BREAKING: The Next French Infantry Rifle Is German –

MickeyW · Sep 1, 2016

VanceMack said:
Its really rather ironic that there are so many people jumping in and apparently wasting their time to stomp their feet about what a waste of time this thread is. WTF is wrong with you that you feel compelled to comment on something that apparently you don't care about?

They can't wait to bash this poster........that's what it's all about.

American said:
Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep!

VanceMack said:
H&K makes outstanding weapons, but affordable? They must be giving the French a sweetheart offering.

That was my thought.

MickeyW · Sep 1, 2016

PeteEU said:
Once again you dont understand how a common market works and how the EU works. You do know that Washington decides a hell of a lot in your common market over there in the US.. right?

Sure.. that is why the US had to redo the latest airplane tanker bids 3 times when congress stepped in.. and finally awarded it to Boeing over Airbus.

I understand the common market.

Boeing makes better planes.

PeteEU · Sep 1, 2016

MickeyW said:
I understand the common market.

Boeing makes better planes.

And Airbus makes what?

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 1, 2016

zyzygy said:
Yes it's really bad over here in Belgium. It makes one yearn for the halcyon days of WW2. No problems over there in the USA.

You mean those days in which Americans came over, lost many lives but freed Europe occupied by other Europeans? Those days? Or right after that when the Iron Curtain dropped and we protected you while you recovered from all the damage inflicted upon yourselves? And since?

While I believe it occurred and condemn it, for instance, your Belgium made it a law, made it illegal to deny the Holocaust. Stupid to deny this provably sad event in human history, but it should not be against the law to be stupid...

Just think of having to jail all the folks that will vote for Hillary despite her criminality and incompetence, would simply be a monumental task and beyond affordable. Yet that is just one stupidity... think if we had jailed all those who stupidly voted for Obama... twice... of course there would be quite a bit of overlap in those stupid that would be jailed.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 1, 2016

PeteEU said:
LOL your own choices.. now that is funny.. You have very little influence in the US.. the country is run by rich corporations who do what they want. "We" is not the people, it is the few hundred who run the big companies. Funny how the US government is defending a known tax dodger... with lies at that. Claiming the EU is going after American companies, when most of the cases of state aid are against European industries and companies..

While I will not disagree with the reality of what you are asserting, at least its some anonymous American bureaucrat instead of some foreign bureaucrat that is making decisions for my country, know what I mean? And we can rein that in if enough of us get the gumption and so decide... which is why many are going to break with the established big government/big corporation way and vote for a guy that seems against all that.

That being said...

Hat tip to Great Britain for sticking it to the EU bureaucrats... I was pleasantly astonished.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 1, 2016

PeteEU said:
And Airbus makes what?

Seems obvious enough to me. I don't know what better means to you in Denmark, and I like Airbus jetliners just fine. But better in English allows for Airbus to make a great plane and yet for Boeing to make one that is even greater... that would be the better part.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 1, 2016

german hick said:
at least this is complete bull****.. who is "they" - all Germans? I think in general a Frenchman is much more nationalistic and proud than a German.

Where do you know all this things from? May be there is corruption, we cann not proove, but elsewhere is surely corruption, too. I like the idea of the EU because it gives us peace.

You already had peace. We, the USA, guaranteed that.

I have only lived in Europe, my most extended trip three months bicycling from London, ferry cross the channel to Belgium down through France to the Mediterranean across the Rivera through Monaco over to Italy then mainly trains from there back up through Germany, Denmark the Netherlands back to Belgium over to England again. Got to see a lot of Europe fairly up close, just not enough time in any one spot... but loved just about all of it. A lot of Parisians were a pain, as usual, tho. Nearly ODed on all the great venues for art, what a smorgasbord great foods, beers, wines, cheeses and pasteries. Good place to go on holidays, especially extended if possible. This trip back in 82 I grew rather fond, even though it was somewhat inconvenient to cash travelers checks in the cambio houses and banks, enjoyed the variety in currencies, the pound, the franc, the lira, mark, krone...

Best friends I made on the trip were a group of super nice Germans while at a hostel in my city of choice, Firenza, Florence. Couple invited me to visit in Hamelin where the father of one was the brewmaster [brewmeister?] of the beer company [ have lost their stein since, a pity] set almost magically practically in his backyard... well, just beyond his backyard, but you could see the tower stack through the trees from the living room balcony. Wonderful time.

Anyhow, I think Europe stands better individual rather than more universal, that your differences added up to the greater whole. An outsider's opinion, of course, but sometimes its good to at least imagine from the outside looking in.

I do sort of live in a glass house over here as we have too much money, too much made legal/conveniently ignored corruption going on here in the USA. But somehow we make the nation work as a fairly functioning single unit with 50 different legs moving, not always together but never very far apart in direction. Its like capitalism, some countries just have a knack, for example we do, and some countries it seems will never get it right and they perhaps should pursue their own separate, and designed to suit themselves, manner of accomplishing national and, if their country promotes such, individual's goals.

