French prosecutor: Women who planned attack were directed by ISIS

Lafayette · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
Now, isn't it true that police presence has increased in France? I don't know which is worse, a reign of terror, or a military police state. Wasn't there a curfew in some towns in France in the past year, due to the imminent threat of a terrorist attack?

Yes, some local authorities were allowed to install curfews after the Bataclan incident. I know of none that exist today.

Yes, police presence has indeed increased - but in relation to the "threat". Paris hosts a lot of soccer games, and these have to be protected since its dead-easy (excuse the unintended pun) to bring a bomb into a stadium.

But, I can confirm that what preoccupies the French the most is "Who is teaching them radical Islam". It is a fact that most Imams are taught abroad, which how some of the more radical have infiltrated into French mosques. They have been asked to leave, and France is now helping the Muslim heads of sects to establish a school that teaches a religion based upon the Koran.

I live in the boonies, and don't see any sign of heightened police attention. But, this last group making headlines, though planting their bomb-car near the Notre Dame cathedrale, did not live in Paris. (Of course, if I were a terrorist seeking maximum TV-coverage (for which I was willing to surrender my life) I wouldn't want either to explode the empty 15th century church just up the street here in town.)

There are "alerts" but no curfews. People who plant bombs don't work at odd hours after midnight. They explode themselves in broad daylight. So, if in Paris, you will see heightened patrols under the Eiffel Tower. Of course, the bombers wont take the tower down, but they will kill a lot of people - mostly foreigners and not Parisians.

So, yes, the police are on alert. They are much more attuned to "prospective threats" in train-stations were a lot people pass. Ideal targets, that.

Celebrity said:
We have more gun deaths, your people have less control over their lives. C'est la guerre. The guerre on terror.

I don't see how the fact that you have 16 times the probability of dying a gun-related death is "having control over your life". Please do explain that logic.

And you will continue to have more gun-deaths well after ISIS is done and gone. It is part-and-parcel of the American "way of life".

Because Americans cannot seem to understand that nobody "needs" a Kalachnikov and it is dangerous to have them around given the state of present mentalities. I don't know how many times I have been asked how a young boy can bring a rifle into class and slay his school-chums.

You can own a hand gun of a rifle in France, but not a Kalachnikov and, yet, lo and behold, nobody is buying to hang on their living room wall. They are bought by drug-dealers shooting one another to gain territory.

Which is a damn good idea ... !
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Celebrity · Sep 13, 2016

Lafayette said:
I don't see how the fact that you have 16 times the probability of dying a gun-related death is "having control over your life". Please do explain that logic.

No, I didn't mean that. :lol:
Lack of individual autonomy in one respect does not imply full autonomy in another respect. Do you think that the New World Order is coming to save us, or were you just making a jab at America alone? We are the best country in the world. We are going through some changes, like France has, with recent immigration. I cannot say how to stop gun violence at this time. But the immigration agenda seems to be just around the corner.

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
~.................... Let's not nitpick the concept of tyranny....................~ Maybe you

Indeed let's not. There's tyranny and there's "no tyranny", all the rest being non-sensical.

If you want to know whether France is suffering tyranny, the answer is no.

Celebrity · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
Indeed let's not. There's tyranny and there's "no tyranny", all the rest being non-sensical.

If you want to know whether France is suffering tyranny, the answer is no.

Very well, but do you believe immigrants should have the same rights as French citizens? I do.

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
Very well, but do you believe immigrants should have the same rights as French citizens? I do.

So do I. If they abide by the law of the host and fulfil all standards required for obtaining legal status.

Auvergnat · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
If you want to know whether France is suffering tyranny, the answer is no.

