering me to read me.

Roadvirus · Nov 6, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Mosul battle: EU 'should prepare for returning jihadists' - BBC News

Remember those lovely lads and lasses that left the UK and Europe to fight their holy war in Syria? Well they should be heading back our way in the next few months. Still want them to have their passports?

Simple solution: DON'T LET THEM BACK IN!

But Euro ****heads like Urkel Merkel will do it.
Sweden will take some in too. Gotta keep those rape statistics up!
And France? No terrorist attacks in a while, so Hollande is going to bring in some to solve that problem.
And the Brussel Sprouts in Belgium? Who knows about those cabbage brains.

Roadvirus · Nov 6, 2016

PeteEU said:
Imprisoned for what exactly and based on what proof? Just trying to figure out the legalities in all this.

Are you f-ing kidding me? They are fighting for a TERRORIST ORGANZATION! Isn't that enough?

Lafayette · Nov 7, 2016

Roadvirus said:
Simple solution: DON'T LET THEM BACK IN! But Euro ****heads like Urkel Merkel will do it.
Sweden will take some in too. Gotta keep those rape statistics up! And France? No terrorist attacks in a while, so Hollande is going to bring in some to solve that problem. And the Brussel Sprouts in Belgium? Who knows about those cabbage brains.

Tiresome and emotional prattle from some dork in the wilds of Illinois.

Consider this infographic here:

What do we see? Two factors are remarkably clear:
*American mothers are doing their damnedest to make sure the American workforce will be able in the future to have sufficient numbers that work, earn income to sustain Demand and thus America's Market-economy. All elements of which are needed to sustain our retirement pensions!
*That is not the least bit the future of Europe, where women are putting off having children for a variety of reasons.

Which indicates that the migrants, most of whom are NOT ISIS OPERATIVES, will be absorbed into a workforce that needs them badly in Europe ... !

About the jihadists: With the noose closing around both Mosoul and Raqqa, the DorkHead-in-Chief (aka "al Baghdadi") must feel that his days are numbered. Given the formational history of ISIS, when he goes, the rest just falls apart. Selective bombings have taken out most of the ISIS Sunnites from Hussein's ex-Army that were the military-brains behind the "ragtag jihadist army" that they put together.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 7, 2016

Auvergnat said:
The Pakistan could refuse its own citizens, forcing you to keep them. Trying to use force would be a territorial violation sanctioned by international laws and would result in sanctions such as a ban of your air companies in Pakistan.

Like I said before, if we know a migrant's country of origin, they can be deported back. The problem is that the UK in 2015 had more asylum applications than the rest of Europe put together. We're talking jihadis from the UK going to Syria however and there seems to be an alternate solution being proposed.

SAS in Iraq given 'kill list' of 200 British jihadis to take out

Auvergnat · Nov 7, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Like I said before, if we know a migrant's country of origin, they can be deported back.

This country also needs to accept this migrant, even if they do acknowledge him as their citizen. They could bar him from entering, and any plane carrying him.

Today they accept him because of the treaty you propose to violate by not accepting yours.

It may be the fifth time I try to explain you this.

Lafayette · Nov 8, 2016

{EU should prepare for waves of returning Jhiadists.}

Nope, aint gonna happin.

The jihadists fighting in Syria/Iraq today are not mostly of European origin, but either northeast African or the middle-east. And of those that are of European, many are already known.

It's not Mission Impossible to get back into the EU, but it neither are they any "Great Threat".

They are nonetheless a threat. Excerpted from Time Magazine - Europe’s Top Cop: It’s ‘Almost Certain’ Terrorists Will Try to Strike Again:

For months, E.U. officials have faced criticism for failing to prevent the Paris and Brussels attacks, with many intelligence experts blaming the lack of information sharing. Away from the debate and out of the spotlight, the E.U’s law-enforcement agency Europol has quietly tried to piece together the terror threats, working out of its sleek, modern headquarters in the small Dutch capital of The Hague.

Europol has not escaped criticism, too: Some E.U. lawmakers fear some European officials want the organization to become a “European CIA.” However, the organization is tiny by comparison to the CIA, with a staff of about 1,000 and a budget in 2015 of €94.4 million ($106 million).