Its actually why many of us feel the need to get back to a system of true federalism. In that way we, the American states, can work freely/independently together. An American historically astute [ hopefully ], centipede... with only the forward gear.

MickeyW · Sep 1, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
You mean those days in which Americans came over, lost many lives but freed Europe occupied by other Europeans? Those days? Or right after that when the Iron Curtain dropped and we protected you while you recovered from all the damage inflicted upon yourselves? And since?

While I believe it occurred and condemn it, for instance, your Belgium made it a law, made it illegal to deny the Holocaust. Stupid to deny this provably sad event in human history, but it should not be against the law to be stupid...

Just think of having to jail all the folks that will vote for Hillary despite her criminality and incompetence, would simply be a monumental task and beyond affordable. Yet that is just one stupidity... think if we had jailed all those who stupidly voted for Obama... twice... of course there would be quite a bit of overlap in those stupid that would be jailed.

Mega Dittos!

Gaugingcatenate said:
While I will not disagree with the reality of what you are asserting, at least its some anonymous American bureaucrat instead of some foreign bureaucrat that is making decisions for my country, know what I mean? And we can rein that in if enough of us get the gumption and so decide... which is why many are going to break with the established big government/big corporation way and vote for a guy that seems against all that.

That being said...

Hat tip to Great Britain for sticking it to the EU bureaucrats... I was pleasantly astonished.

Fully agree. :thumbs::thumbs:

Gaugingcatenate said:
Seems obvious enough to me. I don't know what better means to you in Denmark, and I like Airbus jetliners just fine. But better in English allows for Airbus to make a great plane and yet for Boeing to make one that is even greater... that would be the better part.

Yep.

Gaugingcatenate said:
You already had peace. We, the USA, guaranteed that.

I have only lived in Europe, my most extended trip three months bicycling from London, ferry cross the channel to Belgium down through France to the Mediterranean across the Rivera through Monaco over to Italy then mainly trains from there back up through Germany, Denmark the Netherlands back to Belgium over to England again. Got to see a lot of Europe fairly up close, just not enough time in any one spot... but loved just about all of it. A lot of Parisians were a pain, as usual, tho. Nearly ODed on all the great venues for art, what a smorgasbord great foods, beers, wines, cheeses and pasteries. Good place to go on holidays, especially extended if possible. This trip back in 82 I grew rather fond, even though it was somewhat inconvenient to cash travelers checks in the cambio houses and banks, enjoyed the variety in currencies, the pound, the franc, the lira, mark, krone...

Best friends I made on the trip were a group of super nice Germans while at a hostel in my city of choice, Firenza, Florence. Couple invited me to visit in Hamelin where the father of one was the brewmaster [brewmeister?] of the beer company [ have lost their stein since, a pity] set almost magically practically in his backyard... well, just beyond his backyard, but you could see the tower stack through the trees from the living room balcony. Wonderful time.

Anyhow, I think Europe stands better individual rather than more universal, that your differences added up to the greater whole. An outsider's opinion, of course, but sometimes its good to at least imagine from the outside looking in.

I do sort of live in a glass house over here as we have too much money, too much made legal/conveniently ignored corruption going on here in the USA. But somehow we make the nation work as a fairly functioning single unit with 50 different legs moving, not always together but never very far apart in direction. Its like capitalism, some countries just have a knack, for example we do, and some countries it seems will never get it right and they perhaps should pursue their own separate, and designed to suit themselves, manner of accomplishing national and, if their country promotes such, individual's goals.

Its actually why many of us feel the need to get back to a system of true federalism. In that way we, the American states, can work freely/independently together. An American historically astute [ hopefully ], centipede... with only the forward gear.

Stellar post.

german hick · Sep 2, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
You already had peace. We, the USA, guaranteed that.

Yes, and I think most Europeans are very grateful for that.
But leave us a little bit of pride. Europeans don´t want to be the little brother for all times.

May be I´m leaving the topic a little bit

Beyond all similar values Americans and Europeans as a whole have some cultural differences.
For example the spying affair - call it naive but we don´t want to be spyed on by our American friends. If we say that, there comes a little bit of arrogance over the atlantic. The "don´t be childish, thats the way the world works" way. That makes a lot of Europeans wanting a strong Europe that is not for all times and in every way dependent on his big Brothers good will.

PeteEU · Sep 2, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
While I will not disagree with the reality of what you are asserting, at least its some anonymous American bureaucrat instead of some foreign bureaucrat that is making decisions for my country, know what I mean? And we can rein that in if enough of us get the gumption and so decide... which is why many are going to break with the established big government/big corporation way and vote for a guy that seems against all that.

That being said...

Hat tip to Great Britain for sticking it to the EU bureaucrats... I was pleasantly astonished.

