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Anti-Semitism Row: Now Councillor Suspended

William Rea said:
I'm trying to keep within the restrictions of discussing the merits of this outside of the IP Forum
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Yes, I'm also hoping for the mods' understanding that this is actually still a European issue (primarily of definitions and the fight over them)
so in general terms, I would argue that, unless it is made in a 'satirical' way, it is a ridiculous comment to make post hoc but, it is not a crime to think it and, I don't believe that it is up to us try to control what others can think or express unless it has a direct causal link to actual harm; I can see that it might also be hyperbole to try to make a point.
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I don't see how anyone's thoughts can be controlled anyway, but anyone spouting rubbish can sure be called on it, that "rubbish" including self-appointment with labels the nature of which one is ignorant about or assigning them, equally ignorant, to others.

In general, attack the ridiculous comment but for goodness sake stop trying to police what we are allowed or not allowed to think or say.
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Where I'm concerned, let everyone think what they may and let them say it if that's their desire. It's only that when things leave the mouth or flow from the typing finger that the season is open.

Being an anti-semite and being a fool equate in the case of Naz Shah, Livingstone (as the current example) being a fool does not support the equation.
 
Arcana XV said:
Okay, I'm a little confused here guys. Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe I'm being overly literal, but to me words actually have meaning. Especially in this crazy world we're living in where everything you say and do can instantly end up on the internet for the entire world to dissect and the media to create outrageous headlines out of.

So here's my issue: I see and hear a lot of anti-Israel comments coming from the British left. Why are the headlines calling this anti-Semitism? Why the conflation of two very different terms? Does the media not realize how dangerous it is to do this? Not that I expect anything better from that ****ed up profession these days, but this is tabloid journalism and it pisses me off because most people will take it at face value without any critical analysis of what they're being fed.

That said, just to be clear and to prevent my own words from being twisted or misunderstood, I do not approve of any of these anti-Israel comments. Although I do support the right of all these idiots to voice their ignorant opinions and to deal with the consequences of what they say publicly.

So, can someone point me to an actual anti-Semitic comment or is all of this just anti-Israel drivel? And am I the only one actually bothered by this??
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Well Arcana, the simple truth is that there is a huge difference between criticizing a position of the Israeli government and between the attacks heard so far. We've been on this website for ages and I've spoken time after time about the difference between anti-Israeli opinions and anti-Semitic ones, but I've also pointed out how often people who wish to promote antisemitic opinions do so under the mask of anti-Israeli rethoric so to avoid the expected confrontation. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and while attacking it isn't equal to an attack on the Jewish people, very frequently that's exactly what it turns to be. If there was a single country for Muslims most Islamophobic remarks would likely be hidden as opposition to that country. If there was a single nation with black people being a majority in it, it likely would be frequently used as an excuse for racism against blacks. Israel is no different than those hypothetical cases.

And to be specific, Hitler being "a supporter of Zionism" isn't an anti-Israeli position, it's an antisemitic one. It tries to rewrite history and paint Hitler as a supporter of the Jewish people's plight for a nation, something that he was the extreme opposite of being the ruler who is responsible for attempting to eradicate the Jewish people from the world and systematically murdering six millions of them. The position that "Zionists" are in control of a British university, well, that has not much to do with Israel either. And yes, suggesting to destroy the state of Israel isn't about an opposition to one Israeli government policy or another you will agree. Also let's not confuse ourselves the idiots who suggest that someone should destroy Israel and move its citizens to the US don't wish to relocate its Arab citizens to the US as well, only the Jewish ones.
 
Apocalypse said:
Well Arcana, the simple truth is that there is a huge difference between criticizing a position of the Israeli government and between the attacks heard so far. We've been on this website for ages and I've spoken time after time about the difference between anti-Israeli opinions and anti-Semitic ones, but I've also pointed out how often people who wish to promote antisemitic opinions do so under the mask of anti-Israeli rethoric so to avoid the expected confrontation. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and while attacking it isn't equal to an attack on the Jewish people, very frequently that's exactly what it turns to be. If there was a single country for Muslims most Islamophobic remarks would likely be hidden as opposition to that country. If there was a single nation with black people being a majority in it, it likely would be frequently used as an excuse for racism against blacks. Israel is no different than those hypothetical cases.