Wainwright’s assessment is sobering, including that “several hundred” battle-trained European jihadists are likely plotting further major attacks, and that his agency is supporting some 50 ongoing terrorist investigations. Wainwright, who is British, is also convinced his country will be far less secure if Britons vote on June 23 to leave the E.U. in a so-called “Brexit.” As for Europe as a whole, he says: “The threat is alive and current. Another attempted attack is almost certain.”

Should we panic? And what good would that do ... ?

Infinite Chaos · Nov 8, 2016

Auvergnat said:
~ It may be the fifth time I try to explain you this.

You can explain as many times as you wish. With regard to jihadis with British passports who wish to return, my position remains "no way." Better still, I hope the SAS hit list is true and acted on. European nations should make it as hard as possible if not impossible for jihadis to return.

joG · Nov 8, 2016

PeteEU said:
Most will be killed in the battle.

And are you for taking away citizenship of people who only have one?

All one need do is make it illegal to travel to the problematic countries or googleing bomb building or poisons that can be used to kill many at once or say you hate it when people speak badly of Allah. Then all one need do is arrest and prosecute. No need for difficult proofs and forensics.

joG · Nov 8, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
You can explain as many times as you wish. With regard to jihadis with British passports who wish to return, my position remains "no way." Better still, I hope the SAS hit list is true and acted on. European nations should make it as hard as possible if not impossible for jihadis to return.

Forbid citizens going to bad countries. Then you can arrest potential terrorists for breaking that law. Not much proof required to zap them then. Attach a huge penalty and there you are.

Higgins86 · Nov 8, 2016

Lafayette said:
{EU should prepare for waves of returning Jhiadists.}

Nope, aint gonna happin.

The jihadists fighting in Syria/Iraq today are not mostly of European origin, but either northeast African or the middle-east. And of those that are of European, many are already known.

It's not Mission Impossible to get back into the EU, but it neither are they any "Great Threat".

They are nonetheless a threat. Excerpted from Time Magazine - Europe’s Top Cop: It’s ‘Almost Certain’ Terrorists Will Try to Strike Again:

Should we panic? And what good would that do ... ?

Maybe as a Frenchman you should start panicking?

Chagos · Nov 8, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Maybe as a Frenchman you should start panicking?

I believe he's American, living in France (or so I seem to recall).

Chagos · Nov 8, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
You can explain as many times as you wish. With regard to jihadis with British passports who wish to return, my position remains "no way." Better still, I hope the SAS hit list is true and acted on. European nations should make it as hard as possible if not impossible for jihadis to return.

I'm not up to date on this wrt UK, but I believe certain constitutions (read: of individual states) forbid refusing re-entry of those holding that state's citizenship.

Not even sure how Spain handles cases like these on account of there being no incidences so far ("native" jihadists are something of an exception here, arrests made almost all pertained to Moroccons).

Germany however has far more such incidences and returnees (if recognized as such) automatically undergo investigation. With their propensity (and that of their ideological peers) for narcissistic video appearances, it suffices if they turn up in one of IS's pieces of art. Due process it is and it always ends in jail time. Being part, however remotely, of a terrorist organization is a crime in Germany. Dates back to the times of Bader-Meinhof.

There's no official provision for XPD-ing in either Germany or Spain but, official or not, I wouldn't want to cross anyone from the latter country by placing bets.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 9, 2016

joG said:
Forbid citizens going to bad countries. Then you can arrest potential terrorists for breaking that law. Not much proof required to zap them then. Attach a huge penalty and there you are.

I think that was the huge mistake - rather than stop extremists leaving, we kept them here and then had to watch their every move and suffer the consequences of their plans being acted out here instead. I would rather we encouraged their passage and asked for them to renounce their passports from them on their way out.

joG · Nov 9, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
I think that was the huge mistake - rather than stop extremists leaving, we kept them here and then had to watch their every move and suffer the consequences of their plans being acted out here instead. I would rather we encouraged their passage and asked for them to renounce their passports from them on their way out.

Anything would have been better than forcing them underground.

EU should prepare for waves of returning Jhiadists.

Auvergnat

PeteEU

Infinite Chaos

Auvergnat

PeteEU

truthatallcost

Infinite Chaos

Auvergnat

Infinite Chaos

Auvergnat

Roadvirus

Heading North

Roadvirus

Heading North

Lafayette

Infinite Chaos

Auvergnat

Lafayette

Infinite Chaos

joG

joG

Higgins86

Chagos

Chagos

Infinite Chaos

joG