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For or against EU military force and why?

EU military force: for or against


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Infinite Chaos

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The European Union needs a military headquarters to work towards a common military force, the Commission president has told MEPs in Strasbourg.Jean-Claude Juncker said the lack of a "permanent structure" resulted in money being wasted on missions. Link.

We'll get the hack comments out of the way first:



  • EU is evil / wonderful
  • Brexit was wonderful / awful thing to happen.
  • Europeans are evil
  • Europeans are lazy and don't pay their way
  • The EU is Putin's / Obama's patsy and well - Ukraine.

So, the discussion is: should the EU develop an EU military force or not and why?

Personally, I have long felt that the European countries should step up to the plate militarily and develop a European defence capability. Europe shoulders a different financial burden to the military burden but in terms of defence, if someone like Putin were to really threaten Europe and the US had left NATO then we have no real capability to defend ourselves.
Question is (for me) should it be an EU military or some other body that comprises EU and non EU nations? I would prefer any European military to be non EU so that it would appeal across boundaries. As such, I am against an EU only military.
 
We'll get the hack comments out of the way first:



  • EU is evil / wonderful
  • Brexit was wonderful / awful thing to happen.
  • Europeans are evil
  • Europeans are lazy and don't pay their way
  • The EU is Putin's / Obama's patsy and well - Ukraine.

So, the discussion is: should the EU develop an EU military force or not and why?

Personally, I have long felt that the European countries should step up to the plate militarily and develop a European defence capability. Europe shoulders a different financial burden to the military burden but in terms of defence, if someone like Putin were to really threaten Europe and the US had left NATO then we have no real capability to defend ourselves.
Question is (for me) should it be an EU military or some other body that comprises EU and non EU nations? I would prefer any European military to be non EU so that it would appeal across boundaries. As such, I am against an EU only military.

Why go to the trouble? Just expand and reinforce the existing EU Battlegroups. :shrug:
 
One of the primary reasons to have a military is to protect your country's sovereignty, and the security of your borders, people, and chosen form of government.

If the countries that make up the EU want to form a United States of Europe, and have a federalist type of E.U./U.S.E. government that supersedes their own independent sovereign powers, then an EU military force makes sense, because at that point there would be no nation of Germany, or France, or Spain, and so on, but rather a United States of Europe where Germany, France, and Spain, et al, become subordinate states within a federalist union of states.

As for a combined military capability to meet the need for the military protection of Europe, that already exists in NATO.
 
We'll get the hack comments out of the way first:



  • EU is evil / wonderful
  • Brexit was wonderful / awful thing to happen.
  • Europeans are evil
  • Europeans are lazy and don't pay their way
  • The EU is Putin's / Obama's patsy and well - Ukraine.

So, the discussion is: should the EU develop an EU military force or not and why?

Personally, I have long felt that the European countries should step up to the plate militarily and develop a European defence capability. Europe shoulders a different financial burden to the military burden but in terms of defence, if someone like Putin were to really threaten Europe and the US had left NATO then we have no real capability to defend ourselves.
Question is (for me) should it be an EU military or some other body that comprises EU and non EU nations? I would prefer any European military to be non EU so that it would appeal across boundaries. As such, I am against an EU only military.

Not only would this be redundant, but it would be counterproductive or even increase the risks we face in this century.

But it is more likely only a ploy to shore up populist support of the EU in this time of collapsing legitimacy. The EU politicians, beoreocrats and lobby are desperate and thrashing about for a raison d'étre.
 
Europe needs to get ready for the departure of the failing superpower which has long lead the way in European security. Not getting ready would be negligence, which the EU often is ok with, but still.
 
We'll get the hack comments out of the way first:



  • EU is evil / wonderful
  • Brexit was wonderful / awful thing to happen.
  • Europeans are evil
  • Europeans are lazy and don't pay their way
  • The EU is Putin's / Obama's patsy and well - Ukraine.

So, the discussion is: should the EU develop an EU military force or not and why?

Personally, I have long felt that the European countries should step up to the plate militarily and develop a European defence capability. Europe shoulders a different financial burden to the military burden but in terms of defence, if someone like Putin were to really threaten Europe and the US had left NATO then we have no real capability to defend ourselves.
Question is (for me) should it be an EU military or some other body that comprises EU and non EU nations? I would prefer any European military to be non EU so that it would appeal across boundaries. As such, I am against an EU only military.