And to be specific, Hitler being "a supporter of Zionism" isn't an anti-Israeli position, it's an antisemitic one. It tries to rewrite history and paint Hitler as a supporter of the Jewish people's plight for a nation, something that he was the extreme opposite of being the ruler who is responsible for attempting to eradicate the Jewish people from the world and systematically murdering six millions of them. The position that "Zionists" are in control of a British university, well, that has not much to do with Israel either. And yes, suggesting to destroy the state of Israel isn't about an opposition to one Israeli government policy or another you will agree. Also let's not confuse ourselves the idiots who suggest that someone should destroy Israel and move its citizens to the US don't wish to relocate its Arab citizens to the US as well, only the Jewish ones.
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Well, there's one thing we can agree on in there; Your posts have poisoned the well with accusations of 'antisemitism' on this website for ages.
 
William Rea said:
Well, there's one thing we can agree on in there; Your posts have poisoned the well with accusations of 'antisemitism' on this website for ages.
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Not once have I accused someone of antisemitism without proper evidence Willy, you know better.
In fact the only active member I recall accusing of subtle antisemitism is PeteEU for saying that the Jewish communities in Europe are "calling wolf" on the antisemitic attacks against them.

Nice try.
 
Apocalypse said:
Not once have I accused someone of antisemitism without proper evidence Willy, you know better.
In fact the only active member I recall accusing of subtle antisemitism is PeteEU for saying that the Jewish communities in Europe are "calling wolf" on the antisemitic attacks against them.

Nice try.
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You understand what poisoning the well means?
 
Apocalypse said:
Do you understand what "not once" means?
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Yeah, in some cases it means never but, I will take it to mean, 'not once but, more than once' in your case.
 
William Rea said:
Yeah, in some cases it means never but, I will take it to mean, 'not once but, more than once' in your case.
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And "poisoning the well" is a well known antisemitic canard that dates back to the Medieval Ages, if ignoring context and manipulating words' meaning is what we're doing here apparently.
 
Chagos said:
I'd say there's a difference between being critical of Israeli policy itself (towards anyone else, yet usually the Palestinians) and advocating the elimination of their state by relocating the whole people to some other place.

The latter is not simply anti-Israel, it's anti Jewish. Alone on account of the nature of the state as anyone should be able to see it, i.e. Jewish homeland.

There is an equal difference between lambasting (say) Hamas policy (of wanting to destroy) and advocating that all Palestinians be assimilated into neighboring Arab countries, except in the latter case any accusation of that stance being Islamophobe would somehow miss the mark. Wouldn't make it any less disgusting though.

In other words one can be critical of Israel and its policies and to construe such critical stance as being anti-semitic is rubbish. Call for the elimination of the state in the process though and don't whine at the flak that'll come.
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I can sort of see your point, but it still doesn't clarify much for me. "Moving a country", as retarded as that idea is, does not mean that the country ceases to exist. And as far as I know none of these morons have gone so far as to call for the end of the Jewish people. So, thanks for trying but I'm not convinced this is anti-Semitism.
 
Apocalypse said:
Well Arcana, the simple truth is that there is a huge difference between criticizing a position of the Israeli government and between the attacks heard so far. We've been on this website for ages and I've spoken time after time about the difference between anti-Israeli opinions and anti-Semitic ones, but I've also pointed out how often people who wish to promote antisemitic opinions do so under the mask of anti-Israeli rethoric so to avoid the expected confrontation. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and while attacking it isn't equal to an attack on the Jewish people, very frequently that's exactly what it turns to be. If there was a single country for Muslims most Islamophobic remarks would likely be hidden as opposition to that country. If there was a single nation with black people being a majority in it, it likely would be frequently used as an excuse for racism against blacks. Israel is no different than those hypothetical cases.