Tyranny, no. Yet...

a) The govt legalized mass surveillance (which was already in effect since Sarkozy). This includes all phone communications and all Internet communications' metadata.

b) The govt can now detain someone at his home, indefinitely and without any judiciary decision, trial or evidences. Which has been used against ordinary protesters, without any relation to terrorism (far-left, ecologists, unionists, etc).

c) At least one man has been sentenced for two years of jail (firm) for saying that non-Muslims in France will end up being dominated by Muslims, and accusing a judge of racism. Those hate speech laws are more and more abused, with harsher and harsher sentences for smaller and smaller criticisms, in the name of crime prevention. And they are now being used for sexism: prison to force minds to comply to political correctness.

Let me insist: *I* can be sentenced for two years of jail because of what I write on this forum. Tell me again how France is a free society.

d) You can now get sentenced for seven years for apology of terrorism, or two years for visiting terrorist websites.

e) They attempted to strip individuals from their citizenship.

All things I oppose to: I want to solve our problems with Islam by having less Islam, not by setting up a police state to force a multicultural failure to keep working (more or less). The recent governments, and this leftist one especially, have been terrible for our freedom, and this used to be the last thing convincing me to vote for them rather than the far-right. Since we now only have the choice between repression and repression, at least we should make sure it is used to build a long-term solution, by fighting Islam.

Lafayette · Sep 13, 2016

coldjoint said:
There is no way to stop the terror as long as these areas exist. And there is no denying these zones exist not only in France but all over Europe.

You are exaggerating the problem. The "Muslim Area" you talk about exists only in Brussels, from which 4 of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan came.

The Muslims in France do not live in ghettos. They live in areas renowned for low-rents just like everybody else working at the minimum wage.

Lafayette · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
We are the best country in the world.

Sez you.

With 50 million Americans incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold since 1965, that remark is a complete fallacy.

Poverty - Number in Poverty and Poverty Ratio.jpg

That's the combined population of, say, California and Illinois.

Wakey, Wakey, Rumplestiltskin ...
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Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Lafayette said:
You are exaggerating the problem. The "Muslim Area" you talk about exists only in Brussels, from which 4 of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan came.

The Muslims in France do not live in ghettos. They live in areas renowned for low-rents just like everybody else working at the minimum wage.

The whole perception that you're responding to (if the term "perception" can even be used:roll

is a regurgitation of a Faux News item of some time ago and others like it. Dripping with the dishonesty and general ignorance that marks such "outlets".

To be fair, Faux News actually apologized afterwards, possibly in the realization that egg all over the face doesn't profit from adding more of it.

Clearly a preference not shared by some, last not least on here, that don't mind to what level of foolishness their rehashing of this crap, along with the prevarication that it necessitates, raises them.

Auvergnat · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
The whole perception that you're responding to (if the term "perception" can even be used:roll is a regurgitation of a Faux News item of some time ago and others like it. Dripping with the dishonesty and general ignorance that marks such "outlets".

Lafayette said:
You are exaggerating the problem. The "Muslim Area" you talk about exists only in Brussels, from which 4 of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan came.

He was mostly right.

I grew up there. They are not exclusively Muslim areas, far from it, but they are dominated by Muslims. The social codes are Muslim, the culture is Muslim, the shops sell Arab products, from delicacies to propaganda books, and labels are in French and Arab. The shops owned by white people have all been burnt.

The police does not come, or only quickly with an assault squad at 6am, or they are local and well-known policemen who stay at the periphery and are openly insulted by kids. When the firemen or an ambulance come, they are commonly thrown rocks. Most of young girls do not dare to wear sexy clothes, they rather choose the worse possible sportswear to be as unsexy as possible and avoid problems. You must not be Jew, you must not be gay, you must not criticize Islam, you must not be a sexy woman, or you will risk being assaulted, possibly to death. Racism against white people is normal there.

This is the reality for millions of people in France, sorry to disturb your daydreaming. Pfff.