It is political..

Brexit puts doubt in NATO membership.. hence the EU "pro EU military" crowd can push something like this. Fact is, the EU has no real military, it is all voluntary (and few do so), so why the hell does it need an HQ? And why in hell would Brexit matter to the EU military coordination there is.. Britain was always against it (and blocked it more than once).

So I rate this as a Nigel Farrage bull**** idea.. Junker is just trying to push some buttons to get a reaction in the various capitals. Most likely he will get a slap over the fingers for this, as it is not French or German policy (at least at the moment). In the end, it will depend on what happens with NATO now, which is the real question... if NATO starts to fall apart because of Brexit and American meddling (if Trump gets power), then we need an European only military alliance that is for sure.
 
I would like to see the USA pull all troops out of Europe, and let Europe decide it's own future with having a unified EU military.

NATO is a joke, and has been for many years.
 
It is political..

Brexit puts doubt in NATO membership.. hence the EU "pro EU military" crowd can push something like this. Fact is, the EU has no real military, it is all voluntary (and few do so), so why the hell does it need an HQ? And why in hell would Brexit matter to the EU military coordination there is.. Britain was always against it (and blocked it more than once).

So I rate this as a Nigel Farrage bull**** idea.. Junker is just trying to push some buttons to get a reaction in the various capitals. Most likely he will get a slap over the fingers for this, as it is not French or German policy (at least at the moment). In the end, it will depend on what happens with NATO now, which is the real question... if NATO starts to fall apart because of Brexit and American meddling (if Trump gets power), then we need an European only military alliance that is for sure.

And NATO isn't going to fall apart anytime soon as long as Putin remains in power and the proxy warfare between NATO and Russia continues. The two sides (NATO and Putin's Resurgent Russia) benefit from one another's existence, and as long as they both exist simultaneously - neither one is going anywhere anytime soon.
 
Europe needs to get ready for the departure of the failing superpower which has long lead the way in European security. Not getting ready would be negligence, which the EU often is ok with, but still.

It would be negligent to pursue this waste of financial and political capital. There is no improvement to be had out of an EU military, but it would certainly duplicate the use of limited resources, cause a source of crossed wires and increase the risk of war by adding one additional competing power to the already dangerous number.
 
~ Brexit puts doubt in NATO membership..

The UK is pulling out of the EU, not NATO/

~ if NATO starts to fall apart because of Brexit and American meddling (if Trump gets power), then we need an European only military alliance that is for sure.

~ Not getting ready would be negligence ~

A good point, as I have read Trump speak of lesser involvement or even selecting to be involved only with those states paying their full 2%.

~ the need for the military protection of Europe, that already exists in NATO.

5 EU nations are not part of NATO. If they wished to be part of a cross national military, why should they join NATO if they have not wished to do so before?
 
It would be negligent to pursue this waste of financial and political capital. There is no improvement to be had out of an EU military, but it would certainly duplicate the use of limited resources, cause a source of crossed wires and increase the risk of war by adding one additional competing power to the already dangerous number.

If the USA votes Trump, after voting Obama who clearly never gave a damn about Europe, then your concerns become secondary at best. Sure Europe has caught the global illness of combined bankruptcy and incompetence, but that is not an excuse for not trying to do what needs to be done.
 
And NATO isn't going to fall apart anytime soon as long as Putin remains in power and the proxy warfare between NATO and Russia continues. The two sides (NATO and Putin's Resurgent Russia) benefit from one another's existence, and as long as they both exist simultaneously - neither one is going anywhere anytime soon.

It would certainly put considerable strain on the EU unless the EU put a really powerfully persuasive force in place that the Eastern Europeans thought would stand up to Russia. And that would be tough distrust of Germany being so well established.
 
...

5 EU nations are not part of NATO. If they wished to be part of a cross national military, why should they join NATO if they have not wished to do so before?

There are many ways to participate and get protection from NATO without becoming a full signatory to the treaty. Also, there is a huge difference between a mutual defense treaty and what the OP article proposes which is a unified military for the EU, not separate military's from individual EU members that are also sovereign states participating in joint training and coming to each others aid in time of war - A Huge Difference.
 
