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Apple face HUGE tax bill

Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

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The Financial Times reports that the bill will be for billions of euros, making it Europe's biggest tax penalty.

Apple and the Irish government are likely to appeal against the ruling.
Under EU law, national tax authorities are not allowed to give tax benefits to selected companies - which the EU would consider to be illegal state aid. Link.
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Fair few other companies will be quaking in their boots if this bill is enforced on Apple. Who else would you prefer to see pay up unpaid taxes first?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Fair few other companies will be quaking in their boots if this bill is enforced on Apple. Who else would you prefer to see pay up unpaid taxes first?
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This is the type of stuff that makes it easy to see why England voted for brexit. If a country isn't allowed to decide how it wants to raise revenue or craft tax policy to get new business what's the point of being a country at all.
 
Crovax said:
This is the type of stuff that makes it easy to see why England voted for brexit. If a country isn't allowed to decide how it wants to raise revenue or craft tax policy to get new business what's the point of being a country at all.
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Wth are you talking about? Britain voted its own law that would enable it to tax offshore revenues of its registered corporations.
 
When a global corporation doesn't pay taxes for years, the bill is destined to be in the billions. The financial anarchy of the past three decades could finally be having a reckoning.
 
Gaztopian said:
When a global corporation doesn't pay taxes for years, the bill is destined to be in the billions. The financial anarchy of the past three decades could finally be having a reckoning.
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We have the laws for good reason. But we are not happy with the outcome. Now we must change the laws without harming the Country.
 
Gaztopian said:
Wth are you talking about? Britain voted its own law that would enable it to tax offshore revenues of its registered corporations.
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Maybe you should read it again, my comment had nothing to do with England's laws.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Fair few other companies will be quaking in their boots if this bill is enforced on Apple. Who else would you prefer to see pay up unpaid taxes first?
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About time, but I fear that it will only be a couple hundred million they will have to pay.

And as for other companies... all of them. So many profitable mult-national companies have been getting illegal aid over the decades and it has to stop. It prevents competition in the market.
 
gunner said:
You got that wrong: Apple should repay Ireland €13bn, European Commission rules - Apple should repay Ireland €13bn, European Commission rules - BBC News
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Well at the time of the posting, the estimates was 100 million to 17 billion. Being a pessimist and knowing how Apple does its business.. then I sided with a low ball number. I was wrong. Doubt they will pay it though, as Ireland being the lap dog it is, has already stated it will fight the ruling... which yes is bizar considering the amount that is owed.
 
Crovax said:
This is the type of stuff that makes it easy to see why England voted for brexit. If a country isn't allowed to decide how it wants to raise revenue or craft tax policy to get new business what's the point of being a country at all.
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Because offering the biggest companies tax breaks not available to other companies is anti-competitive, destroys any semblance of a free-market and is providing an open door to widespread political corruption practices. One might have thought conservatives would be in favour of protecting an open, competitive capitalist system. One might be wrong.
 
Boy the ruling is damaging to Apple and which ever baffon in Ireland that approved the deal..

The IRS in the US, should start their own investigation, but as far as I have heard the US will also fight this ruling... for the love of god....

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State aid: Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple worth up to ?13 billion

Specifically, they endorsed a split of the profits for tax purposes in Ireland: Under the agreed method, most profits were internally allocated away from Ireland to a "head office" within Apple Sales International. This "head office" was not based in any country and did not have any employees or own premises. Its activities consisted solely of occasional board meetings. Only a fraction of the profits of Apple Sales International were allocated to its Irish branch and subject to tax in Ireland. The remaining vast majority of profits were allocated to the "head office", where they remained untaxed.
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Effective tax rate of 0.005% in 2014?!

And it is not like Ireland knew that this was wrong.. both Ireland and Apple stopped the arrangement last year.. if it was legal, then why stop it?
 
joG said:
We have the laws for good reason. But we are not happy with the outcome. Now we must change the laws without harming the Country.
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Again with the vague 'we'. Are you claiming to be Irish? Otherwise, who is the 'we' to which you refer? And which country do you wish to protect from harm?
 
