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How UK politics may change with Corbyn

gunner said:
You still don't get it. She's the 'vice chair' of the main group that run Corbyns campaign. What part are you struggling with?

As Vice Chair of Momentum Jackie Walker has consistently failed to demonstrate any sensitivity to the impact of her words and actions upon the Jewish community. She must now consider her position, show some sensitivity and contrition or resign.”

Watch: Fury At Anti-Semitism Event As Momentum Vice Chair Jackie Walker Criticises Holocaust Memorial Day | Huffington Post
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She is a Jew! I can remember back when the other thing came up the amount of support she got from the Jewish community. You are speaking about one voice of the argument. Here is what she said about what happened. From your own link

In a statement she said the video had been leaked unethically, and that she “utterly condemns antisemitism”:

“A number of people made comments in a private training session run by the Jewish Labour Movement. As we all know, training sessions are intended to be safe spaces where ideas and questions can be explored.

“A film of this session was leaked to the press unethically. I did not raise a question on security in Jewish schools. The trainer raised this issue and I asked for clarification, in particular as all London primary schools, to my knowledge, have security and I did not understand the particular point the trainer was making.

“Having been a victim of racism I would never play down the very real fears the Jewish community have, especially in light of recent attacks in France.

“In the session, a number of Jewish people, including me, asked for definitions of antisemitism. This is a subject of much debate in the Jewish community. I support David Schneider’s definition and utterly condemn antisemitism.

“I would never play down the significance of the Shoah. Working with many Jewish comrades, I continue to seek to bring greater awareness of other genocides, which are too often forgotten or minimised. If offence has been caused, it is the last thing I would want to do and I apologise.”
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I knew it would not take long for Jews for Justice for Palestinians to put something on this - note Jews from the Jewish community

Jewish Labour activists in defence of Jackie Walker

We are Jewish Labour activists who were with Jackie Walker at the training session on antisemitism led by Mike Katz, vice chair of the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) during the Labour Party conference in Liverpool on Monday September 26. Like her, some of us were heckled when we raised questions unpalatable to others in the audience who share the JLM’s bias towards Israel, its coupling of Jewish identity with Zionism and its insistence on the uniqueness of Jewish suffering.

snip-

We unreservedly condemn allegations of antisemitism made against Jackie Walker. Calls for her to be disowned by the Momentum movement of which she is vice-chair, and for her to be suspended for a second time from the Labour Party, are reprehensible instances of the witch hunt to which she and other Corbyn supporters have been subjected over recent months.

The way Jackie has been treated demonstrates the unfitness of the JLM to deliver training on antisemitism. It is an organisation committed to one, contested strand of Jewish labour tradition to the exclusion of any other; it relies on a definition of antisemitism that conflates Jewish identity with Zionism; and it exploits its interactions with party members to set the limits of political discourse about the Middle East in accordance with its own partisan ideology.
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cont'd Bullying Right fire ?antisemitism? bullets at left-wing women | Jews for Justice for Palestinians

She is well supported by the 'Jewish Community'. I think how Andalublue described this
one Jewish Momentum activist arguing with the other Labour Jewish activists.
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is really the nitty gritty of what is going on here. Jews like all people have many different opinions on all sorts of things, not just one.
 
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Andalublue said:
I've no idea about the past of this individual. I'd never heard of her before this thread and as far as I'm aware she holds no post within the Labour party, still less the Corbyn leadership. I'd expect Momentum will review her position and the Labour party may well suspend her membership.
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She was suspended from the Labour Party for suggesting jews were financiers of the slave and sugar trade. Apparently one of the reasons there were so many synagogues in the Caribbean.

Her position has been reviewed before and then she has been reinstated.

Haaretz has a copy of the BBC screen capture of her actual tweet with those words she later claimed were a mash up and reinterpretation of her words.

Blame the Jews for the slave trade: Labour's latest anti-Semitic slander - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com

Jews she claims have all the sympathies and not the "others who also suffered holocaust" however if we accept the word African Holocaust - then she surely also has to accept that Arab and African slave traders were deeply involved in the slave trade too. She doesn't however and reserves her ire for Jews.