Amazing that people still believe that the EU is some sort of "uber state" or something that control whole countries... oh well the damage to the UK is done and they will have to live with the consequences. Ironically, the UK cant even fill its own "bureaucratic" ministry set up to leave the EU, because no one wants to work for it. As one bureaucrat said.. it is a career killer.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 2, 2016

PeteEU said:
Amazing that people still believe that the EU is some sort of "uber state" or something that control whole countries... oh well the damage to the UK is done and they will have to live with the consequences. Ironically, the UK cant even fill its own "bureaucratic" ministry set up to leave the EU, because no one wants to work for it. As one bureaucrat said.. it is a career killer.

Yeah yeah yeah... sounds like sour grapes to me. I applaud GB for making the proper leap to save their sovereignty, that ability to make and abide by a set of rules of its own choosing that fit its individuals.

So, are you saying that the rules that the EU make for the nations in the EU are just suggestions? That nobody has to follow those rules? Or perhaps nobody does follow those rules? Maybe you might define more precisely what you mean by your general term, "uber state" and we can go from there to see what you are actually on about.

Auvergnat · Sep 2, 2016

PeteEU said:
Amazing that people still believe that the EU is some sort of "uber state" or something that control whole countries...

They control our currency, trade, borders.

But they also significantly intervene in immigration (rulings imposing familial immigration to us, which effectively prohibits us to halt Muslim immigration, forced Eastern immigration, prohibition of ethnic statistics required to evaluate the consequences of immigration), fiscal rules (VAT, corporate taxes), civil life and freedom (rulings regarding religious freedom, veils, personal data trade, ISP surveillance, etc), agriculture (what we eat, how to structure our rural areas), research (they now centralize big chunks of European research spendings and impose pseudo-excellence policies seen by many as harmful), education, diplomacy and defense. They also have propaganda offices tasked with the creation of an European citizenship in order to reshape our future identities.

And of course none of this is submitted to democracy since there is no European political life, consensus or transparency. Unless you believe that making un-informed monkeys drop a paper every five years for the same coalition that has ruled for the past forty years based on a mere brand is democracy.

So what do YOU think the EU is?

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 2, 2016

german hick said:
Yes, and I think most Europeans are very grateful for that.
But leave us a little bit of pride. Europeans don´t want to be the little brother for all times.

May be I´m leaving the topic a little bit
Beyond all similar values Americans and Europeans as a whole have some cultural differences.
For example the spying affair - call it naive but we don´t want to be spyed on by our American friends. If we say that, there comes a little bit of arrogance over the atlantic. The "don´t be childish, thats the way the world works" way. That makes a lot of Europeans wanting a strong Europe that is not for all times and in every way dependent on his big Brothers good will.

I am all for being prideful in one's own nation... at the same time, until you folks "over there" start paying for all your own defense costs, either to us or supplying your own independent of us... and go for a sufficiently long period without causing the troubles you folks did last century, then maybe we can talk as equal brothers, eh?

Hate to have to bring it up, as I think all is pretty much forgiven... but certainly it is not to be forgotten, that last century. We here in the Western hemisphere have caused a lot less damage worldwide than have our counterparts in the Eastern hemi. The sheer amount of misery, death and destruction wrought in Europe, Asia and Africa in the last two centuries dwarfs anything going on over here... so we have justification in being perhaps a bit skeptical and having kept an arm of guidance over the shoulder of our brothers in Europe.

As for spying, I pretty much believe every country is spying on pretty much every other country of consequence, minimum. I do not doubt that it goes much too far much too often. But there have been no global wars as a consequence. The last, the Cold War, was fought fairly painlessly and won by figuring out a good grand strategy up front then sticking to that plan until communism collapsed of its own... with prodding by the West, mainly, I think we can all agree, by the US.

PeteEU · Sep 2, 2016

Auvergnat said:
They control our currency, trade, borders.

Who the EU?

Currency. If you are a member of the Eurozone, then the ECB "controls" the currency as any other national bank. Membership of the Eurozone is voluntary for the original members of the EEC/EU and for new members of the EU, only if they can meet economic conditions.

Trade. Well duh, it is a common market and trade system. There would be no point of a common market if outside countries can play member nations against each other, and get their goods in via one port cheaper than another port.

Borders. LOL hell no. If the EU controlled the borders, then there would be no "immigrant wave problem". Each country has the duty to protect their own external border and each country has their own rules on who can enter their country from outside the EU.

But they also significantly intervene in immigration (rulings imposing familial immigration to us, which effectively prohibits us to halt Muslim immigration, forced Eastern immigration, prohibition of ethnic statistics required to evaluate the consequences of immigration)

No, all false. There is no forced eastern immigration, prohibition of ethnic statistics is a long European tradition and is a national issue, and as for halting "Muslim immigration"... again a national issue, and of course that whole human rights issue.

fiscal rules (VAT, corporate taxes)

False. VAT is a national issue for the most part. Corporate taxes is solely a national issue. Where the EU does meddle is when there is discrimination...

civil life and freedom (rulings regarding religious freedom, veils, personal data trade, ISP surveillance, etc),

Not the EU.. that is the European Human Rights Court.. not part of the EU.

agriculture (what we eat, how to structure our rural areas),

And? that has been around since the start. You do know the reasoning for this right?

research (they now centralize big chunks of European research spendings and impose pseudo-excellence policies seen by many as harmful),

False on so many fronts. Yes the EU as an organisation contributes considerably to research and development, but it does not dictate anything on a national level.

education, diplomacy and defense.