Andalublue said:
Again with the vague 'we'. Are you claiming to be Irish? Otherwise, who is the 'we' to which you refer? And which country do you wish to protect from harm?
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Irony is.. the "we".. lets say the Irish, have lost out on 13+ billion in tax income, an income that could have helped big time during the crisis and afterwards. Wonder how the Irish government is going to spin this to the Irish people...

.. no we dont want the 13 billion because the EU is being mean against us... you know the EU, who exposed us in giving illegal state aid with tax payer money to one of the worlds most profitable companies... while only generating a couple of thousand jobs in Ireland at present... most of which are new hires since Apples size in Ireland only started to grow after the EU started their investigation..
 
Andalublue said:
Because offering the biggest companies tax breaks not available to other companies is anti-competitive, destroys any semblance of a free-market and is providing an open door to widespread political corruption practices. One might have thought conservatives would be in favour of protecting an open, competitive capitalist system. One might be wrong.
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So you think a big centralized govt that destroys national sovereignty is a small govt free market solution? Maybe you should figure out what a conservative is before you trying to figure out what conservative would support or dont support.
 
Crovax said:
So you think a big centralized govt that destroys national sovereignty is a small govt free market solution?
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Who mentioned small government? Since when have Conservatives effected any small government policies?

Maybe you should figure out what a conservative is before you trying to figure out what conservative would support or dont support.
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Well, according to your argument, anti-competitive practices are compatible with free market capitalism.
 
Andalublue said:
Who mentioned small government? Since when have Conservatives effected any small government policies?
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Since always

Well, according to your argument, anti-competitive practices are compatible with free market capitalism.
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I never said anything of the such, either you are extremely ignorant or you are just trolling.
 
Wasn't there just a thread about Apple whining about US taxes and tax rates?

And now they owe $13+ bil overseas?
 
Andalublue said:
Again with the vague 'we'. Are you claiming to be Irish? Otherwise, who is the 'we' to which you refer? And which country do you wish to protect from harm?
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No. It is the American law that needs changing.
The Irish seem to have no sovereignty in their tax affairs. At least they cannot pass laws and make commitments on taxes. This is rather interesting, as it would affect all member states and would contradict a hypothesis of fiscal sovereignty by which the Bundesverfassungsgericht (German constitutional court) deemed the Lisbon and Maastricht Treaties legal. They assumed that Germany's Bundestag remained in control of fiscal policy and law without which it clearly stated the Treaties would be illegal.
It also means that international companies cannot depend on commitments made by EU countries. This is not only in this specific tax issue but especially visible. It means that companies from around the world must calculate a risk premium that hitherto seemed unnecessary. In other words, to negotiate and decide on an investment the capitals are a waste of time on many levels and as planing based on what the local government says cannot be relied upon the companies have a planning risk and must assume a given project will earn less than it would, were the country sovereign. Investments will only make sense, if they yield more.

So, yes, the Irish have a problem. But it is theirs to worry about. But it does not make much sense to have as large a government, if a country is not sovereign. The same is true for all the countries in the EU.
 
If a country, say Ireland in this instance, wants to attract a large corporation to create jobs and revenues, long term, in their jurisdiction then they should have the power and ability to offer whatever incentives that they feel give them the competitive edge over other jurisdictions.

IMHO, that's why the EU is wanting to fine Apple and Ireland - to punish Ireland for doing what was on the best interest of Ireland.

We do the same thing here in the US, in that the individual states have the power to create whatever incentives they feel would attract businesses to open in their jurisdiction to create jobs and revenue for the state, including special tax rates, land deals, public money used as financing for the company, and many other incentives.

I see nothing, as far as what's been discussed here, that justifies being upset with Apple or Ireland. Maybe that's because I'm neither a Progressive, or Socialist, or believe in false and forced equality of outcome schemes like those the EU seems to love.

It's been stated already in this thread, but at the risk of repeating others, this is a perfect example of why the UK probably made the right choice with Brexit.
 
joG said:
No. It is the American law that needs changing.
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What has that to do with this decision?