Andalublue said:
Or are they perhaps yet another tactic in weaponising identity politics?
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I don't know, I'm discussing Jackie Walker.

Anti-Semitism row: Momentum organiser Jackie Walker readmitted to Labour party following racism allegations | The Independent

alexa said:
~ they managed to find on a old twitter post which was taken out of context ~
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Her actual post is on the Haaretz link above. She claims Jews were major financiers of the slave and sugar trade. When you search further on the claims she makes - the prime sources repeating this are Rense, Stormfront, David Duke's website, Louis Farrakhan's website and a few other pretty unsavoury websites.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
She was suspended from the Labour Party for suggesting jews were financiers of the slave and sugar trade. Apparently one of the reasons there were so many synagogues in the Caribbean.

Her position has been reviewed before and then she has been reinstated.

Haaretz has a copy of the BBC screen capture of her actual tweet with those words she later claimed were a mash up and reinterpretation of her words.

Blame the Jews for the slave trade: Labour's latest anti-Semitic slander - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com

Jews she claims have all the sympathies and not the "others who also suffered holocaust" however if we accept the word African Holocaust - then she surely also has to accept that Arab and African slave traders were deeply involved in the slave trade too. She doesn't however and reserves her ire for Jews.



I don't know, I'm discussing Jackie Walker.

Anti-Semitism row: Momentum organiser Jackie Walker readmitted to Labour party following racism allegations | The Independent



Her actual post is on the Haaretz link above. She claims Jews were major financiers of the slave and sugar trade. When you search further on the claims she makes - the prime sources repeating this are Rense, Stormfront, David Duke's website, Louis Farrakhan's website and a few other pretty unsavoury websites.
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You seem to be obsessing on the third dictum of your signature, IC. How about discussing ideas? Or even the topic of the thread?

Honestly, who here feels qualified to referee a dispute between two different Jewish schools of thought on the Holocaust or slavery? Not me, nor would I want to since it has zero to do with Jeremy Corbyn's plans for the future policy direction of the Labour Party.
 
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Andalublue said:
You seem to be obsessing on the third dictum of your signature, IC. How about discussing ideas? Or even the topic of the thread?
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Is that an admission she is an anti-Semite and you can't discuss further?

Well, as she is deputy leader of a group that has learned to use social media and is highly active through social media, I suppose we can't discuss her views and ideas any further as it's a bit uncomfortable. :2wave:
 
Andalublue said:
You want to start throwing anti-semitism accusations at Jewish people? Be my guest. I'm not qualified.
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Well, as someone born in Africa and half African I can discuss how Africans had a huge part to play in the slave trade before Europeans got involved.
 
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Andalublue said:
You want to start throwing anti-semitism accusations at Jewish people? Be my guest. I'm not qualified.
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So she gets a free pass on despicable views. Sorry Andy, I thought you had bigger stones, rather than shy away from a topic for fear of upsetting someone.
 
Labour is in dire straights because of corbyn hes too arrogant to listen to his own party members. hes in denial too, hes convinced hes going to win in 2020 cant wait till they bomb then hell have no choice but to steps aside
 
This episode has now made it to all the major news outlets:

But a spokesman for Momentum, the left-wing grassroots organisation set up in wake of Jeremy Corbyn's 2015 election as Labour leader, said: "Members of Momentum's steering committee are seeking to remove Jackie Walker as vice-chair of thecommittee."

Calls for Momentum vice-chair to quit in anti-Semitism row - Calls for Momentum vice-chair to quit in anti-Semitism row - BBC News

What a piece of work the vice chair of Corbyns Momentum, seems to be.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
She was suspended from the Labour Party for suggesting jews were financiers of the slave and sugar trade. Apparently one of the reasons there were so many synagogues in the Caribbean.

Her position has been reviewed before and then she has been reinstated.