False on education.
False on defense.
On diplomacy it is only if the EU members agree to come together on the issue. Case in point Iraq.. the EU could not agree, hence there was no EU stance.

They also have propaganda offices tasked with the creation of an European citizenship in order to reshape our future identities.

HAHAHA what a load of bull****. You are an EU citizen if you are born in a country that is a member of the EU. It has been like that for decades... better put on your tinfoil hat again I think. Much of your comments are conspiracy theory crap and not based on facts.

Auvergnat · Sep 2, 2016

General answers:

Your point was that the EU is not a state. Whether our adhesion is "voluntarily" does not change anything (but what "voluntarily" means when traitorous governments decide for us or do not say things as they are?)
Yes it's a common free market, and it's the very problem: trade overlaps with almost every democratic question, which renders the concentration of powers inevitable. The US federal state was "only" about trade and diplomacy, look at the result now.
Some of my concerns indeed result from CJEU's interpretations (not ECHR's for the ones mentioned). Nevertheless there is no neutral interpretation of the law/treaties/human rights and those should be national questions.
Sometimes things can go in my direction but it is irrelevant: those should be national questions.
Research spendings. Since we have to pay the EU spendings, we no longer have this money for other spendings, especially overlapping ones.
European citizenship is only a legal status so far, they are trying to build an identity with it.

Details:
- Borders: European treaties forbid us to regulate our national borders.
- Eastern immigration: forced upon us because they are "European citizens".
- Ethnic statistics: RACE directive
- Forced familial immigration: Directives 2004/38 + 2003/86, see also decision 52014DC0210.
- VAT: Directive 2006/112
- Corporate taxes: many directives, exemplified by the recent EU ruling against Apple's corporate taxes in Ireland.
- Islamic veil in enterprises: EUCJ case C-157/15
- Personal data trade: directive 1995/46 + recent case + upcoming changes
- ISP surveillance: directive 2006/24
- Education: directive 2005/36
- Defense: directive 2009/81

You learned a lot today. You're welcome.

PeteEU · Sep 2, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
Yeah yeah yeah... sounds like sour grapes to me. I applaud GB for making the proper leap to save their sovereignty, that ability to make and abide by a set of rules of its own choosing that fit its individuals.

Which it wont be able too... but hey! In the EU, they were equals.. now they are foreigners which the EU can discriminate against all it wants.

So, are you saying that the rules that the EU make for the nations in the EU are just suggestions?

Nope.

That nobody has to follow those rules? Or perhaps nobody does follow those rules? Maybe you might define more precisely what you mean by your general term, "uber state" and we can go from there to see what you are actually on about.

The rules set by the EU or laws are the law as soon as they are published by the commission. The member nations have to incorporate said law into national as soon as possible. That is how member nations have agreed to. If member nations agree on say on regulating the height of cars across the EU... then the EU will make the regulations based on those wishes.

However the point has always been, the EU laws are limited to a few areas of overall law. For example, justice, taxes, social issues and such are barely touched by EU regulations/law. Same is education, R&D, and so on and so on. People tend to mix up the anti-discriminatory principle of the EU (and all member nations.. thats where it came from after all) with some sort of over reach by the EU and dictation of law by the EU. It aint. Same goes with human rights, which is not an EU area, but an external treaty that has been around longer than the EEC/EU and is based on.. British law.

For example. In Spain there was 2 different inheritance tax schemes... one for citizens and one for non citizens. Problem was that this is discriminatory. So if a Brit was a registered resident in Spain, then because he was not a citizen he would have to pay considerably more in inheritance tax than a Spaniard. That law was squashed by the EU and Spain has to pay back billions. Was the law squashed based on some EU tax law regulation? No.. it was squashed because it was discriminatory in nature against citizens of other members of the EU.

PeteEU · Sep 2, 2016

Auvergnat said:
Details:
- Borders: European treaties forbid us to regulate our national borders.

No it does not. You can regulate as much as you want, as long as you dont prevent the freedom of movement of EU citizens. So by all means ban all Nigerians..

- Eastern immigration: forced upon us because they are "European citizens".

Yes they are EU citizens, just as British are and French are. No one forced anyone, the British could have vetoed these eastern european countries membership. It did not.

- Ethnic statistics: RACE directive

Hog wash. RACE is a directive that goes against racial and ethnic discrimination. This principle has been part of most EU members countries nation law for decades. You know the reason for this directive? To force places like Romania and Bulgaria to live by the same rules that the French and British have been living with for decades..

- Forced familial immigration: Directives 2004/38 + 2003/86, see also decision 52014DC0210.