The Irish seem to have no sovereignty in their tax affairs. At least they cannot pass laws and make commitments on taxes.
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Yes, they can, they just can't do it to favour an individual company. They could give tax breaks to a sector, if they wish. That's perfectly compatible with EU regulations and happens across the EU.
 
Andalublue said:
What has that to do with this decision?

Yes, they can, they just can't do it to favour an individual company. They could give tax breaks to a sector, if they wish. That's perfectly compatible with EU regulations and happens across the EU.
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The trigger seems to have been the large amount of cash sitting un-taxed in corporate accounts that was not repatriated. At least that seems to be one of the factors. But you are right that the EU is now looking to exert power over members in order to establish fait accompli, while member states are nervous after the Brexit vote and does not want to further rock the boat. Also it might be a power grab ie move by Luxembourg, who needs to get rid of competition within the EU as it is losing some of its local advantages and a move to deflect present criticism from Luxemburg and Junker. But that is hard to tell at this point and only conjecture.

PS: Nope. The Irish do not have sovereignty, if they cannot treat different situations differently, when that seems required. In any event, the Irish government should be liable for damages to the contract partners, if it did break the law.

PPS: You say that the Irish were not allowed to act as they did. Do you have a reference, where one can see the applicable law or statute?
 
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Beaudreaux said:
If a country, say Ireland in this instance, wants to attract a large corporation to create jobs and revenues, long term, in their jurisdiction then they should have the power and ability to offer whatever incentives that they feel give them the competitive edge over other jurisdictions.
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Not if it hurts other companies in said country.. which it has. Do you know how many Apple employees there are.. at least on paper in Ireland? 4000 and a huge chunk of them "appeared" suddenly after the EU opened up an investigation 5 years ago.

IMHO, that's why the EU is wanting to fine Apple and Ireland - to punish Ireland for doing what was on the best interest of Ireland.
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How on earth is this in the best interest of Ireland? 4000 low paying jobs (mostly call centre jobs) that only recently poped up? Paying next to no taxes on 10s of billions in income, where as other companies in the same industry had to pay full taxes or far more than Apple (in %)? Who pays for this lack of income? Oh yea, the people of Ireland.

We do the same thing here in the US, in that the individual states have the power to create whatever incentives they feel would attract businesses to open in their jurisdiction to create jobs and revenue for the state, including special tax rates, land deals, public money used as financing for the company, and many other incentives.
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Yes and it is just as wrong.. it is basically corruption on a massive scale and spits in the face of the free market.

It's been stated already in this thread, but at the risk of repeating others, this is a perfect example of why the UK probably made the right choice with Brexit.
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Yes, so now the UK can screw over its own taxpayers even more... right?
 
PeteEU said:
Not if it hurts other companies in said country.. which it has. Do you know how many Apple employees there are.. at least on paper in Ireland? 4000 and a huge chunk of them "appeared" suddenly after the EU opened up an investigation 5 years ago.



How on earth is this in the best interest of Ireland? 4000 low paying jobs (mostly call centre jobs) that only recently poped up? Paying next to no taxes on 10s of billions in income, where as other companies in the same industry had to pay full taxes or far more than Apple (in %)? Who pays for this lack of income? Oh yea, the people of Ireland.



Yes and it is just as wrong.. it is basically corruption on a massive scale and spits in the face of the free market.



Yes, so now the UK can screw over its own taxpayers even more... right?
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It is again interesting how you distort the things to fit your ideology. But we have seen that with regards the Ukraine as well.

Here, it is Ireland that was doing, what sovereign countries can do, if they are sovereign. If they cannot determine their taxes, they cannot determine their fiscal policy. That is the most central piece of national sovereignty = They are not sovereign.

It is also not for outsiders to determine, what is "in the best interest of Ireland". But it is quite clear that without the tax and regulatory flexibility Ireland would have not made the jump in development it did, the business would have gone elsewhere and Irish girls would probably still be cleaning floors in foreign countries like they did before. Ireland is at a natural competitive disadvantage that requires additional adaptivity and they showed how to do it.

But the EU needs to show its power and the large countries are envious of the commerce. So Ireland will bleed.
 
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