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Auvergnat said:
Tyranny, no. Yet...

a) The govt legalized mass surveillance (which was already in effect since Sarkozy). This includes all phone communications and all Internet communications' metadata.

b) The govt can now detain someone at his home, indefinitely and without any judiciary decision, trial or evidences. Which has been used against ordinary protesters, without any relation to terrorism (far-left, ecologists, unionists, etc).

c) At least one man has been sentenced for two years of jail (firm) for saying that non-Muslims in France will end up being dominated by Muslims, and accusing a judge of racism. Those hate speech laws are more and more abused, with harsher and harsher sentences for smaller and smaller criticisms, in the name of crime prevention. And they are now being used for sexism: prison to force minds to comply to political correctness.

Let me insist: *I* can be sentenced for two years of jail because of what I write on this forum. Tell me again how France is a free society.

d) You can now get sentenced for seven years for apology of terrorism, or two years for visiting terrorist websites.

e) They attempted to strip individuals from their citizenship.

All of which is far from desirable, yet making a logical leap of

All things I oppose to: I want to solve our problems with Islam

where the measures are designed, effectively or not, to counter terrorism and prevent it where possible, provides a mindlessly speculative conjecture that is worthy of no other storage than the trash bin.

Unless you are able to corroborate with something of more meat than paranoid perception the stance that the current problem is one of Islam exclusively. It's pretty much like curing cancer by obliterating the patient on the grounds that the patient is the cancer. Which would be utterly stupid.

having less Islam, not by setting up a police state to force a multicultural failure to keep working (more or less). The recent governments, and this leftist one especially, have been terrible for our freedom, and this used to be the last thing convincing me to vote for them rather than the far-right. Since we now only have the choice between repression and repression, at least we should make sure it is used to build a long-term solution, by fighting Islam.

and this is where your suppositions fall right off the grid. From false dichotomies to slippery slope arguments, from appeal to probability to begging the question (not to mention argumentum ad nauseam and the many paths beyond) the list of logical fallacies that you make a base for your conjectures invalidates them before you even start.

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Auvergnat said:
He was mostly right.

By your book.

The shops owned by white people have all been burnt.

Instances? Links?

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

Lafayette said:
You are exaggerating the problem. The "Muslim Area" you talk about exists only in Brussels, from which 4 of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan came.

The Muslims in France do not live in ghettos. They live in areas renowned for low-rents just like everybody else working at the minimum wage.

You are denying there are zones designated in France because Muslims live there? You are lying. They are all over Europe.

No-go zones are Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are largely off limits to non-Muslims due to a variety of factors, including the lawlessness and insecurity that pervades a great number of these areas. Host-country authorities have effectively lost control over many no-go zones and are often unable or unwilling to provide even basic public aid, such as police, fire fighting and ambulance services, out of fear of being attacked by Muslim youth.

Muslim enclaves in European cities are also breeding grounds for Islamic radicalism and pose a significant threat to Western security.

Europe's no-go zones are the by-product of decades of multicultural policies that have encouraged Muslim immigrants to create parallel societies and remain segregated from — rather than become integrated into — their European host nations.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
The whole perception that you're responding to (if the term "perception" can even be used:roll is a regurgitation of a Faux News item of some time ago and others like it. Dripping with the dishonesty and general ignorance that marks such "outlets".

To be fair, Faux News actually apologized afterwards, possibly in the realization that egg all over the face doesn't profit from adding more of it.

Clearly a preference not shared by some, last not least on here, that don't mind to what level of foolishness their rehashing of this crap, along with the prevarication that it necessitates, raises them.

Those zones exist. The story you are referring to was about Birmingham in the UK. Very disingenuous of you.

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

Liberals Said There Were No MUSLIM ‘No-Go Zones,’ But Now There’s PROOF

Read more: Liberals Said There Were No MUSLIM 'No-Go Zones,' But Now There's PROOF

If you’ll remember just a few months ago, liberals and the media were mocking conservatives for claiming that there were police “no go zones” in Europe from the influx of Muslims.

Well, we can start demanding apologies after this newspaper reports that a Muslim refugee camp in France is so violent, police have declared it a “no go zone.”