Err what? Have you even read the directives? The first one is about freedom of movement and settlement of EU citizens. It lays down specific rules in fact.. The second one is based on a treaty that the UK and others set up almost a decade BEFORE the EEC/EU was created. In other words, it was already part of national law long before the directive was written... in most countries... except of course those of the former Soviet Union which this directive was made for basically.

- VAT: Directive 2006/112

Yes and? You read the directive?

- Corporate taxes: many directives, exemplified by the recent EU ruling against Apple's corporate taxes in Ireland.

LOL hore****. Corporate taxes are a national issue. If the EU had any influence there, then Ireland would have had its tax rate raised long ago, and all tax havens under member nations control would now be non-existent as a tax haven.

- Islamic veil in enterprises: EUCJ case C-157/15

Ah what?

- Personal data trade: directive 1995/46 + recent case + upcoming changes

And you are against protecting the privacy of people now? You really want 27 different rules on privacy within the EU?

- ISP surveillance: directive 2006/24

What? You do know it was annulled right?

- Education: directive 2005/36

LOL so you are against recognizing skills from other countries?

- Defense: directive 2009/81

So you are against countries coordinating procurement of military and security materials?

Auvergnat · Sep 2, 2016

- The EU force us to accept Nigerians if they have family in France.
- The RACE directive also bans ethnic statistics (except to prove discrimination).

For all points: the question is not whether those things are good or not (I often disagree with your interpretations though). The point is that the EU does interfere with almost all topics. They prove that this pseudo-"mere trade union" is already a pervasive state

Was the law squashed based on some EU tax law regulation? No.. it was squashed because it was discriminatory in nature against citizens of other members of the EU.

Yeah, and murders do not kill, electromagnetic forces do when the atoms of the bullet collide with the atoms of the victim's heads.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 3, 2016

PeteEU said:
Which it wont be able too... but hey! In the EU, they were equals.. now they are foreigners which the EU can discriminate against all it wants.

Nope.

The rules set by the EU or laws are the law as soon as they are published by the commission. The member nations have to incorporate said law into national as soon as possible. That is how member nations have agreed to. If member nations agree on say on regulating the height of cars across the EU... then the EU will make the regulations based on those wishes.

However the point has always been, the EU laws are limited to a few areas of overall law. For example, justice, taxes, social issues and such are barely touched by EU regulations/law. Same is education, R&D, and so on and so on. People tend to mix up the anti-discriminatory principle of the EU (and all member nations.. thats where it came from after all) with some sort of over reach by the EU and dictation of law by the EU. It aint. Same goes with human rights, which is not an EU area, but an external treaty that has been around longer than the EEC/EU and is based on.. British law.

For example. In Spain there was 2 different inheritance tax schemes... one for citizens and one for non citizens. Problem was that this is discriminatory. So if a Brit was a registered resident in Spain, then because he was not a citizen he would have to pay considerably more in inheritance tax than a Spaniard. That law was squashed by the EU and Spain has to pay back billions. Was the law squashed based on some EU tax law regulation? No.. it was squashed because it was discriminatory in nature against citizens of other members of the EU.

Hey, these posts this thread are about the best posts I ve ever viewed from you... so hat tip.

However, I cannot accept that the thing that will be detrimental is that the EU will no longer be their "friends" and these former friends and partners will detrimentally discriminate against them in any truly consequential manner. Perhaps GB's trade with the US will pick up, they being one of our chief allies and partners historically. France since our Revolution, not so much...and well, Germany has been our opponent several times and the EU itself, I think its going bust long term so why not cast off from the sinking ship already being on a suitable lifeboat, an island isolated across the channel from the rest of a continental Titanic.

You have yet to flesh out what you meant by "uber state", and with the denial that laws made by the EU are not just suggestions it seems to revert back to more uber-ishness in its perception.

While not an expert, nor intending to be one so will let others that may be argue the fine points, the EU has more control than I would want over my local decision making ability. But understand that I also believe that in our case, DC has too much control and am counted in the column of those wanting to take back more of the power from our national government here in the states.

PeteEU · Sep 3, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
However, I cannot accept that the thing that will be detrimental is that the EU will no longer be their "friends" and these former friends and partners will detrimentally discriminate against them in any truly consequential manner.

There is no doubt that the UK and EU will be friends, but the issue here is basic. The UK wants to leave but at the same time wants all the rights and benefits of the EU. Those two are incompatible. The UK wants to discriminate against specific EU member states, but expects the EU not to discriminate against its citizens... that is arrogant and frankly xenophobic bordering racist.

The problem with the UK, especially the Brexit crowd, is that they think they are a world power still and they matter. They dont, not in the way that Brits think they do.

Perhaps GB's trade with the US will pick up, they being one of our chief allies and partners historically.

Why should it? What does the UK have to offer the US? Remember the US and UK need to do a trade deal, and what benefits does the US have in opening up to UK imports.. the few that there are? The US is the big one in the negotiation.. which means the UK will be the one bending over and taking it up the... for any deal. Or the US could just say.. hey works for us at the moment, so why change? The only reason that the US had a special relationship with the UK (and this has been stated many times by many presidents) was that the UK was the door to Europe for the US. Now that door is shutting, so why bother with the UK?