Haaretz has a copy of the BBC screen capture of her actual tweet with those words she later claimed were a mash up and reinterpretation of her words.

Blame the Jews for the slave trade: Labour's latest anti-Semitic slander - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com

Jews she claims have all the sympathies and not the "others who also suffered holocaust" however if we accept the word African Holocaust - then she surely also has to accept that Arab and African slave traders were deeply involved in the slave trade too. She doesn't however and reserves her ire for Jews.



I don't know, I'm discussing Jackie Walker.

Anti-Semitism row: Momentum organiser Jackie Walker readmitted to Labour party following racism allegations | The Independent



Her actual post is on the Haaretz link above. She claims Jews were major financiers of the slave and sugar trade. When you search further on the claims she makes - the prime sources repeating this are Rense, Stormfront, David Duke's website, Louis Farrakhan's website and a few other pretty unsavoury websites.
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I have replied to your post here http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...lection-socialist-party-2.html#post1066370096

Sorry about that problems concerning whether I was logged in or not caused it to be lost two times. Thankfully the second I had copied it but unfortunately put it in the wrong thread.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Well, as someone born in Africa and half African I can discuss how Africans had a huge part to play in the slave trade before Europeans got involved.
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Yes, you can. I wouldn't, unless I knew a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do. I'm not qualified to comment on that topic either. There'd be a lot less stupid around these parts if people limited themselves to opining on **** they actually know something about, or at least recognised and admitted the limitations of their own understanding.
 
Andalublue said:
Yes, you can. I wouldn't, unless I knew a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do. I'm not qualified to comment on that topic either. There'd be a lot less stupid around these parts if people limited themselves to opining on **** they actually know something about, or at least recognised and admitted the limitations of their own understanding.
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I think it's a good indicator if someone is deemed despicable by group that a lot of people, have problems with; to then make a judgement. I don't know, may be it's life skills or life experience or some tacit knowledge.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ackie-walker-over-holocaust-remarks?CMP=fb_gu
 
Andalublue said:
Momentum is independent of, i.e. has no institutional links with the Labour Party. It supports the Corbyn project, it does not lead it, and the views of one member of Momentum really doesn't tell you anything about Corbyn or Labour, even though I see you're desperate that it should. It's pretty pathetic the desperation with which you grasp at the debatable statements of one individual to smear an entire movement.

I guess an inability to debate the Corbyn-led Labour Party's proposals on economics, industry, investment, health and welfare means you have to focus on Daily Mail-style talking points. That's pretty weak coming from a self-proclaimed academic.
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alexa said:
She is a Jew of African descent and married to a Jew. When there was the witch hunt on antisemitism in the Labour party she was one of the people who was temporarily suspended due to something they managed to find on a old twitter post which was taken out of context. She is a woman who has been strongly involved in work against racism and she was furious when this happened 'If they could do this to me they can do it to anyone'. she said. She was quickly reinstated. Possibly what this is more about is an argument between British Jews who support Israel and wish for criticism of that to be seen as antisemetic and British Jews who are critical of Israel and see that as a flawed approached to the very real subject of antisemitism. During the time of holloring of antisemitism at the Labour Party, British Jews who are critical of Israel got very strongly involved feeling the need for antisemitism not to be used as a way to silence political argument in the UK. JFJFP, Independent Jewish Voices and something like Jewish Socialists all putting in their own papers to the Labour Party inquiry on antisemitism.

Jews who are critical of Israel and see antismitism as something quite apart from political viewpoint have expressed particular concern about the Jewish Labour Movement whose intent they believe is to equate the two and who is mentioned in the article. I know from reading earlier that Jews who are critical of Israel made a definite decision to not let JML be alone to create policy. I guess that is what she was doing there - obviously we do not know the context but from what I have been able to gather she is a black female Jew who fights against all kind of racism including antisemitism but also fights for political freedom.