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

The shocking reality of 'no-go' zones: France has no control over Muslim-populated neighborhoods

The shocking reality of 'no-go' zones: France has no control over Muslim-populated neighborhoods - Europe - International - News - Catholic Online

You see the link is from a Catholic website. You can call them liars because they won't kill you.

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Auvergnat said:
He was mostly right...............

Daniel Pipes appears to disagree with you (I don't care about the poster that re-floats this crap, seeing how I never respond to him).

You know Daniel Pipes, right?

I had an opportunity today to travel at length to several banlieues (suburbs) around Paris, including Sarcelles, Val d'Oise, and Seine Saint Denis. This comes on the heels of having visited over the years the predominantly immigrant (and Muslim) areas of Brussels, Copenhagen, Malmö, Berlin, and Athens.

A couple of observations:

For a visiting American, these areas are very mild, even dull. We who know the Bronx and Detroit expect urban hell in Europe too, but there things look fine. The immigrant areas are hardly beautiful, but buildings are intact, greenery abounds, and order prevails.

These are not full-fledged no-go zones but, as the French nomenclature accurately indicates, "sensitive urban zones." In normal times, they are unthreatening, routine places. But they do unpredictably erupt, with car burnings, attacks on representatives of the state (including police), and riots.

Having this first-hand experience, I regret having called these areas no-go zones.

danielpipes.org

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

Later, Fox News issued four separate on-air apologies for reporting the story about no-go zones incorrectly, including one in which anchor Julie Banderas offered a blanket apology to "the people of France and England":

Over the course of this last week we have made some regrettable errors on air regarding the Muslim population in Europe — particularly with regard to England and France.

This applies especially to discussions of so-called 'no-go zones,' areas where non-Muslims allegedly aren't allowed in, and police supposedly won't go.

To be clear, there is no formal designation of these zones in either country, and no credible information to support the assertion there are specific areas in these countries that exclude individuals based solely on their religion.

There are certainly areas of high crime in Europe, as there are in the United States and other countries — where police and visitors enter with caution. We deeply regret the errors, and apologize to any and all who may have taken offense, including the people of France and England.

effectively telling all the idiots still surfing on the previous crap even today "liar liar (not just our) pants on fire".

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
Later, Fox News issued four separate on-air apologies for reporting the story about no-go zones incorrectly, including one in which anchor Julie Banderas offered a blanket apology to "the people of France and England":
effectively telling all the idiots still surfing on the previous crap even today "liar liar (not just our) pants on fire".

Two of those links are dated after the Fox apology. One from August 2016. You know who the liar is?

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

Chagos said:
Daniel Pipes appears to disagree with you (I don't care about the poster that re-floats this crap, seeing how I never respond to him).

You know Daniel Pipes, right?

danielpipes.org

Funny you would listen to Pipes you have tried to discredit him a few times. Disingenuous hypocrisy.

coldjoint · Sep 13, 2016

So Fox News is sued by the Paris mayor for saying there were no-go zones. She could have stayed closer to home.

The irony, and the farce, go much further. Fox drew Hidalgo’s ire for saying that France in general and Paris in particular have numerous Muslim-run “no-go zones” that the police fear to enter. Fox did say that, but why would Hidalgo limit her suit to Fox? She could also sue Valeurs Actuelles, a major weekly newsmagazine, that warned against venturing into the Paris suburb of Trappes. “You will be spotted … and be stripped and smashed,” it quoted Mohammed Duhan, a local police official in a story about Islamic fundamentalists imposing an alternative society.

Or she could have sued TF1, France’s most popular TV channel, for its 90-minute documentary on the Muslim gangs in Paris’s no-go zones. Or France’s TV3, for its documentary on no-go zones.

Or Hidalgo could have sued the blue chip think tank, L’Institute Montaigne, for publishing Suburbs of the Republic, a 2,200-page report that stated Parisian suburbs are becoming “separate Islamic societies” increasingly ruled by Sharia law and inclined toward radical Islam.