France since our Revolution, not so much...and well, Germany has been our opponent several times and the EU itself, I think its going bust long term so why not cast off from the sinking ship already being on a suitable lifeboat, an island isolated across the channel from the rest of a continental Titanic.

What sinking ship? Anti-EU people keep saying the EU is sinking and yet provide no proof, let alone an alternative. It seems that the Anti-EU people love discrimination, having to have visas to travel on vacation and so on. Why is that?

You have yet to flesh out what you meant by "uber state", and with the denial that laws made by the EU are not just suggestions it seems to revert back to more uber-ishness in its perception.

Uber state is what the anti-EU people define it.. a super state (Uber is gaming slang for superior). Now I dont think it is.. far from it. To me it is an organisation where member nations come together in cooperation over various issues in a common market. It benefits everyone more than it hurts.

While not an expert, nor intending to be one so will let others that may be argue the fine points, the EU has more control than I would want over my local decision making ability. But understand that I also believe that in our case, DC has too much control and am counted in the column of those wanting to take back more of the power from our national government here in the states.

You would be wrong. The US federal system has FAR more control over local decisions. In fact in the EU there is a principle of as many decisions has to happen at local level... oh and by the way, that is in stark contrast to the UKs position where most decisions are still done in London (relatively speaking).

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 4, 2016

PeteEU said:
There is no doubt that the UK and EU will be friends, but the issue here is basic. The UK wants to leave but at the same time wants all the rights and benefits of the EU. Those two are incompatible. The UK wants to discriminate against specific EU member states, but expects the EU not to discriminate against its citizens... that is arrogant and frankly xenophobic bordering racist.

You will have to be more specific in your accusation of xenophobia. Nations have not only a reason but also a duty to protect its culture and citizens from those that it decides. Not doing so is suicidal to a culture.

PeteEU said:
The problem with the UK, especially the Brexit crowd, is that they think they are a world power still and they matter. They dont, not in the way that Brits think they do.

Again, for me to counter, I would have to know what the hell you are talking about, can you be a bit more specific in your ramblings? GB is not a super power, but they certainly are still a world power. To assert otherwise would be to advertise how unworldly or how prejudiced one is.

PeteEU said:
Why should it? What does the UK have to offer the US? Remember the US and UK need to do a trade deal, and what benefits does the US have in opening up to UK imports.. the few that there are? The US is the big one in the negotiation.. which means the UK will be the one bending over and taking it up the... for any deal. Or the US could just say.. hey works for us at the moment, so why change? The only reason that the US had a special relationship with the UK (and this has been stated many times by many presidents) was that the UK was the door to Europe for the US. Now that door is shutting, so why bother with the UK?

The US is the big one in almost every negotiation with the exception of China. How is the door shutting? We will continue trade with the EU and with GB, to think otherwise would be silly.

PeteEU said:
What sinking ship? Anti-EU people keep saying the EU is sinking and yet provide no proof, let alone an alternative. It seems that the Anti-EU people love discrimination, having to have visas to travel on vacation and so on. Why is that?

Just your aging demographics and not replacing yourselves with much other than immigrants that do not want to maintain much in the way of European heritage is just one way. And when we begin to make your folks pay for your own defense, which you will have to take out of your social spending, with your older folks retiring and your young folk less inclined to have children, how will you support yourselves? Your militaries, alone or together, do not inspire much confidence. You are weak and getting weaker.

PeteEU said:
Uber state is what the anti-EU people define it.. a super state (Uber is gaming slang for superior). Now I dont think it is.. far from it. To me it is an organisation where member nations come together in cooperation over various issues in a common market. It benefits everyone more than it hurts.

I understand what uber stands for. I do think the EU is an uber state. Whereas you say they do not much interfere in taxes, on the thread about Apple and Ireland, you pretty much made the case that Ireland cannot legally do what they did and wanted to do regarding enticing Apple to its shores. Didn't fit within the uber EU guidelines of what Ireland did... and, btw, I see you are all about blaming Apple and not Ireland for not adhering to the uber rulings of the uber state, the EU.

PeteEU said:
You would be wrong. The US federal system has FAR more control over local decisions. In fact in the EU there is a principle of as many decisions has to happen at local level... oh and by the way, that is in stark contrast to the UKs position where most decisions are still done in London (relatively speaking).

Prove your assertion that the federal government here has more control than locales. States here have the freedom to entice business with all sorts of incentives, whereas Ireland does not have that degree of sovereignty... apparently.

PeteEU · Sep 4, 2016

Gaugingcatenate said:
You will have to be more specific in your accusation of xenophobia. Nations have not only a reason but also a duty to protect its culture and citizens from those that it decides. Not doing so is suicidal to a culture.