Perhaps we should remember that from about the 80's to shortly after 9/11 the Labour Party of the UK was strongly critical of Israel and interestingly at that time had a Jew as shadow foreign secretary who is one of the most critical of Israel voices around. That seems to have ended with this

I do not remember during that time Jews getting offended by this. Different times.
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Well, it looks there are some sensible people still attached to Labour:

The vice-chairwoman of pro-Corbyn group Momentum has been suspended by the Labour Party over controversial comments she made at a party training event, it has been reported

Momentum vice-chair 'suspended by Labour' amid anti-Semitism row - BBC News

Funny that Andy, someone who represents a group you suggest has no direct links to the Labour Party, has been suspended by the 'Labour Party' :doh

If, as you suggest, she has NO involvement or say or influence over CORBYN and Labour, what gives Labour the power to remove her? Because surely, if what you say is correct, it doesn't matter that she holds view that most people find despicable; because she is nothing to do with Corbyn or Labour. The trouble is, most people know full well she is everything to do with the policy and direction that Corbyn is pursuing. Remember, he has said as much many times that he wishes for Momentum to be heavily involved. I don't know, may be because you reside outside the UK you have lost a handle on our politics, but your views are woefully inaccurate over this issue.
 
Andalublue said:
Yes, you can. I wouldn't, unless I knew a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do. I'm not qualified to comment on that topic either. There'd be a lot less stupid around these parts if people limited themselves to opining on **** they actually know something about, or at least recognised and admitted the limitations of their own understanding.
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As far as I see it now Andy, there is bigger picture question for us now. Are we prepared to have a right leaning laissez faire political establishment disillusion the lower middle/working/under class of this country to the point that fascism takes root in the absence of social justice? It is clear from history that 'democratic right establishments' pretty much always side with fascism until their own class interests are threatened so, when the Ukip protest vote changes nothing, where do the lower middle/working/under class go from there? If a fundamentally democratic socialist agenda put forward by Corbyn is 'hard left' then it seems apparent to me that something is wrong.

On the other hand, it seems to me that too many right wingers are taking it for granted that everyone's political compass has shifted towards the economically libertarian right; received wisdom that laissez-faire economics is how things are rather than a construct of political ideology, the ultimate aim of the Thatcher project facilitated by the toothless New Labour who I am ashamed to say I trusted. If people born in the 80s are less well off than those born in the 70s, where are the 90s generation going to figure? The wealth of the 70s generation is ironically embedded in a positively not free market property cartel and guess who doesn't want that cartel undermined by a major social housing project? I was hearing the same crap about, 'My child can't get a council house because <insert victim>', in the 80s when we didn't have free migration in the EU. When I hear someone moaning that their child can't get a council house because they were sold off cheaply and never replaced and it is the governments fault for that then I'll take them seriously.

The underlying assumption seems to be that as generations become increasingly less prosperous then they will see the answer as moving further to the right, given enough pushing that is. Maybe I am being naive here but, I don't think that it is unconnected that Corbyn is attracting a young internet audience being written off now as 'clicktivists' according to the sneering Home Counties elites. I have faith in this disenfranchised younger generation that they will usurp their property entitled elders rather than facing the conflict of having to wait until they die so that they can inherit their place in the property cartel.
 
gunner said:
Funny that Andy, someone who represents a group you suggest has no direct links to the Labour Party, has been suspended by the 'Labour Party' :doh
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Stop playing silly gotcha games, Paul. I never said she has no links to Labour. She's a Labour party member. She holds no post in the Labour party, as far as I'm aware.

If, as you suggest, she has NO involvement or say or influence over CORBYN and Labour, what gives Labour the power to remove her?
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I'm sure she has the same influence and say over Jeremy Corbyn as any other individual member of the party. That is probably significantly less influence than all those nutters, councillors and MEP's in UKIP that come out with hilariously appalling things. And a good few Tories too. What's the difference? Labour seems determined to act against members who make racist statements. The other two parties, not so much.