And to be specific, Hitler being "a supporter of Zionism" isn't an anti-Israeli position, it's an antisemitic one. It tries to rewrite history and paint Hitler as a supporter of the Jewish people's plight for a nation, something that he was the extreme opposite of being the ruler who is responsible for attempting to eradicate the Jewish people from the world and systematically murdering six millions of them. The position that "Zionists" are in control of a British university, well, that has not much to do with Israel either. And yes, suggesting to destroy the state of Israel isn't about an opposition to one Israeli government policy or another you will agree. Also let's not confuse ourselves the idiots who suggest that someone should destroy Israel and move its citizens to the US don't wish to relocate its Arab citizens to the US as well, only the Jewish ones.
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Thanks for your reply Apocalypse. I realize that many of the comments in the headlines lately get very close to that fine line between plain old criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. However, I don't believe the line has been clearly crossed. You mention Islamophobia and this is exactly what I'm being reminded of. I remember the countless threads where Islam was being discussed in the context of international terrorism and where it was impossible to do so without being accused of Islamophobia. I haven't been around as much lately, but I suspect this is still going on.

I'm not saying that the people in question are not anti-Semites. They very well could be. I'm just very reluctant of making that call when I don't see any lines being crossed. Anti-Semite, Islamophobe, racist... these are not words that should be thrown around as easily and irresponsibly as they are thrown around these days. So far, all I'm hearing are variations of "If Israel did not exist, the ME would be all unicorns and rainbows". It's a stupid, ignorant, historically laughable political position.
 
mbig said:
I did a string on this 6 Years ago.
Actually was thanked by Andalublue for it in one of his posts.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/68064-anti-semitism-anti-zionism-crosses-line.html

Beside my prelude discussion, the main content was:
A piece on this by Alan Dershowitz on HuffingtonPost. July 2005.
When Legit Criticism Crosses the Anti-Semitism Line
Also like the quote by Thomas Friedman.

The EU commission/eumc considers comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany anti-semitic.
Not to mention, many anti-semites just use simple/transparent substitution.
It's not any less ansitisemitic because someone substitutes 'Zionist' or 'Israel' for 'Jew/Jewish.'
ie 'Jewish Bankers' is now 'Zionist Bankers'; Jewish Control is now ZOG, etc.
aka 'Proxy anti-semitism', the 'New anti-semitism.'
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I generally like Dershowitz, but about half of his points are either vague or trying to score some kind of emotional response that is completely lost on me .

Points 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 13, 15, 16, 18 and 20 I have no argument with at all, they're perfectly valid.

Point 2 is a bit iffy. On the one hand I can see how being compared to the very people who exterminated 6 million of your own would sting. On the other hand, who hasn't been compared to the Nazis?? Godwin's Law, hello?

All his other points are highly subjective and debatable.
 
Arcana XV said:
I can sort of see your point, but it still doesn't clarify much for me. "Moving a country", as retarded as that idea is, does not mean that the country ceases to exist. And as far as I know none of these morons have gone so far as to call for the end of the Jewish people. So, thanks for trying but I'm not convinced this is anti-Semitism.
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Well, considering that the country is Jewish and that the "plan" doesn't seem to include getting the inhabitants' d'accord on the matter, I'd call it anti Jewish as much as I'd call moving Catalunya to Madagascar anti-Catalonian.

Expelling Jews from Germany when that plan still seemed to hold some promise was as anti-semitic as later killing them was.
 
Chagos said:
Well, considering that the country is Jewish and that the "plan" doesn't seem to include getting the inhabitants' d'accord on the matter, I'd call it anti Jewish as much as I'd call moving Catalunya to Madagascar anti-Catalonian.

Expelling Jews from Germany when that plan still seemed to hold some promise was as anti-semitic as later killing them was.
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On your first point, I'm still not sure it's anti-Semitism or simply the solution an uneducated mind would come up with to solve the problems in the ME.

I totally agree with your second point, though. No argument there.

And what do you have against Madagascar?? What have they done to deserve an injection of Catalonians?? :cool:
 
Arcana XV said:
On your first point, I'm still not sure it's anti-Semitism or simply the solution an uneducated mind would come up with to solve the problems in the ME.
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Being an uneducated idiot provides no mitigation for being an anti-semite in the very same breath. And let's have uneducated minds keep their cotton pickin' mawlers of that problem altogether, thank you very much.
I totally agree with your second point, though. No argument there.
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I don't see much difference (at best by degree only) between kicking a people out of one's own country and being instrumental in getting them kicked out of somewhere else altogether.
And what do you have against Madagascar?? What have they done to deserve an injection of Catalonians?? :cool:
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I'll work on the principle that they musta done something. Nobody is without sin. :mrgreen:
 
Chagos said:
Being an uneducated idiot provides no mitigation for being an anti-semite in the very same breath. And let's have uneducated minds keep their cotton pickin' mawlers of that problem altogether, thank you very much.
I don't see much difference (at best by degree only) between kicking a people out of one's own country and being instrumental in getting them kicked out of somewhere else altogether.
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The difference lies in the motivation for it, I guess. Germany blamed the Jews, actual living, breathing people for all their ills. The ones who want to move Israel out of the ME blame the country, a more abstract concept. It's a fine line, I agree. One these people might have become experts at not crossing.

