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'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot report

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Serenity said:
You know, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 anti‑war protests and the demonstrations on February 15, 2003 in London still remain the largest political demonstration in the city's history.

It fell on deaf ears. Blair never listened and the invasion of Iraq began just over a month later. It’s difficult to accept that such a united display of people power on Feb,15 could have proven to be so ineffectual and was so easily disregarded and ignored.
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People power is ultimately no match for the British political elites desire to preserve the 'special relationship' with the US . A relationship which has allowed us to punch above our weight internationally for decades and has made Britain at least seem as Great as it once was to them.

Cynical maybe but the cold hard realpolitik nonetheless :(
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Chagos said:
and Blair remains true to form, emitting a crocodile's tears apology to then embark on his usual path of prevarication.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/tony-blair-deliberately-exaggerated-threat-from-iraq-chilcot-report-war-inquiry

He must be truly delusional by now if he still believes he can talk himself into being "one of the great good ones" in history.

He'd do it again and said as much.
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I have liked your post at #5 Chagos. No need to delete it unless you see my approval as a kiss of death. Blair was and is a self-regarding lightweight, ill-suited to any position of responsibility. The lesson is vote for posturing lefties at one's peril.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Sweden said:
I have liked your post at #5 Chagos. No need to delete it unless you see my approval as a kiss of death. Blair was and is a self-regarding lightweight, ill-suited to any position of responsibility. The lesson is vote for posturing lefties at one's peril.
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That you believe Blair was any kind of lefty demonstrates how out-of-touch you are. He began as a centrist social democrat and then turned into the British equivalent of a German Christian Democrat with strong neo-con leanings. That he rolled over and played Bush's catamite tells you that there's nothing remotely left-wing about him.

I listened to his half-hour grilling by John Humphries on the Today programme on R4 this morning. A more rotten display of self-pity and self-justification is hard to remember. Politically speaking there's really no major points of difference between him and Cameron. They are both centre-right corporate shills and appalling excuses for Prime Ministers.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Being proud of having done the job one was sent to (do) has little to nothing to do with how necessary or indeed counter-productive the job itself was or is. If one wants to get into the somewhat cynical business at all of weighing own casualties (not to mention the collaterals) against ultimate success, the final achievement determines whether investments made (losses incurred) were worth it.

When the conclusion is reached (and it has been reached here most succinctly) that the whole effort was not only premature but, as a consequence of that, completely counter-productive to the envisaged goal, then in the money business you do a write-off, in the war business you leave graveyards where you've been and have to build some where you're at home.

And those that enabled the whole failure either go to another club (if they're sports managers), or another board (if they're business managers). Heck, they even go to Brussels as a less drastic alternative to having them shot outright.

All operations, once finalized, require taking stock and that's been done here.

Raising the question of "served what?"

Those that really pay are those that stay in the field or return from there (if they return) with faculties severely impaired. To take pride in having been thus abused amounts to abandoning all reality and should not be conflated, let alone confused, with any evaluation over how honourably or not one has served.
 
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Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Sweden said:
I have liked your post at #5 Chagos. No need to delete it unless you see my approval as a kiss of death. Blair was and is a self-regarding lightweight, ill-suited to any position of responsibility. The lesson is vote for posturing lefties at one's peril.
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There will be no lesson learned ever, if myopia born from own political leaning continues to make the distinction that there be good scumbags and bad scumbags and the quality be assessed on account of their political colour.

That in this context Bliar was not a lefty at all is totally irrelevant. Lying shysters are lying shysters and what camp spouted them is of no importance.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Chagos said:
There will be no lesson learned ever, if myopia born from own political leaning continues to make the distinction that there be good scumbags and bad scumbags and the quality be assessed on account of their political colour.

That in this context Bliar was not a lefty at all is totally irrelevant. Lying shysters are lying shysters and what camp spouted them is of no importance.
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Good point. Wish I'd made it. There are lying shysters on all sides, just look at the Brexit campaign.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Andalublue said:
Good point. Wish I'd made it. There are lying shysters on all sides, just look at the Brexit campaign.
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........................why I align myself with none, salute no flag, sing no national anthem.

