Arguing for state schools but sending your own kids to private school

PeteEU · Oct 13, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Hi dude, it is hypocrisy when you also fight to prevent others having that same chance you are giving your own kids.

Err no. She pays for herself.. you are talking about using public funds to pay for private schooling.. that is just wrong.

Like I suspected, arguing without knowing any facts.. :lol:

Depends on the facts! But no, I dont know how the English schooling system works now days.

Kids go to primary schools which then become feeders for other state schools. The highest achieving kids in different local primary schools can sit entrance exams for nearby selective schools and sometimes these are grammar schools. Some parents also deliberately move house so they can be in the area for a primary school which feeds a good school. You can apply for a school outside your area but you have to pay transportation.

Here is the fundamental problem... elitism built into a system. Enhanced selective.. all bad in a schooling system and in fact in any society.

In my town, there are 4 schools, all average. In nearby smaller towns there are some very successful schools, one of which is a grammar school. Parents in my town have no choice but to bus their kids out of town at own cost to get their kids to a good school. We have one private school which has very good results and the rich families send their kids there. I've met tutors and the schools are basically factories - the teaching is always aimed at getting the highest results possible, there is no breadth in teaching. The teaching is also formulaic and by rote - I know the art tutor and his students ALL produce exactly the same work, exactly the same techniques and all guaranteed to get grade A in A level.

More elitism.. that is your problem. Yes your town has 4 schools and the kids should go there, as they should be as good as the nearby smaller towns. Putting a different name on schools (Grammer, academy) only paves over the fundamental problem.. class warfare and elitism.

Everyone wants the state education system to improve; only one party wishes to deny other parents the same choice they avail themselves. There's a simple word for it.

It wont improve if you spend public money private elitist schools for the few...

Infinite Chaos · Oct 13, 2016

HonestJoe said:
~In what way are selective schools about choice?

Ah, you must think parents are forced to apply.

HonestJoe said:
~They’re explicitly restricted to those children with the ability to pass a fairly narrow type of academic testing with the parents with the ability and resources to arrange it.

All addressed before – see my comments regarding Grammar Schools and Shirley Williams then vs Grammar schools now.

HonestJoe said:
~needs focusing on those children who aren’t traditionally academic, to help them achieve a level of general academic understanding they need to make their way in any field and to help they find where they can excel. It was the lack of that which led to the original Grammar system failing and it seems some people are looking to repeat history, whether they realise it or not.

Then you should look at what is proposed. It is clear you have focused only on the selective schools and ignored all the other proposals being developed.

PeteEU said:
Err no. She pays for herself..

And*gains advantage for her kids that she*and her party deny others.*

PeteEU said:
~ no, I dont know how the English schooling system works now days ~*

That about says it Pete.

HonestJoe · Oct 13, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Ah, you must think parents are forced to apply.

No, I think they can apply in the same way they do for other schools, there is just an additional barrier to entry. Even if introducing some Grammar schools improved the education system overall, it wouldn't be a result of additional choice. As it happens, I don't consider choice the be-all and end-all anyway. That's a political con much like the term "Grammar School".

Infinite Chaos said:
All addressed before – see my comments regarding Grammar Schools and Shirley Williams then vs Grammar schools now.

I couldn't find any specific point you made in relation to this. The fundamental issues with the limitation of these entrance exams are the same as they've always been.....

Infinite Chaos said:
Then you should look at what is proposed. It is clear you have focused only on the selective schools and ignored all the other proposals being developed.

That's an ex-Minister talking about what he thinks should happen (and makes some good points), not what the government is actually going to do (or even saying they're going to do).

Let's be clear here. It is very rare for any government to make the kind of wholesale changes necessary to really improve any core element of the state structure. There is no change of any government making the kind of shift across the entire education system to the point that this narrow academic selection could play a positive role.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 14, 2016

HonestJoe said:
~ That's an ex-Minister talking about what he thinks should happen ~

I meant the little green box that summarised what the proposals are.

HonestJoe · Oct 14, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
I meant the little green box that summarised what the proposals are.

There’s only two points on that related to Grammars and they’re very much afterthoughts. The whole theme is “More Grammars… and I guess some other schools too” rather than “Better schools to meet the needs of all children”, which could even include some academic selection, just not as the core focus and priority. This isn’t about improving the education systems as a whole, it’s about tacking (more) Grammar Schools on because it sounds good to their electoral base.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 15, 2016

HonestJoe said:
There’s only two points on that related to Grammars and they’re very much afterthoughts. The whole theme is “More Grammars… and I guess some other schools too” rather than “Better schools to meet the needs of all children”, which could even include some academic selection, just not as the core focus and priority. This isn’t about improving the education systems as a whole, it’s about tacking (more) Grammar Schools on because it sounds good to their electoral base.

Unfortunately those other schools have been developed and spreading - UTCs, free schools etc etc. You have the wrong tree to bark at.