I'll work on the principle that they musta done something. Nobody is without sin. :mrgreen:
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Harsh punishment, tho. Them Catalonians ain't right. :lol:
 
Arcana XV said:
......................Harsh punishment, tho. Them Catalonians ain't right. :lol:
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Maybe we should settle a sizeable bunch of Madagassy in Catalunya as well. That'll teach 'em both.:mrgreen:
 
3 counsellors suspended from the labour party today (including the one I posted who was caught by Guido Fawkes website)
 
Chagos said:
More like 50 over the last two months ~
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Just horrible. As the article says though maybe all those brand new members who followed in Jeremy Corbyn's election success need more vetting now. Alternately, the party is bring more vigilant - though we have Guido Fawkes to thank for highlighting others.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Just horrible. As the article says though maybe all those brand new members who followed in Jeremy Corbyn's election success need more vetting now. Alternately, the party is bring more vigilant - though we have Guido Fawkes to thank for highlighting others.
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Well, if they hadn't acknowledged what looks to be a trend before, they've certainly been put on their toes by now.

With Shah, Mulla, Aziz and Hussain only being the ones so far known, looks like the whole Pakistani crowd needs vetting.

Where the Muslim bashers will no doubt be pleased, the irony for me lies in those most geographically and culturally removed from the people they think they're championing, being the most foolish in vocalizing upon what's actually none of their political business. Additionally it goes to show their lacking awareness of which nation's government, on lousy historical track record in that Middle Eastern affair alone, should be the most motivated in STFU about the area altogether. Which, had they any awareness of history, would of necessity have them include themselves.

After all Britain played a major role in screwing up the whole Mandate affair to the point that the area suffers from til today.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
3 counsellors suspended from the labour party today (including the one I posted who was caught by Guido Fawkes website)
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And they were all Muslims - as, I think, were all the previously suspended councilors.

Now here is a fact which is surprisingly ignored. Islam hated Jews before Israel existed and would go on hating Jews if it was destroyed. The school books and the media of Arab countries is are saturated by extreme anti-Jewish propaganda.

Cartoons from the Arab World

Just one set of examples. So no wonder that Labour anti-semites think of themselves as mainstream.
 
Sweden said:
And they were all Muslims - as, I think, were all the previously suspended councilors.

Now here is a fact which is surprisingly ignored. Islam hated Jews before Israel existed and would go on hating Jews if it was destroyed. The school books and the media of Arab countries is are saturated by extreme anti-Jewish propaganda.

Cartoons from the Arab World

Just one set of examples. So no wonder that Labour anti-semites think of themselves as mainstream.
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As one has come to expect, your knowledge of history shows once again to be appalling. Up til the 1930s and 1940s Jews were doing quite all right across Northern Africa and in such places of the M.E. as Iraq.

The cartoons are of the 2000s BTW.
 
That picture in fact provides a great solution, because of course we know that western people, enlightened majority pro Israeli Americans in particular, are obviously not antisemitic and can't possibly mind 'coexistence' and 'peace' with a Jewish state. The only antisemitism here in fact is with Norman Finklestein suggesting that Jews would get only a tiny portion of the US territories, I think dividing the US by half for a two state solution is completely reasonable and cannot possibly be opposed because, again, Americans are not antisemitic. No more terrorism will poor innocent Israeli soldiers and civilians face, and by extension, world wide antisemitism will decrease. Americans whose existence is problematic for the democratic nature of this hypothetical Zionist [project can just move somewhere else, perhaps to Europe, the ancestral homeland for most of them.
 
Move the Jews to somewhere else. Wow, what original thinking. I place this right up there with "I know how to solve the Middle East issue: turn it into a glass parking lot!"
 
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