Any more and for decades.

Been there, got sold down the river as much as put up the creek without paddle, have the T-shirt, seen the movie and played in it.

F... the whole lot of 'em. :2mad:
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Chagos said:
........................why I align myself with none, salute no flag, sing no national anthem.

Any more and for decades.

Been there, got sold down the river as much as put up the creek without paddle, have the T-shirt, seen the movie and played in it.

F... the whole lot of 'em. :2mad:
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I'm with Manuel Vicent
Yo, a lo mío

I'll mind my own business!

You know what I mean? From now on, to me, this is a formula of homemade salvation which is beginning to spread among many demoralised citizens. The result of the general election has provided enough material for any on the left to feed their anthropological pessimism and has further exacerbated their self-destructive instincts.

The young radicals hoped the polls would back his happy enthusiasm. They believed that their charismatic leaders were ready to end the Popular Party's corruption and do away with the old ossified politics. Given the internal fracas that generated the obvious and inexplicable loss of their vain dreams, many of (Podemos') followers have started retreating to winter quarters. I'll mind my own business, they say.

Socialist supporters who did bite the bullet to keep voting for the party, now find that from within it have come fratricidal struggles against their leader, despite having managed to save the party from the worst predictions. You know what I mean? I'll mind my own business, repeated many fed-up members.

The collapse of the stock market, the sinister apocalyptic omens about the future of Europe, terrorist attacks, the millions of refugees, moral, economic and political instability that has been installed in our life makes even people of the right use the slogan, I'll mind my own business. Indeed, against any planetary disaster there is always a home remedy, a form of personal salvation. Basically minding my own business means recovering my individuality. There is no giving up or escaping by the back door, but it's about taking cover so that no one can destroy those things that are left to me that are clean and strong, with which to survive with some dignity.
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I might have lost a nuance or two in the translation, but I think you'll know what I mean. Know what I mean?
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Andalublue said:
I'm with Manuel Vicent
Yo, a lo mío



I might have lost a nuance or two in the translation, but I think you'll know what I mean. Know what I mean?
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Sí , yo sé lo que me dices. Y sí, sé lo que me está diciendo también.

(Yes to both his and your meaning).
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I think you're all Idealists to be honest; we were never going to get a UN mandate. Saddam had invaded neighbours, broke international laws and murdered his own people. We spent the decade after Desert Storm bombing his regime, I think people forget that Desert Fox was only 5 years before the invasion and we launched desert Fox because Saddam ignored United Nations Security Council resolutions and interfered with United Nations Special Commission inspectors.
The occupation and the aftermath should have been handled better but the removal of Saddam was justified on the last 20 years alone.

I also disagree with the notion that the Iraq invasion caused the mess Iraq finds itself in now. ISIS elements had been pushed out of Iraq during the awakening. What has helped ISIS is the inaction on the part of the West in Syria. We let the entire region descend into chaos which has allowed ISIS to recruit, train and take territory. If the West and intervened earlier in Syria we could of potentially saved thousands of lives. But I guess we will have to wait for that UN mandate, heaven forbid our leaders make the tough choices.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
I think you're all Idealists to be honest;
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Never thought I'd see the day where my particular cynicism would be interpreted as idealism. But thanks anyway.:mrgreen:

we were never going to get a UN mandate. Saddam had invaded neighbours, broke international laws and murdered his own people.
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I seem to recall that a UN mandate was given on those counts. Resulting in what you outline with (bolded below)
We spent the decade after Desert Storm bombing his regime, I think people forget that Desert Fox was only 5 years before the invasion and we launched desert Fox because Saddam ignored United Nations Security Council resolutions and interfered with United Nations Special Commission inspectors.
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I also recall that last bit of interpretation being rejected by the very people that were supposedly interfered with. Notably Hans Blix just two weeks beofre the invasion got under way.
The occupation and the aftermath should have been handled better but the removal of Saddam was justified on the last 20 years alone.
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Where one can cite plenty of reasons, then and today, justifying the removal of Saddam, developments of the last 20 years are not it.
I also disagree with the notion that the Iraq invasion caused the mess Iraq finds itself in now. ISIS elements had been pushed out of Iraq during the awakening.
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What you choose to ignore is that the very same were formed as direct result of the invasion. Having played no role of either note or even visibilityin Iraq before it. This sounds pretty much like rewarming the old corpse of that claim of Saddam and those elements (AQ, to be precise) having been in cahoots.
What has helped ISIS is the inaction on the part of the West in Syria.
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The uprising in Syria wasn't even on the horizon at that time
We let the entire region descend into chaos which has allowed ISIS to recruit, train and take territory.
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On that we may agree.
If the West and intervened earlier in Syria we could of potentially saved thousands of lives. But I guess we will have to wait for that UN mandate, heaven forbid our leaders make the tough choices.
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Intervened in what? And when?

I take it you're not proposing that the general mop-up should already have been extended westwards nigh on 8 years before Syria's people rose in protest against Assad?
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Chagos said:
Never thought I'd see the day where my particular cynicism would be interpreted as idealism. But thanks anyway.:mrgreen:

I seem to recall that a UN mandate was given on those counts. Resulting in what you outline with (bolded below) I also recall that last bit of interpretation being rejected by the very people that were supposedly interfered with. Notably Hans Blix just two weeks beofre the invasion got under way.
Where one can cite plenty of reasons, then and today, justifying the removal of Saddam, developments of the last 20 years are not it.
What you choose to ignore is that the very same were formed as direct result of the invasion. Having played no role of either note or even visibilityin Iraq before it. This sounds pretty much like rewarming the old corpse of that claim of Saddam and those elements (AQ, to be precise) having been in cahoots. The uprising in Syria wasn't even on the horizon at that time On that we may agree.Intervened in what? And when?

I take it you're not proposing that the general mop-up should already have been extended westwards nigh on 8 years before Syria's people rose in protest against Assad?
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ISIS was a very limited threat before the Syrian Civil War, if we had intervened back in 2013 instead of voting it down we could of helped bring a swift conclusion to the Civil War and in doing so prevented ISIS from gaining a massive foothold in the region. The notion that the invasion of Iraq is the reason for our current situation in Anbar/Syria is so simplistic and a bit of a kop out. ISIS have flourished amongst the chaos in Syria and I have a hard time blaming Blair for that.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
ISIS was a very limited threat before the Syrian Civil War, if we had intervened back in 2013 instead of voting it down we could of helped bring a swift conclusion to the Civil War and in doing so prevented ISIS from gaining a massive foothold in the region. The notion that the invasion of Iraq is the reason for our current situation in Anbar/Syria is so simplistic and a bit of a kop out. ISIS have flourished amongst the chaos in Syria and I have a hard time blaming Blair for that.
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Sorry but the only way to have prevented ISIS in Syria was to send in over 100k troops to occupy the place. The rebels have never been strong or unified enough to control the whole country so ISIS would have exploited any power vacuum. Terrorists like ISIS tend to exploit power vacuums, and they have done that as soon as Assad or even the rebels in areas were weak enough or not engaged enough. Why did ISIS even start up in Iraq? Power vacuum..
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
ISIS was a very limited threat before the Syrian Civil War, if we had intervened back in 2013 instead of voting it down we could of helped bring a swift conclusion to the Civil War and in doing so prevented ISIS from gaining a massive foothold in the region. The notion that the invasion of Iraq is the reason for our current situation in Anbar/Syria is so simplistic and a bit of a kop out. ISIS have flourished amongst the chaos in Syria and I have a hard time blaming Blair for that.
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Where this is a pretty strong deflection from the issue of the disruption created in Iraq having provided exactly the fertile ground needed for what was to become IS, what would a 2013 intervention in what was by then the Syrian civil war have looked like? Better said, the swift conclusion you envisage?