"Culture" changes over time..... the culture of the UK say 1800 is very very much different than it is today. Some fundamentals stay of course but many aspects change. Defending a "culture" is often a code word for white supremacists and other types of racists. We live in a free society, no one is taking your personal family traditions and saying you cant do them.

Again, for me to counter, I would have to know what the hell you are talking about, can you be a bit more specific in your ramblings? GB is not a super power, but they certainly are still a world power. To assert otherwise would be to advertise how unworldly or how prejudiced one is.

Thing is, many British conservatives think the UK is a super power of sorts... and that is the problem. My point is, the last time the UK was a world power, it had vast resources at its disposable, both men and materials. It has a large part of the world industry and it was the defender of trade routes. Now days not so much on any of those. It imports from 3rd party countries most of the resources it needs, its military and specifically its navy is a shadow of what it once was, and no one is afraid of the UK.. basically it cant bully its way across the world. Let me ask you this.. is the UK a bigger power than France or Germany?

The US is the big one in almost every negotiation with the exception of China. How is the door shutting? We will continue trade with the EU and with GB, to think otherwise would be silly.

The US has very few trade deals around the world. You will continue to trade with the EU and UK, but along WTO guidelines, not a specific trade deal.

Just your aging demographics and not replacing yourselves with much other than immigrants that do not want to maintain much in the way of European heritage is just one way. And when we begin to make your folks pay for your own defense, which you will have to take out of your social spending, with your older folks retiring and your young folk less inclined to have children, how will you support yourselves? Your militaries, alone or together, do not inspire much confidence. You are weak and getting weaker.

Aging population is a problem and then again it is not. The US population is aging as well, just not at the same rate. Your population is not growing much and the growth there is, is in the non white population. As for military power.. we are past those days where military power meant anything. Now they could come back of course, but at the moment it is economic power that matters. If we still did trade deals and things like this based on military power, then the US would have forced trade deals across the planet.. it does not. Quite the opposite.

I understand what uber stands for. I do think the EU is an uber state. Whereas you say they do not much interfere in taxes, on the thread about Apple and Ireland, you pretty much made the case that Ireland cannot legally do what they did and wanted to do regarding enticing Apple to its shores. Didn't fit within the uber EU guidelines of what Ireland did... and, btw, I see you are all about blaming Apple and not Ireland for not adhering to the uber rulings of the uber state, the EU.

Ireland broke Irish law in giving Apple this deal. Ireland is free to do its tax system as it wants (pretty much), but it can not single out a company for special treatment.. that is state aid and that is illegal according to Irish and EU law. That is what happened in the Apple case. NO ONE else could get the same deal as Apple. It was not part of the tax law but a special exception for Apple only.

Prove your assertion that the federal government here has more control than locales. States here have the freedom to entice business with all sorts of incentives, whereas Ireland does not have that degree of sovereignty... apparently.

Easy enough.. you have federal taxes no? You have federal police no? You have federal rules that dont have to go through local state legislators to get approved no? Ireland has far bigger freedom than a US state.

Auvergnat · Sep 4, 2016

PeteEU said:
We live in a free society, no one is taking your personal family traditions and saying you cant do them.

France was a rational and largely atheist country where few people were taking religion seriously, now we have to seriously listen to idiots who obey dogmas from a seventh century illiterate pedophile slaver, rapist and murderer. Religious satire was a custom, now everyone will ostracize you if you dare to mock or criticize Islam, despite how disgusting its principles are and how many problems it poses. And if you do this as a public figure, you can expect to spend the rest of your life under police protection after all media will have spit on you for criticizing the glorious Koran.

France's gastronomy includes a large part of pork gastronomy, which has now mostly disappeared from collective meals in corporations and others, even when alternatives are offered. Because a few percent of idiots have been told by a butcher from the 7th century that their omnipotent deity will be angry if they eat pork, and everyone decided we should do everything possible to encourage them in their faith. Hail stupidity!

Millions of people in France live in neighborhoods dominated by Muslims, where it is dangerous to be Jew, to be gay, to wear a skirt or to criticize Islam. We didn't have a christian party since decades, but we now have a Muslim party.

I am sick of stupid proselyte barbarians and their incessant exigences and provocations. I want to get back my rational and progressive country where we were not divided in two groups by a death cult. I refuse to see their fascism gain further ground and our freedom shrink further.

The EU imposes us to accept familial immigration, it imposes us Eastern immigration. And to the attractive UK it imposes a very unreasonable number of yearly immigrants, most of them concentrated in an already prohibitive London where real estate is limited, too many of them undesirable.

Thing is, many British conservatives think the UK is a super power of sorts...

No, they simply think they can live well without the EU, as they were doing not so long ago, and as many countries weaker than them successfully do. Swiss, Canada and Australia are not in the EU and they do very fine while being less powerful than France or the UK.

And you know what is the most disgusting about the EU attitude in the Brexit? They want to force their emigration onto the UK. We have no interest doing so, it will not boost our enterprises, it will make us lose precious educated workers, the only point is to attempt to colonize the UK, hoping that our emigrants will force British minds. This European imperialism is revolting.