If the USA votes Trump, after voting Obama who clearly never gave a damn about Europe, then your concerns become secondary at best. Sure Europe has caught the global illness of combined bankruptcy and incompetence, but that is not an excuse for not trying to do what needs to be done.

That would seem true enough. The thing is that an EU military would not be "trying to do what needs to be done". It would more the opposite of what needs to be done.
 
I would like to see the USA pull all troops out of Europe, and let Europe decide it's own future with having a unified EU military.

NATO is a joke, and has been for many years.

The US has forces in Europe for our benefit, not just for the benefit of the European nations. Our country is separated from most of the world by two oceans, and having forces forward deployed is in the best interest of our own national security.
 
That would seem true enough. The thing is that an EU military would not be "trying to do what needs to be done". It would more the opposite of what needs to be done.

This goes hand in hand with the argument: Europe desperately needs to either **** or get off the pot, either come together as one or go their separate ways. Every way you look at it what they have been trying to do these last decades is not working, and there is no reason to think it can work.
 
The US has forces in Europe for our benefit ~ and having forces forward deployed is in the best interest of our own national security.

There are many ways to participate and get protection from NATO without becoming a full signatory to the treaty. Also, there is a huge difference between a mutual defense treaty and what the OP article proposes which is a unified military for the EU, not separate military's from individual EU members that are also sovereign states participating in joint training and coming to each others aid in time of war - A Huge Difference.

What you latterly wrote (about forward deployed forces) has always made greatest sense to me as to why the US pays to keep forces in Europe and elsewhere, there is some benefit to the local site but the greater benefit is to the US and to this end, there is no greater benefit for non NATO European nations to joining NATO than to a more capable European force.

Juncker has pushed for an EU military for years now, focusing initially on the existing briefs these forces engage in but I can see the eventual aim being a mutual defence force and that would make great sense.
 
What you latterly wrote (about forward deployed forces) has always made greatest sense to me as to why the US pays to keep forces in Europe and elsewhere, there is some benefit to the local site but the greater benefit is to the US and to this end, there is no greater benefit for non NATO European nations to joining NATO than to a more capable European force.

Juncker has pushed for an EU military for years now, focusing initially on the existing briefs these forces engage in but I can see the eventual aim being a mutual defence force and that would make great sense.

I would like to make sure that you saw and understand my point regarding the difference between a treaty organization forming within the EU alone, versus what would be required to establish an EU military. Because, your posts seem to conflate the two.
 
The US has forces in Europe for our benefit, not just for the benefit of the European nations. Our country is separated from most of the world by two oceans, and having forces forward deployed is in the best interest of our own national security.

Russia is the least of our threats in a air and ground war, and will be for some time.
 
Specifically, France and Germany will for the first time activate Article 44 of the Lisbon Treaty (also known as the European Constitution). This clause allows certain EU member states "which are willing and have the necessary capability" to proceed with the "task" of defense integration, even if other EU member states disapprove.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8935/european-army

France and Germany, the parents of the EU, have decided from the sound of it. Great idea, should have been done years ago.
 
I would like to make sure that you saw and understand my point regarding the difference between a treaty organization forming within the EU alone, versus what would be required to establish an EU military. Because, your posts seem to conflate the two.

I did, maybe we are talking at cross purposes. What Juncker is proposing is strengthening the structures of the existing EU forces and my suspicion is establishing an EU military. My suspicion is that some in the EU eventually would like something that crosses the purpose of mutual defence and unified force.

My preferred goal would be a treaty organisation across Europe and including non EU nations and that is a different thread possibly.
 
I did, maybe we are talking at cross purposes. What Juncker is proposing is strengthening the structures of the existing EU forces and my suspicion is establishing an EU military. My suspicion is that some in the EU eventually would like something that crosses the purpose of mutual defence and unified force.

My preferred goal would be a treaty organisation across Europe and including non EU nations and that is a different thread possibly.

Okay, I think we're on the same page then. Just the usual misunderstandings that can happen unintentionally.
 