As to Blair being responsible for IS' flourishing wherever, one can argue at best the chaos that would foreseeably ensue from a premature war action with no plan for any aftermath. Not the specifics of IS or anything similar evolving and expanding to the dimensions (both in political influence and geography) into what it did. I stress, not the specifics.

That instability capable of spreading to the whole area and beyond would hold a high likelihood of coming into being was something that I argued even then. "Even then" constituting the aftermath of Desert Storm when Bush sr. commendably called a halt before an all-out invasion, even if that was (perhaps not solely) due to complying with the limits of the existing mandate.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

PeteEU said:
Sorry but the only way to have prevented ISIS in Syria was to send in over 100k troops to occupy the place. The rebels have never been strong or unified enough to control the whole country so ISIS would have exploited any power vacuum. Terrorists like ISIS tend to exploit power vacuums, and they have done that as soon as Assad or even the rebels in areas were weak enough or not engaged enough. Why did ISIS even start up in Iraq? Power vacuum..
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A power vacum started the Arab spring?
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Andalublue said:
Good point. Wish I'd made it. There are lying shysters on all sides, just look at the Brexit campaign.
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The fact is it wouldn't have mattered whatever political hue the prime minister of the day was.

Nothing will happen to Blair because he did exactly what the establishment required of him and bolstered the 'special relationship' which had been languishing in the post Cold War environment. They will now close ranks around him to ensure his continued immunity
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Chagos said:
did anybody say that?
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Pete did when he said a power vacuum caused the Syrian War.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

It's just tough, I want it to mean something. I'll probably take a break from posting for a while. Just a weird few days.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.
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Higgs, at the end of the day the findings ofthe report should remain abstract from your personal contribution. I've felt similar when people criticised conflicts where I was involved. It is very difficult to detach your lived experience of a messy conflict. You should be proud of what you've done, nothing else really matters.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.
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Yeah, rewind around 35 years from round about 2003 and memory gets me to share your sentiment. Advantage Chagos being that it's all a lot longer ago.

I can only second gunner's sentiment, your service needs detachment from the decisions you had no part in making.
Standing on its own as is proper, it shouldn't be conflated with them. I sketched as much, however briefly, in the last paragraph of post #30.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.
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Reading your replies here and statements from many of the bereaved families over the last few days has been heart wrenching and a reminder of the true realities of war and its consequences. I wish I could give you a hug Higgins and I'm sorry that you are even having to deal with this. We've been friends for quite a few years now and I know that you would always act honorably, proudly and with the very best intentions. As Gunner said, your personal contributions can in no way be associated with Blairs actions. Hang in there champ.
 
Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Higgins86 said:
Pete did when he said a power vacuum caused the Syrian War.
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No I did not say that. I said that a power vacuum in Syria caused the rise of ISIS. Assad lost control of areas due to the rebels and ISIS exploited that.

The Arab Spring has not so much to do with a power vacuum.. and yet it does. If we look at Egypt, Mubarak was getting old and losing his grip, which did create a defacto power vacuum that the Muslim Brotherhood could exploit with the help of the Americans and their idiotic "democracy" push in the middle east. Now in Libya it was a clear power vacuum that got ISIS in there, but the removal of Gadaffi was because of him losing his grip on power slowly and of course the wests banking of the rebels.. like in Syria. In both cases the power vacuum created in areas or on the whole, meant that ISIS could pop up its ugly head.

But on the rise of ISIS and its AL Q predecessor. That was a clear power vacuum situation. The removal of Saddam and the piss poor planning after the war, lead to a massive power vacuum in local areas around Iraq, which meant organisations like Al Q and ISIS had a fertile ground to start and grow, along with local warlords (Afghanistan is a good example) and so on.
 
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