PeteEU · Sep 4, 2016

Auvergnat said:
France was a rational and largely atheist country where few people were taking religion seriously, now we have to seriously listen to idiots who obey dogmas from a seventh century illiterate pedophile slaver, rapist and murderer.

Let me stop you there. France is a catholic country and always has been. The tradition in France over centuries has been Catholic dogma. That since WW2.. well more like the 1960s, been a tendency to go towards a more secular country, does not change the fact that the traditions that France have are all based on the Catholic faith.

My own country, also a very secular state has its traditions based on the Christian church (mostly protestant, with some dabs in Catholic faith as well). No one is forcing us to change those traditions. We might add some for what ever reason.. like Black Friday.. I mean wtf? Or Halloween.. WTF!?.. those damn Muslim.. no wait that aint Muslim traditions... but we do not change our existing traditions and culture. We still hold Christmas on the 24th, not the 25th.. we still hold holidays on midsummer.. a christian but also pagan day. We dont celebrate El Eid .. we might one day, but it is not a national holiday or a day off.. Do we allow people to celebrate it? Of course, just as we all Americans to celebrate the 4th of July in Denmark, or Norwegians their Independence day from us... that is their tradition and does it mean that our society and culture is some what harmed by letting them celebrate it?

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 4, 2016

PeteEU said:
"Culture" changes over time..... the culture of the UK say 1800 is very very much different than it is today. Some fundamentals stay of course but many aspects change. Defending a "culture" is often a code word for white supremacists and other types of racists. We live in a free society, no one is taking your personal family traditions and saying you cant do them.

Yes, culture changes over time... but the people, if in control of their own sovereignty, in the culture itself should determine and be in harmony, in agreement with the changes. Should not be a mandate from a group of bureaucrats from somewhere else.

PeteEU said:
... My point is, the last time the UK was a world power, it had vast resources at its disposable, both men and materials. It has a large part of the world industry and it was the defender of trade routes. Now days not so much on any of those. It imports from 3rd party countries most of the resources it needs, its military and specifically its navy is a shadow of what it once was, and no one is afraid of the UK.. basically it cant bully its way across the world. Let me ask you this.. is the UK a bigger power than France or Germany?

GB still is a world power, as I stated earlier. Their influence is far beyond the small amount of the planet they inhabit as well as their small population.

Since we speak the same language and our historical foundations come from GB, I would say yes, they are a bigger power as they are much allied to us. I would much rather have Great Britain on my side than either the French, who cannot be depended upon, or the Germans that have been our opponents in war far more often than our allies. Though I do appreciate the sacrifice of 57 men in Afghanistan. But by way of comparison, GB lost 454, the US 2,356 The German military is about a third the size of the Brits and France has about 50k more troops, but they have rarely been a good ally.

PeteEU said:
The US has very few trade deals around the world. You will continue to trade with the EU and UK, but along WTO guidelines, not a specific trade deal.

The whole trade landscape will change with the election of Trump.

PeteEU said:
Aging population is a problem and then again it is not. The US population is aging as well, just not at the same rate. Your population is not growing much and the growth there is, is in the non white population. As for military power.. we are past those days where military power meant anything. Now they could come back of course, but at the moment it is economic power that matters. If we still did trade deals and things like this based on military power, then the US would have forced trade deals across the planet.. it does not. Quite the opposite.

Yes, the US has been afflicted by the liberal attitudes that have left us with declinging birthrates... but we are not yet in the dire position of you Euros.

As to milirary power, we are not even close to being past those days. That is poor perception on your part. It may be understandable as you have grown up in a time where you have always been under the umbrella of a very good super power, the US. We not only protect you but to do so mainly at American taxpayer expense and at the cost of mainly American lives. You have been free to grow your economies, especially as we helped rebuild both European friend and foe after WW2. The fact that we won both WW2 and the Cold War and yet are a good enough country not to FORCE trade deals, as you put it, is only through the magnanimity of the American people. Thank us very much.

PeteEU said:
Ireland broke Irish law in giving Apple this deal. Ireland is free to do its tax system as it wants (pretty much), but it can not single out a company for special treatment.. that is state aid and that is illegal according to Irish and EU law. That is what happened in the Apple case. NO ONE else could get the same deal as Apple. It was not part of the tax law but a special exception for Apple only.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Ireland is appealing the decision by the EU. But the uber state says they must collect the tax, no matter what Ireland says. That is uber stateness in its naked form. “Do it, just do it as we said you must.” That simply is uber state, denial expected but rejected.

PeteEU said:
Easy enough.. you have federal taxes no? You have federal police no? You have federal rules that dont have to go through local state legislators to get approved no? Ireland has far bigger freedom than a US state.

So every law passed by the EU affecting the EU has to be approved by each local legislature, municiple board, etc in Ireland? I think not. Also, yes, we have federal income taxes and you folks have a VAT and the EU uses that as well as a percentage of GDP and import duties to fund your uber state in Brussels. So?