While being opposed to any political or trade union, I support a common miitary effort. But an European army is clearly not what I would think about and I think we must make clear the limitations of European security programs:


What would fail:

* Military alliances were to some extent responsible of the first world war. If tomorrow an European country occupies its neighbor or provoke it in a similar way, will we sacrifice ourselves to defend the wrongdoer? This is the reason why a common army requires a common diplomacy. This is something I am opposed to as we all have different interests, the reason for which I reject the common market and political union. It would also imply a common identity, to make blood sacrifices acceptable, which would require the destruction of our nations, cultures and languages, and a war to unite us, all sorts of perilous and tyrannical enterprises.

* Many European countries only want a stupidly narrow vision of defense, an European bunker. They are fool enough to think the USA will always provide us with the resources our industry needs, while we also do need to secure our materials' sources, and stabilize foreign regions. Fools will make a fool alliance. A modern army needs projection and intervention capacities. France cannot be the only country to have such capacities, and pay for two armies, one for the European bunker and one for projection.

* European leaders refuse to accept the reality of threats around us. They refuse to prepare themselves for Islamic armies, for terrorists with nuclear ICBM stolen from Pakistan or Iran, or for a new cold war with China where resources would slowly become unavailable to us, etc. At best they accept that Russia must be contained. Yet any European army must prepare for those future threats. Fools will make a fool alliance.

* Any attempt to share intelligence between 28 countries will weaken my country because of leaks. If tomorrow we entrust intel to weaker European countries, France will simply become weaker in front of terrorism without gaining much in return. Cooperation is needed but it should be done between most trusted partners only and in a limited way. As for common identity databases, they should not be exclusive to Europe but as global as possible, by inviting as many countries as possible, without excluding that some European countries may refuse. As often with the EU, the EU is an obstacle to more ad hoc and relevant approaches, and sometimes more global ones.

* Bruxelles is the realm of Kafkaian inefficiency and corruption. Anytime I had to face an European administration or European rules or judiciary decisions, they made me want to punch someone in the face. No way I can entrust them the security of my country or military purchases, they would only weaken us.

* Even in the furthest foreseeable future, we will remain dependent of the USA for our security. Even if European countries wanted to, they could not equate the USA for the previously mentioned reasons. And they do not want to, as they are happy to leech from the USA (and the USA are happy to sell us military equipments as a result, and some perks like bases).



What could work:

* Common equipment programs. Especially spatial and anti-missile programs, counter-cyberthreat developments, but also the ships and planes we both need. Without denying that for some programs we have different needs (the eurofighter reflects the bunker mentality I mentioned before), and without ignoring the weight of national industries for some of us. If Italy gives more money to bribe the leaders of European purchase programs, France should part its way rather than sacrifice its industry as a result, and must not be fined for this.

* Border surveillance. I am opposed to the Schengen area, but as long as it exists we need to surveil those borders. This would also include joint forces at the Eastern borders, and answering any Russian land grab in the buffer with an European land grab.

* Security treaties. We should unite our efforts to pressure Muslim countries into deals that make it easier for us to send them their emigrants and refugees back.

* Common nuclear program. Besides of the French ones since we should not surrender this capacity.
 
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The UK is pulling out of the EU, not NATO/

Like it or not, those two for Europeans are very closely linked. Lets put it this way, the UK cant stand being in an economic union/common market with the rest of Europe, but it can be in a military one? It is all about trust I guess..

A good point, as I have read Trump speak of lesser involvement or even selecting to be involved only with those states paying their full 2%.

Thing is spending 2% of your GDP on defense is an idiotic target. You need the defense that is required, no more no less. It could be 2%, or it could be 5% or 1%.. the % number is stupid. Now in Europe's case there are certain issues that we have been battling politically for a long time.. such as our logistical and heavy lift capacity. It is bad, and there has been pushes to improve that. Airbus has a military lift plane they are building, but it is expensive. Of course we cant buy American.. point is to be more independent after all.

But lets look at defense spending in NATO and this magical 2% threshold. Guess who is nr 2 spender in NATO?

Greece... If I told you that Greek military spending in 2016 is under HALF of what it was in 2009.. would you believe me? Well it is.. and yet they are spending over 2%.. got to love those % targets eh?

There is no doubt that military spending has gone down since the crisis hit.. that is only natural. There has to be savings some where.. It is only the eastern European countries that have increased their spending, and that has had its costs...well and the UK but that is marginal. In fact.. the US has cut its military spending since 2009... just saying.
 
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