As you see in France there are people saying those places exist. Credible sources. The article goes on to say the same thing I said about Fox and Birmingham in the UK. So who is stretching the truth here?

Fox’s biggest embarrassment over no-go zones didn’t involve France at all, but Birmingham in the U.K. A Fox interviewee — terrorism expert Steve Emerson — made a huge gaffe in characterizing all of Birmingham as Muslim when it’s only 22% Muslim.

Lawrence Solomon: Paris?s Muslim ?no-go? zones are no joke | Financial Post

Chagos · Sep 13, 2016

I can tell from the flurry of posts that someone is frenzied. Pretty useless effort though, since he knows I don't read them, let alone ever respond to them or him.

:mrgreen:

coldjoint · Sep 14, 2016

Chagos said:
I can tell from the flurry of posts that someone is frenzied. Pretty useless effort though, since he knows I don't read them, let alone ever respond to them or him.

:mrgreen:

All I did is prove you wrong about no go zones with reliable sources. If you expounded on more I could prove you are wrong more often

Lafayette · Sep 14, 2016

coldjoint said:
You are denying there are zones designated in France because Muslims live there? You are lying. They are all over Europe.

There were once white no-go zones in Harlem, but I don't see you mentioning them.

Yes, Muslim Immigrants (aside from the plutocrat oil nations) are amongst the poorest in Europe. They therefore seek low-cost housing when migrating, and it is perfectly natural that they create a "local community due to the commonality of their language" in many countries. This is not a societal phenomenon - it is current throughout Europe. (The Quartier Asiatique or "Asian Quarter", also called Triangle de Choisy or Petite Asie, is the largest commercial and cultural center for the Asian community of Paris.)

Maybe you did not have the experience, but I am a descendant from a European immigrant community and lived in a similar context in New England. These "local language communities" are typical of where immigrants find lowest-cost living-quarters all over Europe. The same phenomenon exists/existed for the Cubans in Florida, or some French-canadians in New England, or Italians in Pennsylvania.

So, yes, there are Muslim radicals in many of these communities in Europe. But, there are also members of those communities who are "police informants" and keep tabs on radical Muslim preachers. I know this for a fact in France, because it has been reported in the press.

It will please you to know, therefore, that just this week, the French government and leaders of the principle Muslim groups in France have agreed that Imams (preachers) must graduate from and be accredited by a school established by the Muslim Community to train them. The intent obviously is to prevent radical muslims from founding "mosques" where they preach.

But, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? (Aside from the fact that you know very little about immigrant communities ...)

Lafayette · Sep 14, 2016

Auvergnat said:
I grew up there. They are not exclusively Muslim areas, far from it, but they are dominated by Muslims. The social codes are Muslim, the culture is Muslim, the shops sell Arab products, from delicacies to propaganda books, and labels are in French and Arab. The shops owned by white people have all been burnt.

And this does not happen elsewhere in Europe with other communities? The Quartier Asiatique (Asian Quarter), also called Triangle de Choisy or Petite Asie, is the largest commercial and cultural center for the Asian community of Paris. For the moment, no suspicious movements exist there - but YOU NEVER KNOW!!!

Migrants who want to become immigrants collect themselves because of language similarity. It is a common social phenomenon.

That the Muslim Radicals should hide in these communities is perfectly understandable. Where else should they go?

But does that make these communities, wherever they exist, "dangerous"? No, it doesn't. They are a perfectly natural social phenomenon in all countries who receive migrants that may become immigrants. (There is a difference between "migrant" and "immigrant" - so get acquainted with it.)

I live in the boonies of France and, yet, there is a Muslim community here with their own shops and own mosque. Nobody is afraid of them, they are peaceful people - like you and me.

That "some" have become radicalized is indeed true. But "that some" is a small minority percentage of the population - about 3100 in France. (From Le Monde recently, here.)

You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill ...
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