I don't know, may be because you reside outside the UK you have lost a handle on our politics, but your views are woefully inaccurate over this issue.
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Your views are text book Tory smear tactics: find one nutter, tar the entire party with the outlier. Were this happening in any other party the entire machine would be working to hush it up. Look at the consequences that Zac Goldsmith has faced over his racist London mayoral campaign. Exactly. No consequences at all. I'm glad that Labour takes this kind of thing seriously, uncomfortable though it must be for all involved.
 
Andalublue said:
Stop playing silly gotcha games, Paul. I never said she has no links to Labour. She's a Labour party member. She holds no post in the Labour party, as far as I'm aware.

I'm sure she has the same influence and say over Jeremy Corbyn as any other individual member of the party. That is probably significantly less influence than all those nutters, councillors and MEP's in UKIP that come out with hilariously appalling things. And a good few Tories too. What's the difference? Labour seems determined to act against members who make racist statements. The other two parties, not so much.


Your views are text book Tory smear tactics: find one nutter, tar the entire party with the outlier. Were this happening in any other party the entire machine would be working to hush it up. Look at the consequences that Zac Goldsmith has faced over his racist London mayoral campaign. Exactly. No consequences at all. I'm glad that Labour takes this kind of thing seriously, uncomfortable though it must be for all involved.
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I thought we had reached peak dumb on Thursday this week when I mistakenly watched this 'political debate' programme on the new UCT channel (Under Conservative Threat). Ron Liddle supported this as well, is this what journalism has come to?

BBC Question Time: Angry Boston Hat Man Calls For 'Leftists' To Be Diagnosed With Mental Disorder | Huffington Post

The Labour panellists response was dire as well but, that was perhaps a lack of internet savvy on his part.
 
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William Rea said:
An awful lot of column inches and airtime being devoted to someone who is apparently unelectable?
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I should hope so! We're on a political debate forum. Did you read the Guardian article?
 
gunner said:
I should hope so! We're on a political debate forum. Did you read the Guardian article?
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I read it last night. As one of the comments below the article put it, an awful lot of assumptions being made about what constitutes a 'centre' in that article. I don't think I'll be accepting Kettle's assertions on that at face value.

I am also dubious about how much debate and how much re-enactment society there is in political debate these days. It appears that many people don't want to debate much, rather than just throw around rehearsed lines and memes.
 
William Rea said:
I thought we had reached peak dumb on Thursday this week when I mistakenly watched this 'political debate' programme on the new UCT channel (Under Conservative Threat). Ron Liddle supported this as well, is this what journalism has come to?

BBC Question Time: Angry Boston Hat Man Calls For 'Leftists' To Be Diagnosed With Mental Disorder | Huffington Post

The Labour panellists response was dire as well.
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Yeah, I saw that. Dire. Burgin did his best, but he's inexperienced and the BBC had ranged 3 experienced right-wingers and a hostile audience against him. The guy in the hat reminded me of a whole list of reds-under-the-bed DP paranoiacs. I actually think he might have been RepublicOfPublic.
 
Andalublue said:
Yeah, I saw that. Dire. Burgin did his best, but he's inexperienced and the BBC had ranged 3 experienced right-wingers and a hostile audience against him. The guy in the hat reminded me of a whole list of reds-under-the-bed DP paranoiacs. I actually think he might have been RepublicOfPublic.
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Yeah, I hadn't considered RoP but, now you say it, I need to watch that video again!
 
William Rea said:
Yeah, I hadn't considered RoP but, now you say it, I need to watch that video again!
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It was the beanie hat-wearing in a hot TV studio that made me think of him. RoP posted two or three photos of himself while he was here, all showed him in a beanie hat.
 
William Rea said:
I read it last night. As one of the comments below the article put it, an awful lot of assumptions being made about what constitutes a 'centre' in that article. I don't think I'll be accepting Kettle's assertions on that at face value.

I am also dubious about how much debate and how much re-enactment society there is in political debate these days. It appears that many people don't want to debate much, rather than just throw around rehearsed lines and memes.
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I agree with that. The 70s and early 80s has long since passed :lol:
 
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